Title for Camilla

[BeatrixFan]

A title doesn't become defunct because of the popularity of one holder. If that was the way it worked, we wouldn't have a King or Queen at all. As for a ton of die-hard Di fans putting up huge protests, a steam roller would soon sort that out. Seriously, if they've got nothing better to do than protest about someone's name then they really need a trip to Africa to see some real problems to crow about.

 

[Henri M.]

I honestly don't care what title she gets when Charles becomes king. If she wants the title "Princess Consort" that's fine, but if she becomes Queen Camilla that's fine as well. The only title I think that she shouldn't have had was Princess of Wales. That title is so associated with Diana, and I know that William's wife, and William's son's wife, and William's grandson's wife will probably carry it if the men are created Prince of Wales, but I think that Camilla, being a huge part of the dissentigration of Charles and Diana's marriage, shouldn't carry the title. It's too risky, and a ton of die-hard Diana fans would put up huge protests, because they won't be too happy about it.

So if Crown Princess Mary is hugely popular in Denmark, then her probably far less popular successor, the spouse to the then Crown Prince Christian should not be known as 'The Crown Princess' because this title is associated with Mary? That is the translation of what you say about the title Princess of Wales not to be used by Camilla.

Neither Diana nor Camilla were (are) a Princess in their own right. Their title was (is) purely out of social custom and courteoisie to address female spouses of titled men with their husband's title(s).

Camilla Rosemary Shand formerly Parker Bowles is rightfully married to The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Etc. and therefore has the same "rights" on being styled in the same way as the Prince's first spouse.

Just like Caroline Hutton is as much the Countess Spencer as her husband's first spouse (Victoria Lockwood) once was.



It was wrong by the Court to smuggle the proud title Princess of Wales under the carpet out of fear for a possible negative reaction. (For so far no any fear concerning Camilla has become true, by the way).

 

[acdc1]

In my above post, I didn't mean that Camilla wasn't "worthy" of the title, or not as good as Diana, etc. I really like Camilla, actually a little better than I did Diana (she's not as, well, odd about some things as Diana was). I'm saying that it might cause controversy if Camilla gets the title of the woman whose marriage she had a pretty strong hand in breaking up (for future reference, she wasn't the ONLY hand, Diana had quite a few "friends" as well, but I think that it was Camilla who got the War of the Walses started). I think Charles and Camilla also knew how much controversy it would cause, so they went to calling her HRH the Duchess of Cornwall instead, which I think is also a rightful title.

 

[selrahc4]

I'm saying that it might cause controversy if Camilla gets the title of the woman whose marriage she had a pretty strong hand in breaking up

That's why I think she should definitely be known as Queen when the time comes. It's a title Diana never held so there's little connection.

 

[Roslyn]

I personally hope that Camilla is known as Queen Consort, but whatever she ends up being called she will provide the sort of support and companionship and love that Charles needs and quite clearly thrives on and which will make him a far better King than he would have been had they not married.

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet"

 

[branchg]

I would generally agree with you but what concerns me is that the British Royal family seems to just change the rules and do what they desire as far as titles are concerned without going through the proper methods as in issuing new Letters Patent. Although legally the Duchess is HRH The Princess of Wales, they just chose to ignore that and she goes by the prince's secondary title. The case with Louise of Wessex is very similar, a royal princess just using a different style without legally changing it. Both have set a precedence. So when Charles becomes king I can envision the Duchess adopting the title Princess Consort as planned without going through the process of legally changing the law.

No one is "ignoring" the fact Camilla is also Princess of Wales. As with any woman who marries the heir to the throne, she enjoys all of the titles and styles traditionally granted or automatically succeeded to by her husband. For obvious reasons, she has chosen to be styled as Duchess of Cornwall, but her married title and rank if Charles had no other titles is "HRH The Princess Charles". She is still a princess of the UK by marriage regardless of which peerage she is styled by.

Louise is a similar situation. By right of the 1917 Letters Patent, she is automatically HRH Princess Louise of Wessex as a male-line grandaughter of The Queen. At her parents' request, she is currently styled as the daughter of an Earl, which is fine because she IS the daughter of an Earl. Assuming the current letters patent remain in force, she can assume her superior rank and title at any time in the future.

Once Charles becomes King, these situations no longer can be applied because we are now dealing with a very different scenario. As the wife of The King, Camilla assumes automatically the title and precedence of HM The Queen in her own right. If her husband dies five minutes after his mother, she is HM Queen Camilla for the rest of her life as a dowager queen. Only Parliament can take away her rank and title as the wife of the King.

Being "HRH The Princess Consort" means she is a princess of the UK in her own right like Prince Philip is. But how can this be when she is already Queen? It can't without legislation being passed by Parliament taking away her superior rank and title, leaving The Sovereign free to create a lesser one in its place.

She cannot be "styled" as a princess of the UK when she is legally Queen Consort and holds superior precedence and title.

 

[BillW65]

No one is "ignoring" the fact Camilla is also Princess of Wales. As with any woman who marries the heir to the throne, she enjoys all of the titles and styles traditionally granted or automatically succeeded to by her husband. For obvious reasons, she has chosen to be styled as Duchess of Cornwall, but her married title and rank if Charles had no other titles is "HRH The Princess Charles". She is still a princess of the UK by marriage regardless of which peerage she is styled by.

Louise is a similar situation. By right of the 1917 Letters Patent, she is automatically HRH Princess Louise of Wessex as a male-line grandaughter of The Queen. At her parents' request, she is currently styled as the daughter of an Earl, which is fine because she IS the daughter of an Earl. Assuming the current letters patent remain in force, she can assume her superior rank and title at any time in the future.

Once Charles becomes King, these situations no longer can be applied because we are now dealing with a very different scenario. As the wife of The King, Camilla assumes automatically the title and precedence of HM The Queen in her own right. If her husband dies five minutes after his mother, she is HM Queen Camilla for the rest of her life as a dowager queen. Only Parliament can take away her rank and title as the wife of the King.

Being "HRH The Princess Consort" means she is a princess of the UK in her own right like Prince Philip is. But how can this be when she is already Queen? It can't without legislation being passed by Parliament taking away her superior rank and title, leaving The Sovereign free to create a lesser one in its place.

She cannot be "styled" as a princess of the UK when she is legally Queen Consort and holds superior precedence and title.

I agree and understand all of that. I just wonder if anything will be legally done when Camilla becomes Queen? I personally do not think Parliament will try and strip her of her legal title and position as Queen Consort. I believe she may just use the style and title of HRH The Princess Consort as was suggested when marrying Charles. I do understand that it creates a situation where the Queen would be holding a lesser title than what she legally already would have.

 

[branchg]

The title does not currently exist and has to be created by The Sovereign via letters patent. If Parliament agrees a Queen Consort can legally hold the title, rank and precedence of HM The Queen, while also being created a princess of the UK, then it is possible for Camilla to hold a lesser style.

I do not see how they can accomplish this because legally either you are The Queen or HRH The Princess Consort. You cannot be both.

 

[Roslyn]

If the legislation to change the rule that the wife of the King is automatically Queen is left till Charles becomes King, such a move would amount to taking away the title Camilla would have automatically acquired at the moment the current Queen died. If it's done during the current Queen's reign, it would still be a rather personal shot at Camilla, I think. The MP's speeches for and against the bill would make very interesting reading.

I don't think it's going to happen.

 

[muriel]

As King, can Charles not issue letters patent awarding Camilla the title of HRH The Princess Consort? Does this have to be ratified by Parliament? I think the intention would be for Camilla to legally be Queen, but be referred to as HRH Princess Consort - quite like the current arrangement whereby she is the Princess of Wales but is referred to as Doc.

 

[BillW65]

The title does not currently exist and has to be created by The Sovereign via letters patent. If Parliament agrees a Queen Consort can legally hold the title, rank and precedence of HM The Queen, while also being created a princess of the UK, then it is possible for Camilla to hold a lesser style.

I do not see how they can accomplish this because legally either you are The Queen or HRH The Princess Consort. You cannot be both.

The wife of a king is automatically a queen (consort as apposed to [FONT=verdana, arial]a queen regnant like Elizabeth II) there is no need to create a letters patent to create her as such.

I do not think there will be any legal proceedings to take away her title of queen when Charles becomes king. However, she just may not use that title and be known as HRH the Princess Consort without any letters patten or legislation to alter her legal title. I think it will be very similar to what has been done to Louise of Wessex. Her title has not been taken away, she just doesn't use it.
[/FONT]

 

[Iluvbertie]

The wife of a king is automatically a queen (consort as apposed to [FONT=verdana, arial]a queen regnant like Elizabeth II) there is no need to create a letters patent to create her as such. [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial]I do not think there will be any legal proceedings to take away her title of queen when Charles becomes king. However, she just may not use that title and be known as HRH the Princess Consort without any letters patten or legislation to alter her legal title. I think it will be very similar to what has been done to Louise of Wessex. Her title has not been taken away, she just doesn't use it. [/FONT]

The difference is that Louise is being styled as the daughter of an earl, which she is of course. She is using a title that she is entitled to use even though she has legally a right to a higher title - like Camilla using DOC rather than POW.

However, once the present Queen dies Camilla becomes Queen Consort as Charles becomes King. As King he doesn't have lesser titles in the same way as he does now and as such Camilla can't just use a lesser title as one doesn't exist. It will have to be created for her and legislation will be needed to strip her of her right to take the status, styles and titles of her husband.

 

[NGalitzine]

Camilla automatically becomes Queen the moment Charles becomes King. British women take their rank and title from their husbands, assuming he is of higher rank. Queen Consort is not a title it is a rank. The king's wife is simple the Queen. Still I assume that King Charles III could issue a public statement that his wife would be known as HRH The Princess Consort, just as she is now known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall even though she is also legally HRH The Princess of Wales. No Letters Patent required for either decision.

 

[Elspeth]

The difference there is that she IS the Duchess of Cornwall, so there's nothing to be done in order for her to be known as such. However, as Queen Consort, she won't be Princess Consort, so she'd have to be known as something she isn't. For the "Princess Consort" stuff to make any more sense than being known as Bozo the Clown, she'd have to actually be it as well as be known as it, and that would require legislation.

 

[BillW65]

The difference is that Louise is being styled as the daughter of an earl, which she is of course. She is using a title that she is entitled to use even though she has legally a right to a higher title - like Camilla using DOC rather than POW.

However, once the present Queen dies Camilla becomes Queen Consort as Charles becomes King. As King he doesn't have lesser titles in the same way as he does now and as such Camilla can't just use a lesser title as one doesn't exist. It will have to be created for her and legislation will be needed to strip her of her right to take the status, styles and titles of her husband.

Agreed. I think you said it better than I did.

 

[NGalitzine]

Well at The Queen Mothers funeral the Earl Marshal in announceing her titles referred to her as Princess Elizabeth, in addition to her other titles and honours. That would seem to suggest that a Queen consort is also a princess, so its not a big leap to simply choose to be known as Princess Consort.She would be Queen in fact but known as something else. The monarchy is afterall a very adaptable institution.

I actually believe Camilla should use the title of Queen, but if another title is chosen I doubt very much that the legislative route will be taken because that would open up a debate on the monarchy both in the UK and in other commonwealth nations which no one would want.

 

[Elspeth]

It's very strange that they would have done that because she was never Princess Elizabeth.

Maybe Chrissy or branchg can explain this:

Thus it hath pleased Almighty God to take out of this transitory life unto His Divine Mercy the late Most High, Most Mighty and Most Excellent Princess Elizabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother, Lady of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, Lady of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle, Lady of the Imperial Order of the Crown of India, Grand Master and Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order upon whom had been conferred the Royal Victorian Chain, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, Dame Grand Cross of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St John, Relict of His Majesty King George the Sixth and Mother of Her Most Excellent Majesty Elizabeth The Second by the Grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, Sovereign of the Most Noble Order of the Garter, whom may God preserve and bless with long life, health and honour and all worldly happiness.

 

[philqc]

Just call her The Queen Mother II.... she's always wearing her jewels....

 

[wbenson]

I think "Princess Elizabeth" is just a very old way of referring to a Queen consort. In accession proclamations they refer to monarchs as "the Royal Prince(ss) Name X" when they aren't a prince(ss).

 

[muriel]

The difference there is that she IS the Duchess of Cornwall, so there's nothing to be done in order for her to be known as such. However, as Queen Consort, she won't be Princess Consort, so she'd have to be known as something she isn't. For the "Princess Consort" stuff to make any more sense than being known as Bozo the Clown, she'd have to actually be it as well as be known as it, and that would require legislation.

I appreciate the point you are making about Camila not automatically holding the title of Princess Consort, and hence, Charles as monarch can create her as one. She will still legally be Queen Consort (as she is PoW now), but this would in effect be no more than recognition by Charles of the public will (and no different to Bozo the Clown!) I personally think Camilla should be Queen, but if there remains strong opposition to her holding the title, Charles will just have to bow to the public will.

We have already seen the softening of public opinion towards Camilla in the last 2 years, and I hope in time, Camilla will continue to endear herself to the larger public. She will never win everyboy over, but she will be doing well if she can get the opinion polls to around 50% of the public accepting her as Queen. To achieve that, I think she just has to continue to work hard, increase the number of public engagements she does each year (so that she does not come at the bottom of the unofficial league table published each year) and hope the Queen lives for another 10 years!

 

[Henri M.]

HRH The Duchess of Lancaster

As spouse to HRH The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Etc. Camilla Windsor-Mountbatten is -by common law- entitled to use her husband's titles and styles. She however wants to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. (And in Scotland HRH The Duchess of Rothesay).

Thinking furtherer in this way:

As spouse to HM The King, Duke of Lancaster, Etc. Camilla is -by common law- entitled to use her husband's titles and styles. She can express the wish only to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster?

 

[wbenson]

As spouse to HRH The Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Etc. Camilla Windsor-Mountbatten is -by common law- entitled to use her husband's titles and styles. She however wants to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. (And in Scotland HRH The Duchess of Rothesay).

Thinking furtherer in this way:

As spouse to HM The King, Duke of Lancaster, Etc. Camilla is -by common law- entitled to use her husband's titles and styles. She can express the wish only to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster?

The idea that the Sovereign holds the title of Duke of Lancaster is dubious at best. Once a title of nobility merges into the crown, it ceases to exist. The sovereign receives the revenue from the Duchy of Lancaster, yes, but that is because the title of Duke of Lancaster (and thus the funds) merged with the Crown. The use of the title is by tradition, not fact, as there ceased to be a Duke of Lancaster in 1422.

It would be slightly better to use the title Duchess of Normandy, as the title Duke of Normandy was granted by a foreign monarch. But even then, she would still use her husbands only style, which would be Majesty. In either case, she would be "Her Majesty the Duchess of N."

 

[branchg]

[FONT=verdana, arial]However, she just may not use that title and be known as HRH the Princess Consort without any letters patten or legislation to alter her legal title. I think it will be very similar to what has been done to Louise of Wessex. Her title has not been taken away, she just doesn't use it. [/FONT]

That's what Clarence House would like everyone to believe, but it simply is not true. Once Charles becomes King, Camilla's rights and precedence automatically are upgraded via statutory succession as HM The Queen.

Any deviation from the constitutional precedents rest with Parliament and require consent from the Crown Commonwealth as well. She is no longer a princess of the UK by marriage once her husband is King and holds superior rank and precedence in her own right as Queen Consort.

Louise is the daughter of an Earl and a princess by right of the 1917 Letters Patent. She can use either style without controversy.

 

[branchg]

Well at The Queen Mothers funeral the Earl Marshal in announceing her titles referred to her as Princess Elizabeth, in addition to her other titles and honours.

It is customary at royal funerals to announce all of the titles and styles accumulated over your lifetime, whether they apply currently or not.

I assume The Queen consented to the style of "Princess Elizabeth" even though her mother was never a princess in her own right. She was "HRH The Princess Albert" upon marriage to The Duke of York.

 

[branchg]

She can express the wish only to be known with one of the titles she can use: HRH The Duchess of Lancaster?

No, because her husband is "HM The King, The Duke of Lancaster" as a style only when visiting the duchy on official business. It is no longer held in the peerage since it merged with the Crown and refers only to The Sovereign.

 

[selrahc4]

How timely this quote from the latest Court Circular is!
Link

Her Majesty, Duke of Lancaster received the Lord Shuttleworth (Chairman of the Duchy of Lancaster) and Mr. Paul Clarke (Chief Executive).

 

[Jo of Palatine]

How timely this quote from the latest Court Circular is!
Link

Is there an archive of the Court Circular? Then one could look if there ever was a quote saying: Their Majesties, Duke and Duchess of Lancaster...

I found this on the International Herald Tribune site: a report from 1907:

NEW YORK: 1907: Royal Visit To Paris
LONDON: King Edward and Queen Alexandra left for Paris yesterday [Feb. 1], says "Lloyd's Weekly," to pass a quiet week there, as private persons, under the style of the Duke and Duchess of Lancaster. Without any ceremony or escort, the Royal couple and Princess Victoria drove from Buckingham Palace to the Wilton Road entrance of Victoria Station, where they were vigorously cheered by a large crowd. The King wore morning dress, with a heavy brown overcoat and a bowler hat. The Queen was in black, and wore a bunch of carnations at her waist, while Princess Victoria had on a gray costume. The Prince of Wales and his eldest son were in the Royal saloon to see them off, and among those present were the Hon. Derek Keppel, Sir Edward Henry, Chief Commissioner of Police; General Sir Dighton Probyn and Dr. Nansen, the Norwegian Minister.

 

[branchg]

The point remains the same. It is strictly a style, not a title, and has never been used for the wife of The King. She cannot be HRH or Duchess of Lancaster because she is HM The Queen.

 

[jcbcode99]

Quite right. Camilla will have the right to be known, upon Charles' ascension, as Queen Camilla. I don't understand why everyone is so up in arms about it. She doesn't use her title of Princess of Wales because it is linked to Diana--but Queen Diana would have never been used so why should there be controversy? If Andrew ever remarries, should his new wife take a title other than Duchess of York because the title is so closely associated with Sarah? I think the RF messed up when they announced that Camilla would be known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and upon Charles ascension the Princess Consort. They should have left the Princess Consort out of it entirely.
But, be that as it may, the title of Duchess suits Camilla quite well; I think Princess does not. Queen will suit her well, too.

 

[wymanda]

Quite right. Camilla will have the right to be known, upon Charles' ascension, as Queen Camilla. I don't understand why everyone is so up in arms about it. She doesn't use her title of Princess of Wales because it is linked to Diana--but Queen Diana would have never been used so why should there be controversy? If Andrew ever remarries, should his new wife take a title other than Duchess of York because the title is so closely associated with Sarah? I think the RF messed up when they announced that Camilla would be known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and upon Charles ascension the Princess Consort. They should have left the Princess Consort outof it entirely.
But, be that as it may, the title of Duchess suits Camilla quite well; I think Princess does not. Queen will suit her well, too.

I couldn't agree more. Camilla will make a great Queen and will be a wonderful asset to the nation & to the Commonwealth.