The Windsors and Europe

[Warren]

That is just not so. Apart from the fact that the Stuarts have a stronger claim to the Scottish and British thrones, there is a gentleman in Australia who has a stronger claim to the English throne than the Windsors. There was a programme about him on British t.v. last year.

Back to Duke Franz of Bavaria I see. When will he be making his move to claim the British Crown, I wonder? And a TV programme?

I'd say the best argument for the legitimacy of Elizabeth II is that her antecedents were given the Crown by an Act of Parliament, expressing the Will of the People. Can't get much more legitimate than that. Unlesss you are saying a Wittelsbach Prince and a TV show have a greater legitimacy than the Parliament?

 

[hofburg]

EIIR's own advisers have stated she had to be forced to attend the funeral. She was, according to them, planning to send Charles, but her advisers claimed that, because she was on holiday, it would look churlish of her not to attend herself. No one connected to EIIR has ever said she went because she wanted to; they've always said she went because she was told it would look bad. That doesn't speak of a special relationship between the two to me. But then again, EIIR is criticized by her own family members and lifelong friends for her reactions to death, so it's not surprising. Mountbatten's daughters have criticized her for never actually saying to them that she was sorry for the loss of their father, though she wrote a six-page letter when one of them lost a dog.

Could you name the source of this information, please?

 

[Idriel]

Your post was very interesting Iain (not that agree with it all), particularly the part about Scotland. I already knew about the bland coat, I didn't knew about the Crown episode.
I am actually stunned and shocked EII, that I admire greatly, would make such gross and blatant mistakes (not even talking about being plain rude).
Just a remark:

I’m sure the other monarchs must talk among themselves about Elizabeth’s absence but I’m sure they are better off without her. She would probably be a party pooper.

I doubt that statement very much, as she is renown for having a great sense of humour.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Just another example of the 'mightier than thou' attitude mentioned earlier

Well she is 'mightier than thou'. I follow Winston Churchill's wonderful words, shortly after the Queen came to the throne. "We have a plan that we think works well. And here it is. The Queen can do no wrong". Never was a truer word said.

 

[Idriel]

I'd say the best argument for the legitimacy of Elizabeth II is that her antecedents were given the Crown by an Act of Parliament, expressing the Will of the People. Can't get much more legitimate than that. Unlesss you are saying a Wittelsbach Prince and a TV show have a greater legitimacy than the Parliament?

Yes I agree, this legitimacy stuff is just a pastime for history buffs and is quite ridiculous.
At the end of the day, British people see EII as their legitimate Queen and no-one else. That is the only thing that matters ultimately.

 

[hofburg]

Well she is 'mightier than thou'. I follow Winston Churchill's wonderful words, shortly after the Queen came to the throne. "We have a plan that we think works well. And here it is. The Queen can do no wrong". Never was a truer word said.

One of the most redicilous statments I've ever heard.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well it would be wouldn't it dear.

 

[crisiñaki]

I don't think those of us non British would ever understand or condone the Queen's attitude, but if her people agree with that, it's up to them to mantain that inferiority complex not our problem and think: I live in England, I really like the country but I've never follow the British royalty, to me they are a bunch of hypocrits because they think they are better than anyone else and their lives are worse than the tackiest soap opera filled with infidelities and divorces, then why are they the example for their people.
I have respect for QEII because:
1. She's an old lady and I was taught to respect my seniors
2. She's the only one in that family that can walk straight ahead without any skeletons coming out the closet
But I don't respect the somewhat obnoxious attitude she gets with other royals, commoners I would understand, but fellow monarchs? Don't think so.

I've been respectful with everyone here and I expect the same kind of respect back, don't insult me for my point of view, if you like the Windsors, I can respect your opinion but I honestly don't share it.

Thanks in advance

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Rather unconvincing points, actually. Everything is political. All the European Monarchs have had 'argument' with their respective governments. They only have to avoid party politics.

​

Not everything is political. A monarch should remain publicly above such matters, hence why she reigns and not rules........

 

[BeatrixFan]

I forgive you.

 

[Skydragon]

Back to Duke Franz of Bavaria I see. When will he be making his move to claim the British Crown, I wonder? And a TV programme?

I'd say the best argument for the legitimacy of Elizabeth II is that her antecedents were given the Crown by an Act of Parliament, expressing the Will of the People. Can't get much more legitimate than that. Unlesss you are saying a Wittelsbach Prince and a TV show have a greater legitimacy than the Parliament?

I'm sure I read in the history books that Charles Stuart was gay and died without children, in a drunken stupor in France.

Elisabeth draws the crowds in Scotland and it is only a handful of wannabe's that whisper behind her back, state normal then. Even Alex Salmond bowed to the Queen! We must not forget Sean Connery, the other staunch supporter of the 'free scotland' campaign, who lives abroad and almost fell over his own feet to accept a knighthood from a Queen he apparently despises.

 

[Iluvbertie]

That is just not so. Apart from the fact that the Stuarts have a stronger claim to the Scottish and British thrones, there is a gentleman in Australia who has a stronger claim to the English throne than the Windsors. There was a programme about him on British t.v. last year.

I too have seen this show.

However it ignores three essential things.

1. Under English common law once a father has accepted a child as his, whether or not he is the biological father is irrelevant - the child is his.


2. Henry VII claimed the throne through 'right of conquest' thus wiping out all Plantagenets claims.


3. Parliament has an Act on its books saying that the only legitimate claimants are the descendents of the Electress Sophia of Hannover - of whom the senior claimant is Elizabeth II.

 

[Skydragon]

This is from the programme in question, which had the guy from Blackadder presenting it!.

The documentary's historian Michael Jones found documents in Rouen Cathedral he believes show that Edward IV, who ruled from 1461 to 1483, was illegitimate because when he was conceived his parents were 200 kilometres (124 miles) apart.

Well we will never know will we, after all they could both have had fast horses!

 

[hofburg]

I don't think those of us non British would ever understand or condone the Queen's attitude, but if her people agree with that, it's up to them to mantain that inferiority complex not our problem and think: I live in England, I really like the country but I've never follow the British royalty, to me they are a bunch of hypocrits because they think they are better than anyone else and their lives are worse than the tackiest soap opera filled with infidelities and divorces, then why are they the example for their people.
I have respect for QEII because:
1. She's an old lady and I was taught to respect my seniors
2. She's the only one in that family that can walk straight ahead without any skeletons coming out the closet
But I don't respect the somewhat obnoxious attitude she gets with other royals, commoners I would understand, but fellow monarchs? Don't think so.

I've been respectful with everyone here and I expect the same kind of respect back, don't insult me for my point of view, if you like the Windsors, I can respect your opinion but I honestly don't share it.

Thanks in advance

Very well put.

 

[branchg]

That is just not so. Apart from the fact that the Stuarts have a stronger claim to the Scottish and British thrones, there is a gentleman in Australia who has a stronger claim to the English throne than the Windsors. There was a programme about him on British t.v. last year.

Parliament is ultimately Sovereign in the UK and the Act of Settlement awarded the Crown to the descendants of Electress Sophia. Parliament could change the succession at any time and award the Crown to whomever they wished.

 

[ysbel]

Although succession to the throne has traditionally been hereditary, more often than not the political forces in a country at the time of a king's death have played a large role.

I'm reading the book, A Distant Mirror, a history about Europe in the 14th century and one of the chapters covers the succession to the French throne when all the sons of Philip the Fair died out. The one with the best claim on the French throne was Edward III of England, Philip's grandson through his mother Isabel of France who was Philip's daughter.

Edward's claim got violent opposition in France and the author stated that the French didn't want Edward because his mother had killed her husband but more importantly, the French did not want a King of England as King of France.

So they passed the Salic law which forbid inheriting the throne through the maternal line even though there had been no law like that before. Quite a few former kings had inherited the throne through their mothers but the law had the desired effect for the French because it barred an English king from the throne.

Edward III, of course, challenged this and it was the premise for the start of the Hundred Years War but in the end the Kings of England were barred from taking the French throne even though they had a better claim.

 

[Skydragon]

I don't think those of us non British would ever understand

Exactly.

"it's up to them to mantain that inferiority complex not our problem". "I've been respectful with everyone here".

I'm afraid your inferiority opinion belies your respectful comment. It's an old ploy to suggest someone else has an inferiority complex to mask your own.

 

[crisiñaki]

Exactly.


I'm afraid your inferiority opinion belies your respectful comment. It's an old ploy to suggest someone else has an inferiority complex to mask your own.

You misunderstood my post, skydragon; I wasn't talking about the Brit inferiority complex or even the TRF member's inferiority complex but the Windsor's inferiority complex; that's why I thought I wasn't disrespecting anyone.

I told you, I live in England, I like the country, the people but not their royals.

Sorry if you feel offended in anyway, that wasn't my purpose and I think we better get back on topic here

 

[ysbel]

Let's quit talking about each other's inferiority complex, shall we, and get back to topic.

 

[crisiñaki]

To me it seems like the Windsor who's closest to the other Royals is Edward and by extension Sophie, it may have to be because they are close in age with many of the other princes and princesses in Europe, if you notice, they go to almost every act (weddings specially) hosted in other countries.

You'd never see the princess royal or the Duke of York in those things

 

[Skydragon]

To me it seems like the Windsor who's closest to the other Royals is Edward and by extension Sophie, it may have to be because they are close in age with many of the other princes and princesses in Europe, if you notice, they go to almost every act (weddings specially) hosted in other countries.

You'd never see the princess royal or the Duke of York in those things

As you say, it's because they are that much younger. You tend to be comfortable with a similar age group.

 

[Skydragon]

Let's quit talking about each other's inferiority complex, shall we, and get back to topic.

Sorry Ysbel

 

[Warren]

...but in the end the Kings of England were barred from taking the French throne even though they had a better claim.

So surely the Stuart legitimists should be claiming the Crown of France as well?

 

[crisiñaki]

So surely the Stuart legitimists should be claiming the Crown of France as well?

Why not? Everybody claims it: Orleans, Borbon, etc,etc,etc

 

[Skydragon]

So surely the Stuart legitimists should be claiming the Crown of France as well?

Why not, they claim everything else!

 

[Idriel]

So surely the Stuart legitimists should be claiming the Crown of France as well?

I wouldn't recommend it. It is a volatile position with a high rate of casualties...

 

[Elspeth]

Well, maybe after England and Scotland have separated again, they can train their sights on the Scottish throne and give up their claim to the English one.

 

[hofburg]

Well, maybe after England and Scotland have separated again, they can train their sights on the Scottish throne and give up their claim to the English one.

I still remember the reports, a few years ago, that Princess Anne would become 'Anne, Queen of Scots'. I guess that initiative went down the drain
.

 

[ysbel]

Well the British royal coat of arms had the fleur-de-lis quartered for quite a long time.

Some of my ancestors fought with Bonnie Prince Charlie but that time period is not as interesting to me as when Henry VII got rid of almost all the Plantagenets and their supporter to eliminate any threats to the throne.

His ancestry was a hodgepodge of speculation and guesswork and there were so many Plantagenets who had a better claim than he did but he systematically wiped them out once he came to the throne. I think one of the few left when he died was Margaret Pole and Henry VIII had her beheaded during the break with Rome.

Ah the politics of power.

 

[Skydragon]

Well, maybe after England and Scotland have separated again, they can train their sights on the Scottish throne and give up their claim to the English one.

Oh please, don't put ideas into their heads! They can't even run their own parliament, let alone the whole of Scotland. They even believe that if they separate from England, they get to keep any Army, Airforce or Navy stationed here!