The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 1: Ending 2022

[Osipi]

I've come to think that possibly Kate will never where the Queen's RFO and maybe will be given other honors instead. I think her first family order will be her father in laws- but that's just my conjecture.

Along with your line of thinking, because its late in HM's reign, its possible that they don't find it prudent to make all new RFOs out of something besides ivory. I think HM did the next best thing to show how much she appreciates her granddaughter-in-law by purposely lending her the wedding bracelet that's never been loaned out before to anyone.

 

[HRHHermione]

Along with your line of thinking, because its late in HM's reign, its possible that they don't find it prudent to make all new RFOs out of something besides ivory. I think HM did the next best thing to show how much she appreciates her granddaughter-in-law by purposely lending her the wedding bracelet that's never been loaned out before to anyone.

That's how I interpreted the bracelet gesture as well- as a mark of goodwill and affection so no one read into Kate not wearing an order.


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[MARG]

The orders of the ladies that have passed are all ivory. So if the ivory is the issue, wearing Diana's, Queen Mum's etc order doesn't solve the problem.

Ivory is still legitimately available although at horrendous cost. The amount of ivory it takes to make an RFO is very small so I do not see the issue with ivory on that level. Tusked animals die just as every other living thing.

I think the problem is that many people see Catherine not having an RFO as a personal slight to her when it is not. It is in the Queen's gift and hers to bestow as she wills it. The BRF all know what the deal is. We do not, so it seems people are jumping to unwarranted conclusions here.

As to the notion that she has one and doesn't want to wear it for whatever reason, that would be rudeness personified because the only time she would need to wear it would be in HM presence.

 

[Dman]

Then they'd have to announce the change and take an official position on whether the other historical royal ivory pieces should be destroyed- which they never have done.

I've come to think that possibly Kate will never wear the Queen's RFO and maybe will be given other honors instead. I think her first family order will be her father in laws- but that's just my conjecture.


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Actually, Catherine's first family order will be The Queen's, because her service started under Elizabeth II.


Folks, jewels are great, but the royal family order is a mark of respect, appreciation and affection from The Queen to her family. With five years of service to the Monarch, Catherine should have been given the order by now.

I know some are tired of me talking about it, but I just find it odd that Catherine has not been seen wearing it after all this time. If there aren't any orders left to give, one should be made. Or she could wear The Duchess of Kent's order. She no longer attend events where it would be worn.

 

[HRHHermione]

Ivory is still legitimately available although at horrendous cost. The amount of ivory it takes to make an RFO is very small so I do not see the issue with ivory on that level. Tusked animals die just as every other living thing.

The issue, as explained above, is that Prince William is known to be opposed to ivory, including antique ivory. If his wife wears anything made of ivory in public, it undermines one of his major conservation initiatives. It's not about availability- that's clearly not an issue.

Here are more links backing that up:

Prince William 'calls for Buckingham Palace ivory to be destroyed' | UK news | The Guardian

Prince William close to breakthrough in battle against illegal ivory trade - Telegraph

Royal ivory: Why Prince William is right | Environment | The Guardian

And here is why it would have been especially tone deaf for Catherine to wear an order made of ivory during the Chinese state visit. Can you imagine the headlines? "Kate Middleton Wears Ivory Portrait of the Queen as Hypocrite Wills Calls for Ivory Ban"


Prince William records ivory trade speech as China's President Xi arrives - BBC News

Prince William urges end to illegal ivory trade in China speech - BBC News

 

[HRHHermione]

Actually, Catherine's first family order will be The Queen's, because her service started under Elizabeth II.


Folks, jewels are great, but the royal family order is a mark of respect, appreciation and affection from The Queen to her family. With five years of service to the Monarch, Catherine should have been given the order by now.

I know some are tired of me talking about it, but I just find it odd that Catherine has not been seen wearing it after all this time. If there aren't any orders left to give, one should be made. Or she could wear The Duchess of Kent's order. She no longer attend events where it would be worn.

Look, I get your perspective here. I love the tradition of the Royal Family Order and would love to see it on Catherine. I agree with you that logically- after five years, and with two children- that it would make sense for her to have received it by now.

That's actually why I got interested in examining some of the reasons that she may not wear it. The Queen has loaned her important, personal jewelry which is a pretty clear sign of regard for her and for her position in the family. I doubt that Catherine hasn't received it because of a slight, or because the Queen doesn't think she's done enough.

My personal opinion, which I think I make a pretty decent case for, is that they're worried about the PR mess that could emerge around the highly sensitive issue of materials. If Kate never wears it? Only very dedicated royal watchers will ever notice. If she does wear it, and the inevitable headlines arise about the history and materials involved? It forces some difficult conversations and decisions around very important historical artworks and artifacts. The press doesn't obsessively analyze everything the older royal women wear- no one is going to report on the material on Camilla's order, or Anne's. But they absolutely would with Catherine.

We will never know for sure what conversations have taken place around this, but when I said that I think she may never wear it- I think there's at least a possibility that the family has discussed it and decided that the best way to handle it might be for Kate to not wear one during the Queen's reign.

 

[Osipi]

This is a bit off topic but along the ivory lines, it was just recently too that in a stance to fight illegal poaching, Kenya recently huge piles of ivory tusks that were valued into the millions on the market. This is part and parcel of what William's United for Wildlife is championing and adds to the reason of just why Kate wouldn't be wearing a RFO made out of ivory. Perhaps she does have it. She knows she's got it, the Queen knows she's given it to her and understands the need for diplomacy needed as far as wearing it in public.

KENYA, IN GESTURE, BURNS IVORY TUSKS - NYTimes.com

 

[Dman]

I totally understand the ivory issue. As I said before, if the order being made with ivory is the problem, why not commission her a new order without the ivory setting? The whole thing could be solved with a new order for Catherine. Princess Sofia have a brand new version of her father-in-law's family order and everyone else wear the older version.

I just think that it's important for Catherine to be seen wearing her family order. New or old. Or at least appoint her to a knighthood. Don't allow her five years of service go underappreciated in the eyes of the public and even media. I would say the same for Camilla and Sophie, if they fell under this case.

 

[Curryong]

Wouldn't the Queen giving Kate the Family Order have appeared in the Court Circular? She would, after all, have hardly sent it to Kate through the post. If she married in the Queen's reign, had children in the Queen's reign and began her public duties in this reign then you would think that she would have received the Family Order from this Queen, not wait till Charles comes to the throne. Sophie had to wait for ages for her FO, and I think it's the same case here.

 

[HRHHermione]

Wouldn't the Queen giving Kate the Family Order have appeared in the Court Circular? She would, after all, have hardly sent it to Kate through the post. If she married in the Queen's reign, had children in the Queen's reign and began her public duties in this reign then you would think that she would have received the Family Order from this Queen, not wait till Charles comes to the throne. Sophie had to wait for ages for her FO, and I think it's the same case here.

No, it does not appear in the court circular. And Sophie got hers in 2004- 5 years after she married, in 1999.




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[Duc_et_Pair]

I agree. The idea of pinning a sash onto a months old baby is plainly absurd.

Equally, I'm not exactly sure what service Mary Donaldson had performed for Denmark when she got her order before her wedding, let alone that of her father who also got an order.

Sometimes the Order simply comes with the position. In Sweden we see royal babies with the Seraphim but this is no different from -for an example- the Golden Lion of the House Nassau, an Order with both Henri of Nassau (Luxembourg) and Willem-Alexander of Orange-Nassau (the Netherlands) as joint grandmasters. The statutes of this Order simply state that a Prince of the blood royal from the House (Orange-)Nassau has the Order. Period. Only difference: they wear the decorations from the age of 18 and not -like in Sweden- already as baby, but the systematic is the same and it is not so strange: an Order of chivalry without the Princes of the blood royal? So there are Orders because of merits, but there are also Orders because you simply are what you are. Prince William got the Most Noble Order of the Garter because of his position and not because he has a dazzling list of merits.

 

[HRHHermione]

I totally understand the ivory issue. As I said before, if the order being made with ivory is the problem, why not commission her a new order without the ivory setting? The whole thing could be solved with a new order for Catherine. Princess Sofia have a brand new version of her father-in-law's family order and everyone else wear the older version.

I just think that it's important for Catherine to be seen wearing her family order. New or old. Or at least appoint her to a knighthood. Don't allow her five years of service go underappreciated in the eyes of the public and even media. I would say the same for Camilla and Sophie, if they fell under this case.

I really do think that from a PR perspective, it doesn't much matter if Catherine wears an order or not. Like I said- only dedicated royal watchers even notice. I guarantee no one else can even tell you what a royal family order is.

Her wearing one (even one in a new material- which as I said, is something that would have to be disclosed to the press, which would create a story about the ivory all the other ladies are wearing) would ignite the debate about what to do with all of the historical ivory works owned by the Royal family which is a much bigger deal as a story than what honors Kate receives.

If I were on their PR team, I would be telling them to avoid that conversation at all costs.


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[Osipi]

This brings up a good question. Has there ever been anything in the press where they've noticed that Kate didn't wear the RFO at all? Just curious.

 

[Countessmeout]

If Kate gets it that year, it wouldn't be out of place. Sophie didn't get one until 2004 (5 years). Fergie was married for 6 years before they separated and never received it. Diana and Camilla both received shortly after marriage but they are also wives of the heir to the throne.

 

[Skippyboo]

There has only been 3 occasions where a RFO would have been worn that Kate has attended. The 2 Diplomatic Receptions have no press coverage. She got plenty of press coverage for the Chinese State Dinner. If the Cambridges continue to go to state dinners, I think eventually it will be written about her lack of RFO. I think it definitely written about the first time she wears it.


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[Jacknch]

This brings up a good question. Has there ever been anything in the press where they've noticed that Kate didn't wear the RFO at all? Just curious.

Not that I am aware of - there is no call for her to receive the RFO met likely because, as HRHHermione suggests, only dedicated royal watchers will notice it and even then it is not a hugely vital issue.

I am quite sure we had this conversation last year after the state visit from China with talk of reasons why and the issue of ivory came up as one of the reasons. I think we can be sure that isn't the problem - either because the problem doesn't exist or because it can easily be remedied by the use of porcelain or another material.

Countessmeout gives the most probable reason why the Order hasn't been yet been given to Catherine.

ETA: Skippyboo is right - when Catherine does receive the Order, it will then be noticed and commented upon in the press.

 

[Stefan]

Sometimes the Order simply comes with the position. In Sweden we see royal babies with the Seraphim but this is no different from -for an example- the Golden Lion of the House Nassau, an Order with both Henri of Nassau (Luxembourg) and Willem-Alexander of Orange-Nassau (the Netherlands) as joint grandmasters. The statutes of this Order simply state that a Prince of the blood royal from the House (Orange-)Nassau has the Order. Period. Only difference: they wear the decorations from the age of 18 and not -like in Sweden- already as baby, but the systematic is the same and it is not so strange: an Order of chivalry without the Princes of the blood royal? So there are Orders because of merits, but there are also Orders because you simply are what you are. Prince William got the Most Noble Order of the Garter because of his position and not because he has a dazzling list of merits.

If the Princes of the House of Nassau have the of the Golden Lion of nasau why does the sons of Prince Margreit not have it?

 

[wartenberg7]

The orders of the ladies that have passed are all ivory. So if the ivory is the issue, wearing Diana's, Queen Mum's etc order doesn't solve the problem.


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Yes it does! Wearing an used one means no "new" ivory had to be used. It is there anyway and putting them in store wouldn´t help, makes no sense.

The King of the Netherlands still uses the hermine coat at his investiture although nobody would kill a mink these days to create a royal mantle.

 

[wartenberg7]

Maybe she has already been awarded the RFO but chooses not to wear it as it is made from ivory?? Who knows

Are you serious?!

 

[tommy100]

Are you serious?!

About as serious as half the other suggestions on here. In fairness the Queen may have given it to Catherine we don't know and won't know until she wears it in public.

Let's get real guys, Sophie waited 5 years for hers even though she was for those 5 years often referred to as the Queen's favourite.
People refer back to Diana getting her RFO within a year but the RF has changed massively since the 80s and 90s. Camilla waited, Sophie waited so there is no reason why Catherine not having hers now is a 'snub'. People hold Catherine higher than Camilla and Sophie but actually when they received their they had done more 'royal' work than Catherine. That is NOT a moan at Catherine, they were in a different position as they were a generation ahead and married to full time royals.

Anyway the bickering over it is really not worth it, only the Queen can decide when to give Catherine the RFO and we will only know when Catherine decided to wear it.

 

[wartenberg7]

If Kate gets it that year, it wouldn't be out of place. Sophie didn't get one until 2004 (5 years). Fergie was married for 6 years before they separated and never received it. Diana and Camilla both received shortly after marriage but they are also wives of the heir to the throne.

Out of place?!
That shows that there´s no system in giving it out at all. And we can endlessly discuss ivory, no ivory, merits, no merits etc etc. ...

 

[Dman]

Members of the British press and Royal correspondents have been waiting for Catherine to receive her RFO for a while now. It's one of the reasons it was written about last year. Some expected for her to have it, but then she showed up to the Chinese State Banquet or the Diplomatic Corps reception without it. The palace really don't comment on it, so there's not much to write about it. If she's seen with it on, the media will take notice, because it will be seen as The Queen marking Catherine's place in the family and showing her appreciation for her granddaughter-in-law.

Sometimes I get the feeling that The Queen herself really don't think about this kind of stuff until someone brings it up to her.

About as serious as half the other suggestions on here. In fairness the Queen may have given it to Catherine we don't know and won't know until she wears it in public.

Let's get real guys, Sophie waited 5 years for hers even though she was for those 5 years often referred to as the Queen's favourite.
People refer back to Diana getting her RFO within a year but the RF has changed massively since the 80s and 90s. Camilla waited, Sophie waited so there is no reason why Catherine not having hers now is a 'snub'. People hold Catherine higher than Camilla and Sophie but actually when they received their they had done more 'royal' work than Catherine. That is NOT a moan at Catherine, they were in a different position as they were a generation ahead and married to full time royals.

Anyway the bickering over it is really not worth it, only the Queen can decide when to give Catherine the RFO and we will only know when Catherine decided to wear it.

No one hold Catherine higher than anyone. Catherine is pretty much third lady of the land after The Queen and Camilla. Camilla got hers after two years of marriage. It's been five years for Catherine now. It's perfectly natural to expect her to have her family order by now.

Catherine should have it by this years State Visit and the next Diplomatic Cops Reception in Dec. If not, it will be beyond odd.

 

[Osipi]

To throw another wrench into the fan, its very possible that HM gave Kate the RFO a long time ago and perhaps even on her wedding day. With the few occasions where she would have worn it and with other issues that surround the RFO such as the material, we're just assuming she hasn't got one yet. She could be wearing it on her PJs and riding George's hot wheels around Anmer Hall singing "I got the RFO! I got the RFO!".

(ducks and runs for cover)

 

[tommy100]

To throw another wrench into the fan, its very possible that HM gave Kate the RFO a long time ago and perhaps even on her wedding day. With the few occasions where she would have worn it and with other issues that surround the RFO such as the material, we're just assuming she hasn't got one yet. She could be wearing it on her PJs and riding George's hot wheels around Anmer Hall singing "I got the RFO! I got the RFO!".

(ducks and runs for cover)

I suggested that a few posts back, that the queen had already given it to Kate who simply hasnt been seen wearing it. Good luck with the responses you get to that... Mine were hilarious

 

[Queen Claude]

This brings up a good question. Has there ever been anything in the press where they've noticed that Kate didn't wear the RFO at all? Just curious.

I don't recall that kind of story but there was a Daily Mail story late last summer/early fall stating that she was going to get the order and to expect to see her wearing it at upcoming event(s).

ETA:
Here's the DM story.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3215522/How-Kate-Middleton-banished-William-s-ghosts.html

 

[Skippyboo]

Yes it does! Wearing an used one means no "new" ivory had to be used. It is there anyway and putting them in store wouldn´t help, makes no sense.

The King of the Netherlands still uses the hermine coat at his investiture although nobody would kill a mink these days to create a royal mantle.

That would work for another Royal lady but that doesn't work for the wife of the man leading a public campaign against poaching and one of the key components is getting people not to use/buy products made of ivory for decoration or medicinal purposes. Especially when that woman's fashion choices cause the items to sell out.




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[Duc_et_Pair]

If the Princes of the House of Nassau have the of the Golden Lion of nasau why does the sons of Prince Margreit not have it?

An OTT step but it shows someone can have an Order purely without any merit at all, simply because one is what one is, like the royal babies in Sweden. Article III of the Satutes read:

Les Princes, fils et frères des Chefs des deux lignes de la Maison de Nassau, sont Chevaliers-nés de l'Ordre. Toutefois ils n'en porteront les insignes, avant l'âge de la majorité, que du consentement du Chef de leur ligne.

(The Princes, sons and brothers of the Chefs of the two lines of the House of Nassau, are born Knights in this Order. However they do not bear the insignias of this Order before the age of majority, unless it is consented by the Chef of their line.).

 

[hernameispekka]

That would work for another Royal lady but that doesn't work for the wife of the man leading a public campaign against poaching and one of the key components is getting people not to use/buy products made of ivory for decoration or medicinal purposes. Especially when that woman's fashion choices cause the items to sell out.




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Exactly! This is the reason I think they are avoiding it all together. Because if Kate wears an old ivory one, they will run with the "Kate wears ivory" headline, if sshe wears a new porclein one that will have to be clearly commented on by the palace which would lead to talks about all the other ladies wearing ivory. It's a very tricky situation PR wise. I don't know if she will get it or not, but I do not think the ivory issue is taken lightly.

 

[mademoisellekate]

No one hold Catherine higher than anyone. Catherine is pretty much third lady of the land after The Queen and Camilla. Camilla got hers after two years of marriage. It's been five years for Catherine now. It's perfectly natural to expect her to have her family order by now.

Catherine should have it by this years State Visit and the next Diplomatic Cops Reception in Dec. If not, it will be beyond odd.

I just dont see why she should receive RFO when she is not even full time working royal? If she is not fully committed to royal duties, why should she be awarded - just because she gave birth to the heir and spare?

In my opinion both Sofie and Camilla had to "earn it" - both did much more royal duties in their first years of marriage than Catherine - so Catherine should too.

I think Catherine will have her RFO when is will be full time working royal (most likely) or when she starts doing more engagements.

 

[wartenberg7]

I would simply negate any of these reports! The influence of the media goes much too far. It´s ok if the crown jeweller is asked to use an alternative material for it. But to make royal ladies stopping wearing an order the Queen gave to them only because of public (media !) opinion would be an absurd and outrageous thing to do at the same time!
If there WERE any critical reports, so what!? This would last for 1 or 2 days and another subject comes along which is more relevant and more interesting.
Do we tear down old buildings, cathedrals still in use today because workers and builders were exploited and had hardly any rights or the Pyramids because they were built under circumstances we would never approve today by slaves? Do we give back works of art from our museums we dragged out of exotic places during colonioal times? I could extent this list endlessly.
This is such a hypocritical, non-important matter if royal orders are made of ivory or not! I´m totally against using new items made of ivory. But not using existing ones anymore is nonsense. The royal family is well advised not to obey to public popular opinion when it comes to every little detail, and that´s what it is.