The British Nobility thread 1: Ending 2022

[eya]

Lady Alexandra Hooper [nee Knatchbull], daughter of the 3rd Earl Mountbatten of Burma, and wife of Thomas Hooper, has given birth to a second son



https://peeragenews.blogspot.com/2020/05/alden-peter-theodore-mountbatten-hooper.html

 

[duchessrachel]

I began watching "An American Aristocrat's Guide to Great Estates" this past weekend. The first show featured the Duke and Duchess of Argyll. I was reading about them and one of the things I read said that the Duchess is the Patroness of the Royal Caledonian Ball. This got me to wondering: Do the aristocracy still give fancy balls that some of the royal family attend wearing ball gowns and tiaras? I have read so many books on the British royal family and was wondering if there are balls given today like they were in the days of Queen Victoria and Queen Mary, and if so, are they on the scale where tiaras and ballgowns are worn? Is there still a "London Season"?

 

[Alison H]

There isn't a Season as such, although you generally see a lot of posh people at Royal Ascot, Wimbledon, the Henley Regatta, etc. Funny how they don't seem to have any trouble getting tickets!


Queen Charlotte's Ball was revived a few years ago, but mainly as a charity fundraising event, and the Royals don't attend. The Royal Caledonian Ball's also mainly a charity thing: it's held in London but raises money for Scottish charities. It's been going since the 1840s, but fell foul of coronavirus this year :-( .

 

[Lumutqueen]

I guess “the season” disappeared with the removal of the debutantes being presented to court in 1958.

Those who strive for the old ways run The London Season events but they’re attended by a lot of Russians, Chinese and Middle Eastern ladies whose parents dream of Downton Abbey.

http://thelondonseason.org/the-london-season/

 

[duchessrachel]

There isn't a Season as such, although you generally see a lot of posh people at Royal Ascot, Wimbledon, the Henley Regatta, etc. Funny how they don't seem to have any trouble getting tickets!


Queen Charlotte's Ball was revived a few years ago, but mainly as a charity fundraising event, and the Royals don't attend. The Royal Caledonian Ball's also mainly a charity thing: it's held in London but raises money for Scottish charities. It's been going since the 1840s, but fell foul of coronavirus this year :-( .

Thank you.

I guess “the season” disappeared with the removal of the debutantes being presented to court in 1958.

Those who strive for the old ways run The London Season events but they’re attended by a lot of Russians, Chinese and Middle Eastern ladies whose parents dream of Downton Abbey.

About the London Season The London Season

Thank you. I have been planning to read the book "The Last Season" and was wondering if it is pretty descriptive of how "The London Season" used to be. I think there are two books by that name.

 

[Durham]

I guess “the season” disappeared with the removal of the debutantes being presented to court in 1958.

About the London Season The London Season

To quote Princess Margaret:

"we had to put a stop to it, every tart in London was getting in".

 

[Mirabel]

To quote Princess Margaret:

"we had to put a stop to it, every tart in London was getting in".

I read that the problem was that originally young girls were presented by a lady of rank who was a family member, or at least a close connection.

But then, these presenters began accepting money to present girls with whom they had absolutely no connection; it became crass and commercialized so the Queen did away with it in favor of garden parties.

 

[Biri]

Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Earl of Arundel and Surrey (b.3 September 1987) [oldest of five children and heir of Edward William Fitzalan-Howard, 18th Duke of Norfork (b.1956) & his wife Georgina Susan, nee Gore, scion of the Earls Temple of Stowe (b.1962)] & his wife Cecilia, nee Colacicchi (b.18 April 1988) [oldest daughter of William of the Counts Colacicchi, Nobile of Agnani (b.1954) & his wife Clare, nee Clutterbuck (b.1958)] had their second daughter, Eliza Rachel, on 12 May.

A sister for Flora Mary Isabella (10-11-2018).

Sources: https://peeragenews.blogspot.com/202...untess-of.html
Norfolk

 

[Denville]

I read that the problem was that originally young girls were presented by a lady of rank who was a family member, or at least a close connection.

But then, these presenters began accepting money to present girls with whom they had absolutely no connection; it became crass and commercialized so the Queen did away with it in favor of garden parties.

I think its a bit of an odd remark for Margaret to make. Why was she stigmatizing these girls as "tarts"?

 

[Mirabel]

I think its a bit of an odd remark for Margaret to make. Why was she stigmatizing these girls as "tarts"?

Perhaps because they were no longer from within her usual social circle?
Margaret could be snobbish.

 

[Denville]

Perhaps because they were no longer from within her usual social circle?
Margaret could be snobbish.

Yes I think we all know Margaret was snobbish.. but it was a damn stupid remark to make. Im sure most of the girls who were being presented were not in any sense of the word "tarts" and it sounds appalling..

 

[Somebody]

Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Earl of Arundel and Surrey (b.3 September 1987) [oldest of five children and heir of Edward William Fitzalan-Howard, 18th Duke of Norfork (b.1956) & his wife Georgina Susan, nee Gore, scion of the Earls Temple of Stowe (b.1962)] & his wife Cecilia, nee Colacicchi (b.18 April 1988) [oldest daughter of William of the Counts Colacicchi, Nobile of Agnani (b.1954) & his wife Clare, nee Clutterbuck (b.1958)] had their second daughter, Eliza Rachel, on 12 May.

A sister for Flora Mary Isabella (10-11-2018).

Sources: https://peeragenews.blogspot.com/202...untess-of.html
Norfolk

That's wonderful news; although in a family like theirs, they might have (silently) hoped for a boy so they would have a heir to the heir. Eder sister Lady Flora, however, will become a peer as Baroness Beaumont if no brother is born (this title entered the family through the current duke's grandmother as it can be inherited by women; so Flora is currently the 'heir presumptive of the heir apparent' to this peerage while her uncle is the 'heir presumptive of the heir apparent' for all other titles).

Current line of succession to the Dukedom of Norfolk (the highest hereditary position in the UK outside the Royal Family):
1. Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Earl of Arundel (3 December 1987) - eldest son of the duke
2. Lord Thomas Fitzalan-Howard (14 March 1992) - second son of the duke
3. Lord Philip Fitzalan-Howard (14 July 1996) - third son of the duke
4. Lord Gerald Bernard Fitzalan-Howard (born 13 June 1962) - brother of the duke
5. Arthur Fitzalan-Howard - nephew of the duke
Next: Male-line descendants of Lord Michael Fitzalan-Howard (1917-2007) - uncle of the current duke; who had 4 sons
Next: Male-line descendants of Lord Martin Fitzalan-Howard (1922–2003) - uncle of the current duke (if any)
Next: Lord Mark Fitzalan-Howard (born 1934) - uncle of the current duke (youngest brother of his father; no male-line descendants)

Current line of succession to the Barony of Beaumont (some might have off-spring that is not included):
1. Henry Miles Fitzalan-Howard, Earl of Arundel (3 December 1987) - eldest son of the duke
2. Lady Flora Fitzalan-Howard (b. 2018) - eldest daughter of (1)/granddaughter of duke
3. Lady Eliza Fitzalan-Howard (b. 2020) - youngest daughter of (1)/granddaughter of duke
4. Lord Thomas Fitzalan-Howard (14 March 1992) - middle son of the duke
5. Lord Philip Fitzalan-Howard (14 July 1996) - youngest son of the duke
6. Lady Rachel Fitzalan-Howard (10 June 1989) - eldest daughter of the duke
7. Lady Isabel Fitzalan-Howard (7 February 1994) - youngest daughter of the duke
8. Lord Gerald Bernard Fitzalan-Howard (born 13 June 1962) - brother of the duke
9. Arthur Fitzalan-Howard - nephew of the duke
10. Florence Fitzalan-Howard - niece of the duke
11. Grace Fitzalan-Howard - niece of the duke
12. Tessa Mary Isabel Balfour, Countess of Balfour (b. 1950) - eldest sister of duke
13. Lady Willa Anne Balfour (born 1973) - eldest daughter of (12)/niece of duke
14. Arthur Anthony Franks (born 1999) - great-nephew of duke
15. Violet Miriam Franks (born 2000) - great-niece of duke
16. Esmé Alice Franks (born 2004) - great-niece of duke
17. Lady Kinvara Clare Rachel Balfour (born 1975), known as an English playwright - second daughter of (12)/niece of duke
18. Lady Maria Alice Jubilee Balfour (born 1977) - third daughter of (12)/niece of duke
19. Caius Christian Wigan (born 2013) - great-nephew of duke
20. Aliena Mirabelle Wigan (born 2009) - great-niece of duke
21. Lady Candida Rose Balfour (born 1984) - youngest daughter of (12)/niece of duke
22. Lady Carina Mary Gabrielle Fitzalan-Howard (born 20 February 1952) - second elder sister of duke
23. Wilfred Frost (b. 1985), known as financial news anchor for CNBC - nephew of duke/second son of (22)
24. George Frost - nephew of duke/third son of (22)
25. Lady Marcia Mary Josephine Fitzalan-Howard (born 10 March 1953), better known as actress Marsha Fitzalan - third elder sister of duke
26. Frederick William Hamlet Reycart (born 1987) - nephew of duke
27. Mariella Celia Reycart (born 1982) - niece of duke
28. Jemima Carrie Reycart (born 1984) - niece of duke

Next: descendants of the late duke's siblings.

 

[Heavs]

Yes I think we all know Margaret was snobbish.. but it was a damn stupid remark to make. Im sure most of the girls who were being presented were not in any sense of the word "tarts" and it sounds appalling..

Well it's certainly not the first or last time a woman or group of women had that type of derogatory remark (or much worse) thrown at them, even if it's entirely inaccurate and just meant to be nasty or "funny".

I would imagine she was annoyed at the buying of presentations and how many nouveau riche and otherwise non aristocratic or unsuitable girls got through.

The "season" still goes on after a fashion and it's claimed to be for charity etc. When I was at school I was invited to join (all upper 6th were via an old girl or something) you had to agree to host your own ball and a list of other requirements. I was tempted to ask my parents (I think they'd have said a big no) because it sounded glamourous but also incredibly silly and a lot of effort to go do when doing A levels and everything else.

 

[Denville]

Well it's certainly not the first or last time a woman or group of women had that type of derogatory remark (or much worse) thrown at them, even if it's entirely inaccurate and just meant to be nasty or "funny".

I would imagine she was annoyed at the buying of presentations and how many nouveau riche and otherwise non aristocratic or unsuitable girls got through.

.

I can't think of anything much worse, than calling young women "tarts". If she'd said even "every jumped up nouveau riche in London" was getting in, it would still have been rude.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

And that's probably why Margaret referred to them as such - I think several people have said that she could have a rather difficult personality!

 

[Durham]

Well she could be very cutting I understand. Without knowing the tone & context I don't know why she used that particular word.

Presentations were becoming anachronistic & increasingly absurd in the context of the late 50's. Society was changing rapidly. Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain covers this period well.

 

[Heavs]

I can't think of anything much worse, than calling young women "tarts". If she'd said even "every jumped up nouveau riche in London" was getting in, it would still have been rude.

Well I was just thinking in more modern terms of people (including some women sometimes) slinging around the "bunch of sluts/whores/frigid bitches" if they don't like a particular group of women or the organisations they belong to. It doesn't have to make sense or be in the slightest bit factual. I got it directed it me for being in a certain choir at uni and my all girls school was known simultaneously as "The Whores on the Hill" and "Virgin Megastore" by local boys schools, neither extreme was true.

I've heard the quote before but not the context of the whole conversation but it's likely that she as being deliberately very rude, snobbish and dismissive.

 

[Durham]

I've never thought of the word tart as being as offensive as those terms. It can mean preening or acting provocatively.

As we agree without the full context it's difficult to know what she meant by it.

 

[MARG]

Well she could be very cutting I understand. Without knowing the tone & context I don't know why she used that particular word.

Presentations were becoming anachronistic & increasingly absurd in the context of the late 50's. Society was changing rapidly. Andrew Marr's History of Modern Britain covers this period well.

Well you only have to look at the Annual Vienna Opera Ball to see that money counts with its dozens of pallid debutantes wearing yhe obligatory identical Swarovski crystal tiaras, white gowns, at least 75% of which are strapless, ill-fitting and tasteless, accompanied by an equal number of young men in rented white tie. At least the music is the very best that money can buy.

 

[JR76]

That's wonderful news; although in a family like theirs, they might have (silently) hoped for a boy so they would have a heir to the heir.

I don't think it's a silent hope at all. Even if I'm sure they're beyond happy for every healthy daughter they have they need a son to keep the title and the vast Norfolk fortune in the family. Even if there is long line of succession to the dukedom it's preferable to keep it all as close to home as possible.

 

[Denville]

Well I was just thinking in more modern terms of people (including some women sometimes) slinging around the "bunch of sluts/whores/frigid bitches" if they don't like a particular group of women or the organisations they belong to. It doesn't have to make sense or be in the slightest bit factual. I got it directed it me for being in a certain choir at uni and my all girls school was known simultaneously as "The Whores on the Hill" and "Virgin Megastore" by local boys schools, neither extreme was true.

I've heard the quote before but not the context of the whole conversation but it's likely that she as being deliberately very rude, snobbish and dismissive.

I doubt if a woman of PM's generation would use such terms, as sluts.. But tarts is bad enough...
I don't believe anyone knows te full conversation but the remark itself showed Pm's nature...

 

[Durham]

Prince Phillip called the presentation of debutantes "bloody daft". His had become a widespread opinion by that time.

I don't think it's a silent hope at all. Even if I'm sure they're beyond happy for every healthy daughter they have they need a son to keep the title and the vast Norfolk fortune in the family. Even if there is long line of succession to the dukedom it's preferable to keep it all as close to home as possible.

It's interesting that you mention the Norfolk fortune because the Duke of Norfolk doesn't as far as I know appear in the Sunday Times annual rich list. There again you do have to have a fortune of £120 million to even enter at the very bottom of this very exclusive list so he might "only" be worth a £100 million or so.

The entail on the Norfolk estate was broken by the Arundel Estates Act of 1957. There is/was land by the Thames on the Strand where Arundel House once stood. That would be very valuable today.

The great wealth that the Dukes of Norfolk had in the C19th & early C20th was based in the main because of their holdings in Sheffield. That's what financed the great rebuilding of Arundel Castle.

Many aristocratic families profited very nicely off the labour of the working man & woman during the industrial era.

 

[Somebody]

I don't think it's a silent hope at all. Even if I'm sure they're beyond happy for every healthy daughter they have they need a son to keep the title and the vast Norfolk fortune in the family. Even if there is long line of succession to the dukedom it's preferable to keep it all as close to home as possible.

As the current duke has three sons, I'd say there is a pretty good chance that it will stay within his descendants - but for the current heir apparent (young father) it will make a difference if the title (including the role of Earl Marshall) ends up going to his child or his brother/(future) nephew.

 

[duchessrachel]

To quote Princess Margaret:

"we had to put a stop to it, every tart in London was getting in".

???

I read that the problem was that originally young girls were presented by a lady of rank who was a family member, or at least a close connection.

But then, these presenters began accepting money to present girls with whom they had absolutely no connection; it became crass and commercialized so the Queen did away with it in favor of garden parties.

It is bad that is got corrupted. I love the idea of it just as a tradition. But at least something else nice replaced it.

 

[Mirabel]

It is bad that is got corrupted. I love the idea of it just as a tradition. But at least something else nice replaced it.

Yes; remember that scene in Downton Abbey where the Countess of Grantham presents Lady Rose MacClare? It was lovely.

 

[duchessrachel]

Yes; remember that scene in Downton Abbey where the Countess of Grantham presents Lady Rose MacClare? It was lovely.

Yes, it was.

 

[Pairs of the Realm]

Some hereditary peers news - there will be 3 by-elections in the hereditary peers branch of House of Lords to be conducted by 8 September:

The Earl of Selbourne (John Palmer, 4th Earl of Selbourne) - elected as a Conservative peer but recently sat as non-affiliated as of 2019 (could it be because of the opposing views on Brexit? A lot of MPs and peers were so-called "sacked" during the prorogation issue months ago). He retired last March 26.

The Countess of Mar (Margaret of Mar, 31st Countess of Mar) - elected as a Crossbencher and one of the 15 elected by the whole House (and one of the few peeresses holding the peerage in her own right) - retired on May 1.

The Lord Rea (Nicolas Rea, 3rd Baron Rea) - one of the 2 Labour hereditary peers in the House, died on June 1. His son Matthew succeeded to the title.


Who do you think would be the prospective peers who will run? (List of peers eligible, as per the Register of Hereditary Peers)

Interestingly, the Earl of Snowdon (David Armstrong-Jones aka the Queen's nephew) is still in the list despite his controversial run in the by-election in 2018 (I don't know which is more in question - his degree of relationship with the Queen or that he did not submit any statement or CV for candidacy). Do you think that with his pending divorce, the more he'd need the cash? *ehem*

I can also sense the Viscount Stansgate (Stephen Benn, 3rd Viscount) may get elected - either by the whole House replacing the Countess of Mar or by the Labour peer replacing Lord Rea, though interestingly, the other peer present is Lord Granchester. (Viscounts Simon & Hanworth were elected by the whole House) The Viscount Stansgate is the eldest son of former Labour minister Tony Benn, who disclaimed his peerage to stay in the Lords, and the proponent of the Peerage Act 1963. And only that by his death in 2014 that his son reclaimed it for the purpose of getting elected in the Lords.

Or could the House elect The Lord Glenconner (Cody Tennant, 4th Baron), who'll possibly be the youngest peer (he's 25 years old)? He's the grandson of Colin Tennant, 3rd Baron and Lady Anne. His grandma was Princess Margaret's best friend and her lady-in-waiting. (And with a best-selling memoir) Cody ran several times in the Lords for the past years.

HOL By-elections Wiki article
Elected hereditary peers Wiki article

 

[iceflower]

Viscount and Viscountess Weymouth appeared at the This Morning TV show today, June 12, to promote the reopening of the Longleat Safari:



** rex gallery **

 

[An Ard Ri]

Alexander and his wife are the current Marquess & Marchioness of Bath since April when his father passed away

 

[An Ard Ri]

The late Lord Snowdon's sister in law,The Countess of Rosse talks about her life in Ireland at the family seat at Birr Castle.The current Earl also makes an appearance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...80-rooms-not-as-many-as-you-d-think-1.4315953