Succession and Membership Issues

[Avalon]

Spanish magainze Hola! also reports that the Government decided to drop the plans of the reform.

JAPÓN CIERRA EL CAMINO DE LA PRINCESA AIKO AL TRONO (brief translation of the most important parts of the article).

JAPAN CLOSES THE WAY TO THE THRONE FOR PRINCESS AIKO

The Government decided not to proceed with the reform of the Salic Law that would allow the only daughter of the Crown Prince Naruhito to be Empress one day.

Princess Aiko will never get to be Empress of Japan. The birth of her cousin Prince Hisahito, first male born to the Imperial Family in the last 40 years, ruined the plans to change the Succession Law to the Throne of the Chrysanthemum, according to which only males can succeed to the oldest Monarchy of the World.

Japanese Prime Minister apparently decided to leave the plans of Reform that had started in 2005. It seems almost paradoxical that Japan, one of the most advanced countries in the world, clings to a law that openly discriminates women. Within several decades all over the Europe women will be reigning, since at the moment there are several Heiresses to the Thrones: In Norway, Ingrid Alexandra, the daughter of Crown Prince Haakon and Crown Princess Mette-Marit, in the Netherlands, Catharina Amalia, first-born daughter of Crown Prince Wilhelm-Alexander and Crown Princess Maxima, in Belgium, Elizabeth, the daughter of Crown Prince Phillippe and Crown Princess Mathilde. The Reform is also predicted in Spain should the Princes of Asturias have a son one day (now they wait for another daughter), which will pave the way for Infanta Leonor to become Queen one day. And let’s not forget Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden, the only princess of her generation that will one day become Queen in her own right. The reform in Sweden, by the way, moved her brother Carl Philip of Sweden to the second place in the Line of the Succession.

 

[corazon]

and if tomorrow masako have a baby boy, wah happend with kiko's baby?

 

[Avalon]

and if tomorrow masako have a baby boy, wah happend with kiko's baby?

If Crown Prince Naruhito and Crown Princess Masako have a boy, the child will be next in the Succession Line, after his father.
In that case Prince Hisahito, the son of Prince Akishino and Princess Kiko will be 3rd in the Succession Line (after Naruhito and his son).

 

[Mandy]

If Crown Prince Naruhito and Crown Princess Masako have a boy, the child will be next in the Succession Line, after his father.
In that case Prince Hisahito, the son of Prince Akishino and Princess Kiko will be 3rd in the Succession Line (after Naruhito and his son).

Actually, if CP Naruhito and CP Masako had a baby boy, Hisahito would be 4th in the Succession Line after his own father Akishino. It would then be Naruhito, Baby Boy, Akishino, Hisahito.

 

[Avalon]

Actually, if CP Naruhito and CP Masako had a baby boy, Hisahito would be 4th in the Succession Line after his own father Akishino. It would then be Naruhito, Baby Boy, Akishino, Hisahito.

You are right, of course!
Sorry for the mistake, I've somehow completely forgotten about Prince Akishino!

 

[dragonsfire8]

I didn't mean the Japanese in general.

IMO, not all traditions are good, and this is one of them.

Personally, i think traditions are ment to be broken. This would the fate of the age old traditions the are still being kept. But of course not all traditions are meant to be broken, this happen to be one that needs to be broken. And it has to be soon!!!!!!

 

[Elspeth]

Well, public support for the change was higher before Hisahito's birth and dropped off afterward (I think it actually started to fall once Princess Kiko's pregnancy was announced). So if there's no huge public demand, I don't suppose the Japanese politicians are any more inclined to stick their necks out than politicians anywhere else.

 

[Amina]

Report: Japan to drop plan to allow female monarch
Japan will drop plans to allow women to inherit the country's imperial throne, following the birth last year of a long-awaited male heir, a news report said Wednesday.

The conservative Prime Minister Shinzo Abe plans to ditch recommendations by a government panel in 2005 that an emperor's first child _ boy or girl _ should accede the throne, according to a report by the daily Sankei Shimbun.
The reform was designed to defuse a looming succession crisis for the royal family, which had produced no male heir in four decades.
But the drive, championed by former Prime Minister Junichiro Koziumi, lost steam after the birth of Prince Hisahito on Sept. 6 to Kiko, the wife of the emperor's second son. Abe now plans to encourage debate on other ways to make the imperial succession more stable, the paper said, citing unnamed officials...........
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/1/3/apworld/20070103133502&sec=apworld

Thank you for all the newslinks Mandy - much appreciated. It's very sad indeed that they aren't going to change the succession laws.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I can understand on some level wanting to keep tradition and history and all that stuff going......but at some point you have to take a step back and say, "This just isn't going to work anymore."

I feel for the CP couple, because of situations beyond their control, they were blessed with a beautiful daughter, and not a son. So now the little girl must pay for that, which to me is the height of inequality and unfairness.

 

[Furienna]

Why do you say Aiko "must pay"? You make it sound like she will suffer all her life because of this. But she might not want to become empress after all when she grows up.

 

[Lox]

The question is, will they put the former imperial branches, which lost their imperial status after WWII, back in the line of succession?

 

[Next Star]

Why do you say Aiko "must pay"? You make it sound like she will suffer all her life because of this. But she might not want to become empress after all when she grows up.

We don't know what the princess wants all that we know is that she is not included in the line of succession to the throne because she is a female. Which is seems unfair because Aiko could not pick her gender she born female and that is it.

 

[Emily]

The difference with Aiko and Masako's response to this situation may be quite different, though. Aiko will be raised within the Imperial System and so will accept it as normal. She won't have much to compare it with. Masako was different -- not only was she not raised within that system but in addition she was largely raised abroad with different ideas about personal, social and intellectual freedom. It is the latter freedoms that I think have caused her difficulties when not only re-entering Japan but re-entering the deeply structured atmostphere of the Imperial Family. Aiko will most likely be spared such contrasts in her life.

 

[dragonsfire8]

This all so sad....what have the world come down to?
There needs to be change.....at least get the debate back on track....

 

[el-khanz]

I think they really need to think about their future. They may have Akishino and Hisahito in line to succession after Naruhito but no one knows what will happen tomorrow. What if something happen to those Princes (God forbid) and they don't have any other Prince to heir the throne?
I understand that they have to consider many things before decide to change the constitution. But, at least, they do something regarding the imperial and the country's future.

 

[dragonsfire8]

I think they really need to think about their future. They may have Akishino and Hisahito in line to succession after Naruhito but no one knows what will happen tomorrow. What if something happen to those Princes (God forbid) and they don't have any other Prince to heir the throne?
I understand that they have to consider many things before decide to change the constitution. But, at least, they do something regarding the imperial and the country's future.

Honestly....these people in charge of the IHA are so *Ugh* closed minded, to put it in a nice way, I dont even want to know what or how far they would go if such situation should arise.

Someone should shake things up a bit. It seems to me that Crown Prince Naruhito, who has a streak for protecting his wife and daughter, should be the one to do so. (Maybe beating the crap out of the IHA and a quick round with his younger brother?)

 

[bekalc]

I read somewhere that one of the Ashinko's reasons for trying for another child was his fear that the Japanese government would adopt a situation where, the girl rules (only if there's no other male available) with this possiblity, he'd inherit from his brother and than Kako would inherit. Apparently, that possiblity freaked Ashinko out, because he feared that no one would marry Kako. What Japanese "normal" man would marry the empress? Then, would the Japanese except a foreign husband.

Maybe reform will happen after Hisahito..

 

[dragonsfire8]

I read somewhere that one of the Ashinko's reasons for trying for another child was his fear that the Japanese government would adopt a situation where, the girl rules (only if there's no other male available) with this possiblity, he'd inherit from his brother and than Kako would inherit. Apparently, that possiblity freaked Ashinko out, because he feared that no one would marry Kako. What Japanese "normal" man would marry the empress? Then, would the Japanese except a foreign husband.

Thats a good one (Akishino freaking out that no "normal" Japanese man would marry his daughter). Really good one. One can imagine that one freaking out. It would actually be funny to watch.

However, if the government allows girls to rule, I believe Princess Aiko would be in line for the throne after her father, the Crown Prince, then it would go to Akishino, her uncle, then her cousins, Kako, Mako, then Hisahito.

As for foreign people marrying into the imperial family...I won't rule it out entirely....but I dont think it would be possible since they willl probably freak out even more...that is if this succession crisis is anything to go by....but anything is posible, who knows?

 

[Leonie]

i think people are forgetting here if princess's Kako and Mako marry they will no longer be in the line of succession and seeing as there are no japanese princes at there age or even around it the chance of it happening is very certain same will happen with Princess Aiko, they lose there titles and membership in the imperial family upon marriage, taking the surnames of their husbands, so there for they basically become "commoners". This will always happen even if the salic law is changed unless they change the 1947 law of females losing there place when they marry commoners aswell.

Considering the ages of Prince Hitachi (1935) Prince Mikasa (1914) Prince Tomohito (1941) and Prince Katsura (1948 - who is paralyzed from the waist down and never married) when little Prince Hisahito comes to the throne with no change in the succession laws then there is very high chances of him being the only prince left in the family (not considering if he has married and had a son yet) all the males would have already passed away and all the females would have already had to leave the imperial family, and if by some chance there is a women left she wouldn't be able to go on the throne anyways.

If they don't want to change this salic law then they should at least change the fact that when women marry whether its a commoner or not they should not lose there place in the family, therefore there would be more chance of a male being born within the family seeing as former Princess Takako actually produced a son whether his had a son i dont know the same with former princess Masako i dont know what children she has, and there is still time for former princess Sayako to produce children. With this law the family have limited there chance of having males born by i would think over 90% with the amount of females born into the family.

 

[Amina]

i think people are forgetting here if princess's Kako and Mako marry they will no longer be in the line of succession and seeing as there are no japanese princes at there age or even around it the chance of it happening is very certain same will happen with Princess Aiko, they lose there titles and membership in the imperial family upon marriage, taking the surnames of their husbands, so there for they basically become "commoners". This will always happen even if the salic law is changed unless they change the 1947 law of females losing there place when they marry commoners aswell.

Considering the ages of Prince Hitachi (1935) Prince Mikasa (1914) Prince Tomohito (1941) and Prince Katsura (1948 - who is paralyzed from the waist down and never married) when little Prince Hisahito comes to the throne with no change in the succession laws then there is very high chances of him being the only prince left in the family (not considering if he has married and had a son yet) all the males would have already passed away and all the females would have already had to leave the imperial family, and if by some chance there is a women left she wouldn't be able to go on the throne anyways.

If they don't want to change this salic law then they should at least change the fact that when women marry whether its a commoner or not they should not lose there place in the family, therefore there would be more chance of a male being born within the family seeing as former Princess Takako actually produced a son whether his had a son i dont know the same with former princess Masako i dont know what children she has, and there is still time for former princess Sayako to produce children. With this law the family have limited there chance of having males born by i would think over 90% with the amount of females born into the family.

Well put - i agree with everything you have said. If only the IHA was as forward thinking as you.

 

[Furienna]

Yeah, there have to be some changes. Since the princes no longer have concubines, the number of heirs is very limited, especially if only males with imperial blood on their paternal side can be heirs. I don't know whether to support princess Aiko or prince Hisahito though. Aiko is the crown prince's only child, and if he becomes emperor, he should be succeeded by his child, not by his nephew. However, Hisahito is a boy, and therefor, he can keep the family line going, which the girls in the family can't.

 

[bekalc]

Yeah, there have to be some changes. Since the princes no longer have concubines, the number of heirs is very limited, especially if only males with imperial blood on their paternal side can be heirs. I don't know whether to support princess Aiko or prince Hisahito though. Aiko is the crown prince's only child, and if he becomes emperor, he should be succeeded by his child, not by his nephew. However, Hisahito is a boy, and therefor, he can keep the family line going, which the girls in the family can't.

Yes, but the rules have always been that only the closest male heir suceedes. I'm sure there are cases in the line before where this sort of thing happened. When you think about it, its Hisahito's birth right now, not Aiko's.

It's not like this is property, or money. This is a heridary role that's been passed down to males in the family for 2,000 years. It's not like there is anything fair or equaitable about monarchies in the first place. Aiko will not want for money, and may even have a better future if she is passed by.

The idea that Aiko's Is the crown Prince's child and Hisahito is only the nephew doesn't mean Aiko would be the better ruler. Any more then the Crown Prince being elder than his brother makes him somehow more worthy.

But the rules have always been the eldest son inherits, and that if you want your child to inherit, it has to be a boy.

If they are going to change the roles, they need to do it now, not 20/30 years from now or even 10 years from now because that would be a gross unfairness to Hisahito, and put Aiko in a position she's not ready for.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

There was no such recorded thing that only males with Emperor on their father's side could succeed the crysanthemum throne before the Meiji restoration.

This was only put into paper when they had the Meiji restoration and were in contact with Europe. They then copied Prussian's constitution, including the ban of women on the throne.

Before that, the throne was up for grabs. The default heir is the son of the Emperor, but if he doesn't have any, a council decides who shall succeed the throne, and women were eligible as long as they're imperial princesses.

Also, pedigree was a non-issue either, since everyone had imperial blood on both their father's and mother's side. Even the concubines were of imperial blood from cadet branches.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

i think people are forgetting here if princess's Kako and Mako marry they will no longer be in the line of succession and seeing as there are no japanese princes at there age or even around it the chance of it happening is very certain same will happen with Princess Aiko, they lose there titles and membership in the imperial family upon marriage, taking the surnames of their husbands, so there for they basically become "commoners". This will always happen even if the salic law is changed unless they change the 1947 law of females losing there place when they marry commoners aswell.

I'm pretty sure that if they ever change the succession law, the Princess' titles and dignity would be kept to go along with it. So the 1947 law would be changed to.

I mean it'll be stupid if they didn't.

 

[bekalc]

There was no such recorded thing that only males with Emperor on their father's side could succeed the crysanthemum throne before the Meiji restoration.

This was only put into paper when they had the Meiji restoration and were in contact with Europe. They then copied Prussian's constitution, including the ban of women on the throne.

Before that, the throne was up for grabs. The default heir is the son of the Emperor, but if he doesn't have any, a council decides who shall succeed the throne, and women were eligible as long as they're imperial princesses.

Also, pedigree was a non-issue either, since everyone had imperial blood on both their father's and mother's side. Even the concubines were of imperial blood from cadet branches.

Yes, but history shows that the females served as placeholders, and their kids didn't necessarisly suceed them, unless they were the child of the emperor etc. The issue isn't so much Aiko as Aiko's kids inheriting. Her kids won't have imperial blood from their father's side.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Yes, but history shows that the females served as placeholders, and their kids didn't necessarisly suceed them, unless they were the child of the emperor etc. The issue isn't so much Aiko as Aiko's kids inheriting. Her kids won't have imperial blood from their father's side.

History never even mentioned they were place holders. They were treated as sovereigns in their own right. They even get the title of "Tenno". And only a Japanese sovereign has that title. Not even foreign emperors are called that, they have a different word for foreign emperors. Only contemporary historians say they're placeholders.

The Emperor on the father side wasn't an issue until after the Meiji restoration, when Japan modeled their new constitution after Prussia's that officially banned women from the throne.

Oh and yes, one Empress passed the throne to her daughter. The reason most of them weren't succeeded by their offspring is simple: they didn't have an offspring to succeed them. Also, they were so inbred back then, that they only marry each other, that there was really no way of worrying about having imperial blood from either parents.

 

[Furienna]

But because every tenno had imperial blood on their father's side (and oftenly also on their mother's side), the line could still go on. Even when imperial women (princesses) became sovereigns in their own rights, they were succeeded by other members of the imperial family with imperial blood on their father's side. Am I not right? It wouldn't be wrong if Princess Aiko became a sovereign empress, since her parents are likely to become emperor and empress. But what would happen after her? Unless she got married to her cousin Hisahito (which I doubt will happen) or a noble-man with imperial background (which is a little bit more likely, but it's still not to be expected), her son or daughter would become the first tenno ever with no imperial blood on his or her father's side. Prince Hisahito may be only a nephew of an emperor, as his parents will likely never be emperor and empress, but he can follow the tradition in a way, that Aiko and Kako and Mako can't.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

But because every tenno had imperial blood on their father's side (and oftenly also on their mother's side), the line could still go on. Even when imperial women (princesses) became sovereigns in their own rights, they were succeeded by other members of the imperial family with imperial blood on their father's side. Am I not right? It wouldn't be wrong if Princess Aiko became a sovereign empress, since her parents are likely to become emperor and empress. But what would happen after her? Unless she got married to her cousin Hisahito (which I doubt will happen) or a noble-man with imperial background (which is a little bit more likely, but it's still not to be expected), her son or daughter would become the first tenno ever with no imperial blood on his or her father's side. Prince Hisahito may be only a nephew of an emperor, as his parents will likely never be emperor and empress, but he can follow the tradition in a way, that Aiko and Kako and Mako can't.

Again, this whole "Emperor on the father's side" wasn't thought up until after the Meiji restoration. They weren't worried about which parent had a father for an emperor back then. It was a non-issue. This is purely a contemporary thinking for the imperial house law. This is just a justification to prevent women from ascending the throne.

Also, what's wrong with having an a Tenno with no imperial blood/Emperor on his/her father's side? Are women not good enough to carry the bloodline?

 

[Charlotte1]

Again, this whole "Emperor on the father's side" wasn't thought up until after the Meiji restoration. They weren't worried about which parent had a father for an emperor back then. It was a non-issue. This is purely a contemporary thinking for the imperial house law. This is just a justification to prevent women from ascending the throne.

Also, what's wrong with having an a Tenno with no imperial blood/Emperor on his/her father's side? Are women not good enough to carry the bloodline?

It's not the bloodline, current day conservatives use science. It's the y chromosome that supposedly has come down in an unbroken line from Amaterasu. Only males have a y chromosome. ( Don't know how this y chromosome was supposed to have started as Amaterasu was female!?)
I do agree that these rules and regulations were put in place at the Meiji restoration, and a few extras have been added with the increase in scientific knowledge.
It's debatable whether the current Emperor's line does go all the way back, as some of the early Emperors may have not actually existed and were mythical. Conservatives of course are appalled that this could be suggested.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

It's not the bloodline, current day conservatives use science. It's the y chromosome that supposedly has come down in an unbroken line from Amaterasu. Only males have a y chromosome. ( Don't know how this y chromosome was supposed to have started as Amaterasu was female!?)
I do agree that these rules and regulations were put in place at the Meiji restoration, and a few extras have been added with the increase in scientific knowledge.
It's debatable whether the current Emperor's line does go all the way back, as some of the early Emperors may have not actually existed and were mythical. Conservatives of course are appalled that this could be suggested.

No, they used science to JUSTIFY the preservation of the bloodline through the male line by the use of the Y chromosome because they don't want ruling Empresses.

The IHA and most members of parliament are currently very conservative. Most of them think that women shouldn't even have careers.

But again, as I've said, this was a non-issue back in the day.

I still don't get why the IHA still gets involved. House Laws should be up to the Imperial Family. They don't even have symbolic powers like the European monarchs, they should at least have a say in what goes in within their family.