Succession and Membership Issues

[Charlotte1]

I still don't get why the IHA still gets involved. House Laws should be up to the Imperial Family. They don't even have symbolic powers like the European monarchs, they should at least have a say in what goes in within their family.

But considering that until Akihito and Michiko married in 1958 Imperial Family members weren't even allowed to live together as a family they've made progress. Hirohito apparently was quite surprised that when as Crown Prince he did the Grand Tour of Europe in the early 1920's he saw that the European crown princes all lived with their families.
Elizabeth Grey Vinning's book "Windows for the Crown Prince" is a fascinating look into the life of the post WW2 Imperial Household. She was Akihito's English tutor and also writes about how she tried for at least Akihito and his brother to live in the same house, she managed to get the courtiers to agree to 3 days a week they would be in the same house together.
Present day Imperial Family members have more say in what goes on within their family compared to the past, as Michiko said in one of her birthday interviews, she did what she could and hopes that others will be able to continue.
The IHA courtiers though have the collective to be concerned about, the preservation of the historical tradition ( albeit only going back to the Meiji restoration). No change is good, and yes the current Japanese government is very conservative and has fewer female parliamentarians than when women were given the vote in the 1940s.

 

[Furienna]

Again, this whole "Emperor on the father's side" wasn't thought up until after the Meiji restoration. They weren't worried about which parent had a father for an emperor back then. It was a non-issue. This is purely a contemporary thinking for the imperial house law. This is just a justification to prevent women from ascending the throne.?

You also keep saying, that they copied the Prussian succession laws, and that has got me thinking. Because during the WWII, there were no more kings in Prussia. The last Prussian king was also a German emperor, and he abdicated after the WWI. Was there even succession laws left in 1945, or did they copy really old succession laws, from before 1918? And I don't think any royal house in Europe actually prevented women from taking the thrown. After all, Christianity prevented all European royals from having more than one spouse at one time, which limited the number of legal heirs to the throwns, even though most princes and kings still had mistresses and illegitimate children. So even if they prefered men on the throwns, women could also become sovereigns, if they had no brothers. But in Japan, there were plenty of imperial boys born in very generation into the 20th century, since there were many concubines, and all their sons became legal heirs. So keeping all girls from the thrown made more sense in Japan than in Prussia.

Also, what's wrong with having an a Tenno with no imperial blood/Emperor on his/her father's side? Are women not good enough to carry the bloodline?

It's about tradition. All imperial and royal houses are based on tradition. If these traditions are changed too much, then there's no point in having monarchies at all. And it's not about women not being good enough. It's just that a woman can't carry her dynasty further.

 

[Charlotte1]

You also keep saying, that they copied the Prussian succession laws, and that has got me thinking. Because during the WWII, there were no more kings in Prussia. The last Prussian king was also a German emperor, and he abdicated after the WWI. Was there even succession laws left in 1945, or did they copy really old succession laws, from before 1918? And I don't think any royal house in Europe actually prevented women from taking the thrown. After all, Christianity prevented all European royals from having more than one spouse at one time, which limited the number of legal heirs to the throwns, even though most princes and kings still had mistresses and illegitimate children. So even if they prefered men on the throwns, women could also become sovereigns, if they had no brothers. But in Japan, there were plenty of imperial boys born in very generation into the 20th century, since there were many concubines, and all their sons became legal heirs. So keeping all girls from the thrown made more sense in Japan than in Prussia.

The Meiji Restoration began in 1868, it came about as a response to the forced opening up of Japan by Commodore Matthew Perry. Up until then except for a small enclave near Nagasaki, no foreigners were allowed in Japan. Commodore Perry and his gunships overpowered the Japanese. It was decided by the Japanese leadership to go out into the western world and take what was best of what they saw and bring it back to Japan. Prussia was the superpower of its day, the Japanese admired its military strength and system of government centered around an Emperor.
Japan had Emperors up until then but were very much in the background, the rulers were the Shoguns, just before the Meiji restoration most Japanese of the time wouldn't have even been sure that the Emperor still existed.
The new Emperor was only a teenager, he was installed and the system of government modelled on the Prussian was introduced. The indigneous Japanese religion Shinto was reconfigured to centre around the Emperor and he became a direct descendent of the goddess Amaterasu. Also male only succession was introduced.
Regardless of whether or not Prussia existed Japan kept to the constitution it adopted in the 1880's, modelled on the Prussian.
The constitution adopted after WW2 changed the previous militaristic constitution, got rid of the minor royals and restricted the Imperial Family to the descendents of Emperor Taisho but still kept the female only succession. ( Which considering at the time, Denmark, Sweden and Norway also had female only succession wasn't all that unusual)

There actually were not many Imperial boys from the main line coming into the 20th century. Emperor Meiji had numerous children but only one surviving boy born to a concubine ( Lady in waiting is the polite Japanese term). Emperor Taisho ( Meiji's son) fathered 4 sons by his wife. In the 1930's Hirohito was pushed by IHA courtiers to take a concubine after his wife gave birth to 4 daughters in a row but he refused and eventually fathered 2 sons. Concubines haven't actually been used since the mid 19th century.

There are examples of European Royal Houses that wouldn't allow women to succeed well into the 20th century. Denmark allowed female succession in 1953, Sweden 1980 and Norway in 1991. The current kings of Sweden and Norway's sisters are not and never have been in the line of succession as they were born before the laws were changed.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

It's about tradition. All imperial and royal houses are based on tradition. If these traditions are changed too much, then there's no point in having monarchies at all. And it's not about women not being good enough. It's just that a woman can't carry her dynasty further.

Tradition is overrated. If it's changed too much there's no point in having a monarchy?

Well, let's abolish all the current Monarchies that had Salic Law and changed to allow women on the throne then.

Bye bye to: Danish royals, Swedish royals, Nepalese royals, Belgian royals, Dutch royals, etc.

A Monarchy should be able to adapt. If it can't adapt, then it's a weak monarchy, and must be abolished.

And a woman can't carry her dynasty further? Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands should rise from the grave and knock some sense into you. Currently, females are dominant in the Dutch Royal House, and with the Prince of Orange's three daughters, it looks like women will continue to rule and keep furthering that dynasty.

 

[Next Star]

I am liking what I am reading go two thumbs up CrownaprinceLorenzo. I agree with you on having women being included in the line of succession to the throne and just not men.Tradition, tradition that same lame excuse has been used too many times it is so boring.My feelings will not change on the this law but things change and people too. For hundrerds of years women have carried the family line within monarchies and now to try to stop that would be non sense a woman can be a monarch just like a man. I could name several queens true what you said CrownPrinceLorezno that females dominant the Dutch royal family and have been doing that for thousands of years.There are more queens in Dutch history than kings showing that a female can carry a family line. I hope Japan one day sees this too and will allow a female emperor to be head of state some day.

 

[marian]

Will Naruhito resign the throne?

Will it be a good solution? Naruhito, for me, he should yield his rights to the throne to his brother. Will it he hurt him that his daughter is discriminated?
I think that he is an intelligent man and that it was hard for his wife to have a daughter and not a son. That pressed there is been duty the two.

 

[scooter]

Given that they had InVitro, and given that the technology to choose the gender of the embryo before it was implanted, Masako and naruhito could have chosen to have a male fetus implanted. They chose not to, for whatever reason. Perhaps they have had such a bad experience, and they see his sister escaping the 'prison' of the IHA with her marriage....perhaps they deliberately chose not to have a boy?

 

[Elspeth]

I've renamed this thread "Succession Issues" because the current Japanese government has ruled out the possibility of reform of the succession for the forseeable future.

The new remit means that a couple of other threads have been merged with this one.

Elspeth

Japan moderator

 

[Jo of Palatine]

IThere are more queens in Dutch history than kings showing that a female can carry a family line.

There are exactly the same amount of kings and queen regnants: Willem I, II. and III. to queens Wilhelmina, Juliana and Beatrix. As Catherina will be queen after her father Willem IV., it stands to reason it's going to stay on par for this century. Ah, and the Netherlands only became a kingdom with the Nassau-Orange as souverains at the congress of Vienna in 1815. So it's not even 200 years. Before Napoleon created the kingdom of Holland for his brother, the Netherlands were a republic with the Nassau-Orange as their ruling family.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Given that they had InVitro, and given that the technology to choose the gender of the embryo before it was implanted, Masako and naruhito could have chosen to have a male fetus implanted. They chose not to, for whatever reason. Perhaps they have had such a bad experience, and they see his sister escaping the 'prison' of the IHA with her marriage....perhaps they deliberately chose not to have a boy?

I don't think we know enough about the Shinto religion to be able to say that they selected the gender. The fact that they had In-vitro does not mean they actually selected the gender of the child. It could be that they left it up to fate which child would get a chance to live.

 

[Lox]

I was under the impression that the succession law would be changed, meaning that the former imperial branches, which lost their imperial status after WWII, would be put back in the line of succession. Will this change take place or have they given up on this to?

 

[Furienna]

I wouldn't think so. They haven't been imperial for sixty years. Most of them weren't even born yet, when they lost their status. I don't see how that could happen.

 

[Charlotte1]

I was under the impression that the succession law would be changed, meaning that the former imperial branches, which lost their imperial status after WWII, would be put back in the line of succession. Will this change take place or have they given up on this to?

One of the options that the committee set up to look at the succession considered was to reinstate the former imperial branches but it wasn't considered a serious option. The committee recommended that females be allowed to succeed. Then Prince Hisahito was born and the whole succession discussion has been put on the backburner, the legislation to change to allow female succession was let go.

There is no official information that Masako and Naruhito used IVF it's only speculation.

The Emperor preforms certain Shinto rituals that can only be performed by a male, Shinto priests are male only. But it was only at the Meiji restoration (starting in 1868) that the Shinto religion was reconfigured to centre around the Emperor. It didn't before and therefore there was no problem with having a female Emperor. There is no long thousand year plus tradition of the Emperor preforming these Shinto rituals.

 

[Lox]

One of the options that the committee set up to look at the succession considered was to reinstate the former imperial branches but it wasn't considered a serious option. The committee recommended that females be allowed to succeed. Then Prince Hisahito was born and the whole succession discussion has been put on the backburner, the legislation to change to allow female succession was let go.

This article from January this year claims that Abe
"plans to encourage debate on other ways to make the imperial succession more stable."
Report: Japan to drop plan to allow female monarch

Surely that means that the only option is to put the former imperial branches back in the succession again? Are there any other ways of making the succession more stable, without allowing females to succeed? Concubines, maybe?

 

[Charlotte1]

This article from January this year claims that Abe
"plans to encourage debate on other ways to make the imperial succession more stable."
Report: Japan to drop plan to allow female monarch

Surely that means that the only option is to put the former imperial branches back in the succession again? Are there any other ways of making the succession more stable, without allowing females to succeed? Concubines, maybe?

Plans to make the imperial succession more stable, also includes allowing the princesses to remain as part of the Imperial Family when they marry so they can carry out the duties that the current members carry out. They've got their male heir, at some stage in the future female succession more than likely will become a reality. Traditionalists are old, they die off, young Japanese are indifferent to the Imperial Family, they don't want to get rid of them they just don't care one way or another much about them. Prince Minister Abe is a traditionalist but his term, assuming that he gets re-elected ends after 5 years he has to pass the leadership on to someone else then. The issues relating to succession in the Imperial Family will be dealt with many years in the future, when there is a completely different generation at the helm.

 

[monica17]

Plans to make the imperial succession more stable, also includes allowing the princesses to remain as part of the Imperial Family when they marry so they can carry out the duties that the current members carry out. They've got their male heir, at some stage in the future female succession more than likely will become a reality. Traditionalists are old, they die off, young Japanese are indifferent to the Imperial Family, they don't want to get rid of them they just don't care one way or another much about them. Prince Minister Abe is a traditionalist but his term, assuming that he gets re-elected ends after 5 years he has to pass the leadership on to someone else then. The issues relating to succession in the Imperial Family will be dealt with many years in the future, when there is a completely different generation at the helm.

Hear, hear! Hope the scenario described above will happen. I really think the princesses should remain part of the Imperial Family when they marry. What was decreed after WW2 is not applicable anymore! Look, the Emperor and Empress have such a heavy workload at their age, the others should help out and not get kicked out!

 

[Next Star]

There are exactly the same amount of kings and queen regnants: Willem I, II. and III. to queens Wilhelmina, Juliana and Beatrix. As Catherina will be queen after her father Willem IV., it stands to reason it's going to stay on par for this century. Ah, and the Netherlands only became a kingdom with the Nassau-Orange as souverains at the congress of Vienna in 1815. So it's not even 200 years. Before Napoleon created the kingdom of Holland for his brother, the Netherlands were a republic with the Nassau-Orange as their ruling family.

Where did you read this? From my knowledge William III was the last king after him nothing but queens. Males were born back in the family until the 1970's. Back to the topic males and females can both be head of state no matter what type of government the people choose. In this case we are talking about a maonarchy which can allow change this is the 21 st century not ancient times.

 

[scooter]

I don't think we know enough about the Shinto religion to be able to say that they selected the gender. The fact that they had In-vitro does not mean they actually selected the gender of the child. It could be that they left it up to fate which child would get a chance to live.

Well, I dont know anything about Shinto, but I do know something about IVF. The technology presently does routine genetic preimplantation screening so as to not knowingly implant an embryo with an obvious defect. At the same time that this is done, the gender of the child is 100% known for sure. If it was such a priority to have a male heir, why not implant male embryos? The only obvious answer to me is either that the only health embyos were female, or perhaps they wanted their child to be able to escape the confines of the IHA.....the only way out is to not be a male! BTW, I lost where I asked the question before but what do you think would happen if Naruhito and Masako jus said "We're going to the beach" or wherever? Would they be physically restrained? If it's just habit and prescedent that keeps them there, that's really too bad. Masako is a Harvard MBA with a background in diplomacy. I think it's a great loss for the JIF and Japan in general.

 

[PrincessElena]

I think it's pretty nasty what they have done to poor Princess Aiko, since they will not change the laws and she won't be Empress. It's a pity...so I will actually be curious of the future thought, what would happen to poor Prince Hisahito? Would the IHA force him to have like 10 kids or take concubines?

 

[Furienna]

I know... In one way, I understand these people. They want the male blood line to continue and prefer (or demand) men only on the thrown. But times have changed. Because there are no concubines anymore (and good riddens for that), there aren't as many children born into the imperial family anymore. There are now three little princesses and only one little prince. The future will be very tough for poor Hisahito. There's no brother or cousin, who can secure the succession, if something happened to him. Everyone will depend on him. And what if he has no son, or no children at all? The Japanese have to look over the succession laws. There has to be a security, so that Hisahito doesn't have to bear the whole burden by himself. Why not allow the princesses to take the thrown, if something happens? Or why can't children of (former) princesses be considered? Something has to be done.

 

[tete]

I heard somewhere that Prime Minister Abe has initiated or is trying to start some discussion into alternative measures to deal with the succession crisis. Is this true? If so, what are the latest developments into that?

 

[Elspeth]

I don't know - since if anything he's more conservative than the last PM, I doubt anything serious is being done although they might be starting to talk about options for the future if this problem happens again in the next generation.

Do you have a link to an article about this?

 

[Vanesa]

I hope they could so something possitive regarding this issue. They must solve it. Throwing troubles generation to generation is not the way to do things.

Being raised in another culture, I think it's O.K a woman could be Queen or Empress. European History may speak about a lot of Queens by their own right, for example Catherine of Russia , Marie-Theresia of Austria, Elizaeth I of England, Isabel la Católica of Spain, Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom and so on... whose rules were excellent and in any way inferior to their men-colleagues. In some cases, European .

But I don't know Japanese case, and what japanese people things about this issue. I think that the last word must be heard from them. I think it will be a good thing if women could be Tenno in Japan nowadays...but if I was a Japanese I should not accept that this particular question (nor any other referring to succesion laws, or political issues) should be impossed by the West. They must be convinced THEMSELVES of it. Things that are forced by external powers doesn't last much.

Of course, I hope that some day, I could see a woman as a Tenno. But these are MY personal wishes, and maybe they are not those of Japanese people...Cultural issues are not easy, people...

Vanesa.

 

[Furienna]

There have been female tennos, but the last one was in the 18th century. The problem is, that even though there have been female tennos, the blood line was never broken. Every tenno for two thousand years, male or female, have had the same family line on their father's side. If princess Aiko, or Mako or Kako for that matter, became a tenno, it would be okay until her death, but her children would be the first imperials ever, who don't have the long imperial line on their father's side. It doesn't seem like a big deal here in Europe, where dynasties have changed over the centuries. But this is Japan, the country with the oldest surviving monarchal family in the world. No matter what we think about it, we have to take that into consideration. However, since the heirs are fewer now than in earlier generations, some changes have to be made.

 

[Vanesa]

I do not think that a women may "broke" a succesory line...Is just the same. The blood the Princess has in her veins is the same than her brother, a Prince should have...The important think is tradition and roots. As you say, there were women Tenno at 18 Century...and it doesn't really broke their dinasty. If you read any Historical cronic about Royalty in the world, you'll see that is always told that "Japan Imperial Family is by now the most ancient dinasty ruling nowadays". So, nothing really broken there.

In Spain, women could be rulers by their own right, until Bourbons (who were from French roots, and Frenchs didn't like women at the throne) came to sit in the Habsburgs Throne and changed the laws to salic ones. So, the only thing that Spaniards from nowadays will do if they changes the succesories laws, is to return to their past.So, you see...tradition is only logical thought. And of course, tradition could be carried by women too.

My only point about Princess Aiko being the future Tenno is what Japanese people REALLY wants, and if we are not US, Westerns who are pushing them to them to change. I'm aganist obliging countries to make their rules as other countries should like them. I'm with people's autodetermination. Don't forget that after WWII Japanese Imperial Family was dragged to accept a lot of reforms that they shouldn't want, and that even before that, after the Meiji Revolution, the West impossed some of its points of view in Japan too. People must be tired of being told what they must do. Before, the West should not accept women ruling in more weak countries, now, the thing it's "à la mode". I wish countries should make their laws not for being "à la page" (in fashion), but for feeling them deeply.

Good luck to Japan. Decided what they decided it must be THEIR decission and not ours.

Vanesa.

 

[Furienna]

I do not think that a women may "broke" a succesory line...Is just the same. The blood the Princess has in her veins is the same than her brother, a Prince should have....

It's been hard for me to explain the difference between the blood and the family line. When it comes to the blood, or to be more modern and scientific, the DNA, it doesn't matter if it comes from the mother or the father. But a family line, a dynasty, can really only be followed by men. We women can pass on the DNA just as well as men, but we can't carry on a family line or a dynasty... Well, I guess it won't make sense this time either. But I'm just saying...


​

 

[Vanesa]

I don't think that DNA could be important for tradition issues. I think that education and what you see and learn in your family is the important thing. But sure, all people cannot think alike and it's good that it could be this way. Furthermore, tradition is all about this: particularity; people doing things following their own way. Is precisely for that my personal toughts about the matter is: Yes; women could be excellent rulers. But again, it's Japanese people who must decide about it.

Vanesa.

 

[PrincessElena]

I find it interesting that whenever Modern Japan had a succession crisis, it always got solved, thus never letting women take the throne...

Emperor Osahito -> had 6 children, but only a son survived who would later become Emperor Mutsuhito

Emperor Mutsuhito -> had 15 children, 5 survived including a son who would be the Emperor Yoshihito

Emperor Yoshihito -> had 4 children, had only sons and among them was the eldest Emperor Hirohito

Emperor Hirohito -> had 7 children, including the Emperor Akihito

Emperor Akihito -> had 4 children, including Naruhito

...who knows maybe Hisahito will have only sons? I am sure the IHA would be very happy of that!

 

[Vanesa]

I'm beginning to imagine IHA as a sinister monster shotuing aloud: "Muhahahaha...I will ruler for everrrr!!!!" And I'm asking to myself WHAT IHA really is and if it really is so sinister.

I read some posts where IHA was blamed almost for all bad things that are happening in the Imperial Family. I'm amazed they didn't blame it for the Crownprince's polyp!I recently read a very interesting post (sadly I don't rememer who wrote it. I must go check this out) in which a member of the Forums explained that IHA was not that sinister, but that was trying to help Imperial Family in all they can. I suppose that, as always, truth must be in the just middle.

I hope that things could be solved in favor of Princess Aiko. It would be nice for her.

vanesa.

 

[Furienna]

I think the ship has sailed for Princess Aiko since Prince Hisahito was born.