Succession and Membership Issues


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
There is a simple solution to this: Aiko gets to be Tenno and she marries Hasiato, who as consort will still have the same imperial bloodline that qualifies him to be emperor. Thus, when their first born suceeds to his MOTHER'S throne, the blood line will still not have been broken.

That would be a "perferct" solution, but... forcing Aiko to marry her first cousin in order to to succeed to the throne certainly would not please Japanese people (imagine someone telling you that you can be empress only if you have sex with your first cousin). It would in fact be the most disgusting action of IHA.
 
I don't know as much as other folks who post here, but it seems to me that Aiko's father is going to be emperor at some point in the future.

As emperor, will he not have power over the IHA? I genuinely do not know if his position will allow for him to make changes in the IHA that ultimately could result in a change in succession.

I think we all - myself included - keep losing sight of the fact that between the existing emperor and the youngest generation is a Crown Prince who will most likely come to the throne and whatever powers it conveys in the next decade.
 
He'll have some powers, but the IHA knows it can wait him out. And career bureaucrats are experts in the art of stalling. His dream of himself and Masako being a reformist imperial couple has already taken a hit because of the way her illness has marginalised her. His traditionalist brother, if he succeeds Naruhito, can undo all the reforms he manages to institute; if the brother doesn't succeed him, the chances are that the nephew, who's 40 years younger, will be so young when he succeeds that the IHA will run rings around him, and anyway he'll have been educated by his traditionalist father. The birth of Prince Hisahito coupled with the divisions in the family and the disappointment over Masako's health and effectiveness have pretty much rendered Naruhito irrelevant, IMO.

The only thing that might make a difference is if Naruhito has a long reign and the IHA has to face the reality of letting married princesses stay in the family during his reign rather than putting it off till the era of the Akishino family, thus meaning that Aiko will remain in the imperial family after she marries. That might mean that people will start asking how come she isn't her father's heir.
 
If the IHA is traditionalist like Prince Akishino but not Prince Naruhito, then it's to the IHA's great advantage for the succession to move to the younger brother and not down the Crown Prince's line. That way, the Crown Prince can try to make all the reforms he wants to - the IHA knows it can just wait him out. And Prince Hisahito is being raised by his traditionalist father, not his reformist uncle.

I would not call prince Akishino traditionalist. In order to be traditionalist he would need to have principles, traditionalist principles in that case. But I think that he has as much principles, traditionalist or reformist or whatever, as a cat: If he wants to marry before his elder brother – which is against tradition – he will be a mightily modern man. And if his favouring the male succession offers him the opportunity to attain a higher status for himself he will support the traditionalists with much zeal. But, in any case, it is always about what he wants and what is comfortable for him.

I agree in so far with you as I think that he will be easy to handle by the establishment. As long as his personal needs and wishes are well taken care of he will certainly not quarrel with them and will let them do whatever they think best. But if we called such a way of behaviour traditionalist we would, in my opinion, wrong those who really and truly support traditionalist or conservative values.

As for Hisahito, I would not yet despair - you never know. He would not be the first child in history to be raised by his parents with a clear idea about who he should become - and to turn out quite differently... ;) The best example to demonstrate this would be his uncle Naruhito. He was raised in a very severe, rigid way, and, for a Japanese child, in extraordinary isolation. And, in fact, he became the proverbial good boy whom all Japanese mothers could set up as an example to their sons. But hardly did Naru-chan´s parents think that this paragon of obedience would one day be enabled by this very education to stubbornly endure their disapproval, without changing his mind, and to endure it for years… We know that the crown prince is pretty much isolated in his family and probably also among the executives who surround him. Of course, his wife supports him to the best of her ability but she has already succumbed in some measure to the pressure they are living under. But her husband still does not show any signs of breaking down soon. He stands nearly alone but he stands. In a society that is based to such a degree on team playing and conformism as the Japanese this is nearly a miracle. And I do think that the hard and isolated way in which the crown prince was raised is one of the ingredients that made this miracle come true. He has become used by his hard childhood to being on his own and to still finding means to survive somehow. Like the flower in the desert that has impressed him so much… Theme for the New Year's Poetry Reading,2009 (Other important ingredients are probably Naruhito´s strong sense of duty and his conviction of having a mission.)

Naruhito has grown up to show in some respects a completely different behaviour from what his parents had intended in raising him. Likewise, we cannot be sure yet what will become of little Hisahito – he might well surprise us all one day…

Well, in twenty years or so from now, maybe they will have to change some laws. We'll have to wait and see.

If they want to change the law so that the princesses can stay in the family when they marry and support the heir of the throne I am all for it. But that will make any sense only if they do it very soon: whoever will marry an imperial princess has to know - preferably before even courting her but certainly before the engagement takes place - if that means that he will have to stand for the rest of his life in the public limelight and visit foreign states or if he can basically go on with his life as he intended before he fell in love with Mako, Kako or Aiko, with only the nice addition of a luxurious flat in the centre of Tokyo. ;) Mako is nearly grown up, so there is no time to be left.

As emperor, will he not have power over the IHA? I genuinely do not know if his position will allow for him to make changes in the IHA that ultimately could result in a change in succession.

Formally, it is the government and the parliament who have the power to change the succession law. We saw that before Kiko´s third pregnancy was announced, remember? There was a debate going on in the Japanese parliament about changing the law and making Aiko heiress after her father that was put off after the pregnancy had been made public.
So, even as the emperor Naruhito will not be able to directly change the rules of succession. He may be able to do something about it by informal influence but how much is probably impossible to guess.
 
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I would not call prince Akishino traditionalist. In order to be traditionalist he would need to have principles, traditionalist principles in that case. But I think that he has as much principles, traditionalist or reformist or whatever, as a cat: If he wants to marry before his elder brother – which is against tradition – he will be a mightily modern man. And if his favouring the male succession offers him the opportunity to attain a higher status for himself he will support the traditionalists with much zeal. But, in any case, it is always about what he wants and what is comfortable for him.
There was a Vanity Fair article that came out in 1993 shortly after the engagement of the Crown Prince. Akishino was called "fast hands" for his playboy reputation in college and before his marriage. He liked hitting the clubs like other men his age. I heard that Princess Kiko's father was very upset about his daughter's reputation and being involved with Akishino, and insisted they marry or cause a scandal. That was when it was decided that tradition be broken to allow Akishino to marry before his older brother.
 
There was a Vanity Fair article that came out in 1993 shortly after the engagement of the Crown Prince. Akishino was called "fast hands" for his reputation in college and before his marriage. He liked hitting the clubs like other men his age. I heard that Princess Kiko's father was very upset about his daughter's reputation and being involved with Akishino, and insisted they marry or cause a scandal. That was when it was decided that tradition be broken to allow Akishino to marry before his older brother.

Now that you say it it seems to me that Elspeth has mentioned some of this story before. But I did not know the whole thing and where she had got it from. Thank you very much for telling it! I have to admit, though, that in my eyes this story does not make prince Akishino look any more traditionalist… ;)
 
So now that Japan is set to get a new Prime Minister does anyone know his views on the Succession law?
 
I really hope they change the law someday.Do they really need to be dealing with that kind of stuff these days?
 
Seeing their current situation I wonder why they arent changing the succession law like Sweden did and also they souls let princesses marry who they want and keep their titles otherwise the way they have it now they're running into problems in the future I.e. Lack of jp royal males
I guess they will start having to marry their cousins or worse their sisters in order to keep it within the bloodline
 
Seeing their current situation I wonder why they arent changing the succession law ...
The succession laws and the constitution of Japan were written by the American occupation administration (SCAP) in 1947 in order to revert the Emperor Hirohito's monarchy into republic in peaceful way within one or two generations. The abolition of the monarchy was the main goal.
For more info see Occupation of Japan
The Japanese will have to change the constitution first.
 
If the reason only men can inherit the throne is because the family really is 1000yrs old then I do see why the succession law wouldn't be changed. I recall reading somewhere that the present Imperial family can trace their lines back to the Emperor of Japan a thousand years ago. If that is true then I think the succession law should remain;it's not like in Europe when a royal house changes every century. If a woman became Empress and got married and had children, it would be her husbands family who would be the Imperial family and as a result breaking the 1000yr line.
 
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XeniaCasaraghi,
The current succession law was written in 1947 under American occupation administration. This law excludes female members of the Emperor Hirohito's family and their descendants from the line to the throne.
Lurk this thread from the beginning to learn more about the role of the Emperor who is the highest shinto priest (the function which a female Imperial family member can not fulfil).
 
1000 years old? closer to 1700 with any degree of genealogical reliability.
also, there have been a few empresses, so the concept could work
 
I do not understand well the Japanese rules of succession,but if I am not mistaken,I understand that after the current emperor the next will be Naruhito with his wife Masako and only after it,the son of prince Akishino will ascend to the throne.Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I do not understand well the Japanese rules of succession,but if I am not mistaken,I understand that after the current emperor the next will be Naruhito with his wife Masako and only after it,the son of prince Akishino will ascend to the throne.Correct me if I'm wrong.


Doesn't Prince Akishino succeed his brother?
And after him, his son will succeed.
 
:previous: Currently, that's how it stands.

I however think we may Naruhito attempt to change the succession laws in favour of his daughter once he is Emperor. Possibly a referendum on the issue and an internal overhaul of the Imperial Household Agency.

The Japanese will have to change the constitution first.

And here's hoping they do. I believe America now see's the Japanese monarchy as an entirely Japense issue and would not involve itself, and nor should it.

Where there's a will, there's a way so I hope any required amendments are enacted in due course.
 
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:previous: Currently, that's how it stands.

I however think we may Naruhito attempt to change the succession laws in favour of his daughter once he is Emperor. Possibly a referendum on the issue and an internal overhaul of the Imperial Household Agency.


Does he have any support for that?
I thought the Japanese people favored a change in the succession laws, but that was before Princess Kiko had a son.

Once Hisahito was born, there was no longer any desire for a change.
 
I should hope support woud be forthcoming? At the moment he is "only" the Crown Prince, so I can't imagine his fathers advisors would be all that supportive. When he succeeds as Emperor, and an Emperor of the 21st Century at that, I think there will be questions raised and a proposal put to the government and perhaps even the people. Japan, for all it's steadfast traditions, is a progressive country aswell though be it said that everything has it's place and time. Evidently, the 2005/2006 proposal didn't get anywhere with the birth and so it was indefinitely shelved.

I think the Crown Prince and Crown Princess are very well regarded in Japan and there appears to be great empathy towards the Crown Princess and Princess Toshi is adored.

I'm not Japanese so naturally I can't say any of this will come to fruition, but I think there to be a likely chance that when Naruhito succeeds, he'll do what he can to ammend the Laws of Succession for he will be in a much more influential and advantageous position to do so. And I firmly believe that the Imperial Household Agency will be near stripped and re-asigned. Those who currently hold influence will find themselves having drawn the short straw before not too long I imagine.
 
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I think the Crown Prince and Crown Princess are very well regarded in Japan and there appears to be great empathy towards the Crown Princess and Princess Toshi is adored.


I 'm not so sure about that. Lately it seems sympathy has worn thin, and there's more criticism than anything. But time will tell, I suppose. :flowers:
 
The Japanese are a protective bunch. Masako does not come without her detractors, no one ever does ;) but for the most part her psychological health has been something not only the Imperial court has attempted to shield from scrutiny but the public have been deffensive of it as well.

Had the earthquake and tsunami not hit, Masako was said to have been accompanying her husband to London for the wedding. So slowly but surely attempts are being made to intergrate her back into representative life, and on an international scale at that.

As you say, time will tell. A waiting game, no less.
 
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I should hope support woud be forthcoming? At the moment he is "only" the Crown Prince, so I can't imagine his fathers advisors would be all that supportive. When he succeeds as Emperor, and an Emperor of the 21st Century at that, I think there will be questions raised and a proposal put to the government and perhaps even the people. Japan, for all it's steadfast traditions, is a progressive country aswell though be it said that everything has it's place and time. Evidently, the 2005/2006 proposal didn't get anywhere with the birth and so it was indefinitely shelved.

I think the Crown Prince and Crown Princess are very well regarded in Japan and there appears to be great empathy towards the Crown Princess and Princess Toshi is adored.

I'm not Japanese so naturally I can't say any of this will come to fruition, but I think there to be a likely chance that when Naruhito succeeds, he'll do what he can to ammend the Laws of Succession for he will be in a much more influential and advantageous position to do so. And I firmly believe that the Imperial Household Agency will be near stripped and re-asigned. Those who currently hold influence will find themselves having drawn the short straw before not too long I imagine.

No Naruhito won't be changing anything, to start off with he doesn't have the power (even as Emperor) to change the succession laws. The only people who can change the succession laws are the government, Japan is a constitutional monarchy like the British one, the Emperor reigns not rules!

There won't be a referendum on succession laws, and even if there were the concensus with Japanese who are very big on tradition is a female Emperor is OK ONLY if there is no other option. Currently there is another option, Hisahito and he will be Emperor when the time comes.

The Japanese (at least those who follow their monarchy) don't have 'a great deal of empathy for Masako" and Aiko is certainly not 'adored"!!! Masako has more support outside of Japan than inside when she is criticised for not working (see poster Mariko's posts to get a good overview of Japanese attitudes) Aiko is viewed as a somewhat spoilt brat, she goes to a very good school, she's seen as the problem not the school which is bending over backward to support her. (Even before she started the school reduced its class sizes to accomodate Aiko, the school is selective, she never had to pass the selection criteria, the entrance exams)

Masako was highly unlikely to have gone to the wedding in April, not because of her illness or not being allowed to go but because she still attends school each day with Aiko. End of April is a new academic year in Japan (Aiko's in 4th grade now) and so Masako would have been at school making sure she was settling in etc.

Barring something terrible happening to Hisahito he will be Emperor, Aiko like other Japanese princesses since 1947 will marry and then leave the Imperial House.
 
The Japanese (at least those who follow their monarchy) don't have 'a great deal of empathy for Masako" and Aiko is certainly not 'adored"!!! Masako has more support outside of Japan than inside when she is criticised for not working (see poster Mariko's posts to get a good overview of Japanese attitudes)

You are not specifying which of Mariko´s posts you are talking about but I suppose you mean for example these ones:
Mariko said:
Our Royal Family had so much respect and so many people wish that the time can go back before the CP Naruhito's wedding to Ms. Masako Owada. We had peace and harmony between our royal family and people. Now we lost that and we can really feel the pain for that. ...The turning point started coming in with CP Masako's illness not being stated by her doctor at the press conference. The people in Japan is not sure what kind of illness she has now and her doctor never appeared in front of the people and never explain directly to us in person.
(In the thread http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f68/should-japan-abolish-the-monarchy-19831-3.html#post1206384 Posts 45 & 49)

As I think it is a bit risky to rely on just one individual person to represent THE opinion of a whole nation (even if she claims herself to speak for everybody), I will also give the following link, just for a balance (not that I think that two is much better, but, like everybody, I am doing the best I can with the awareness I have...;)):

Pamina said:
I’m a Japanese and let me make this clear: strong resentment against the Crown Princess Masako shown in the comments on Times made by the Japanese do not necessarily represent the people’s feeling in the country. There are huge crowds of enthusiastic well-wishers who happily greet her at any place she shows up. ... Contrary to the criticism againt her in the comments, it seems that many of her people are not much furious than sympathetic to the princess who is under attack for having a little break out of the stifling life in the gilded cage. It is only some Japanese tabloids and Anti-Masako fanatics that are having a fun digging up dirt to smear on the princess.
(In the thread http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...s-adjustment-disorder-15984-8.html#post729569 Posts 146 & 160)

This being said, I agree with Mariko insofar as she complains that the palace is not informing the public of what is really going on. In fact, nobody knows what is really going on behind the scenes, and there is even reason to believe that some of the few things that we ARE told are not the truth. An example: Princess Masako´s condition that she has been suffering from since 2003, that means, for nearly eight years by now, is still officially identified as adjustment disorder - a condition that by definition is acute rather than chronic, not lasting for more than six months. So whatever the problem may be, it rather clearly isn’t adjustment disorder. And that leaves it pretty much to anybody´s guess what or rather: who it is that is to be blamed for this situation.

But as more or less everybody agrees in that the situation is unbearable and urgently needs to be changed, it is obviously very difficult to stay serene and placidly say: „Well, we do not know, it may be like this or it may be like that.“ To the contrary, most people WILL find a culprit, according to their way of generally seeing things. And there are basically two sides: one blames the IHA, Prince Akishino´s ambition and maybe the conservative views of the emperor, the other the crown princely couple as being too modern, westernized, selfish and whatnot. This is a very emotional discussion, and to those among the readers here that are new to it I give a fair warning: both sides will try to convince you with much vehemence that they have THE TRUTH. ;)

If I am allowed to give my two cents worth here: Just do not believe it. Even when they can quote sources, you never know if they are reliable or just PR (see adjustment disorder). The truth you will not get. What you CAN have is an opinion of your own. But then you are obliged to take the trouble and check all the known facts and lies and who said when what to whom and in the end decide yourself whom you believe and what YOU think probably happened (and happens). :flowers:
 
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I've read that Japanese rules of succession that prohibited females to the throne appeared at the end of the XIX century.Taking into account that CP Naruhito and Masako got married in 1993,I wonder why the rules had not been changed after their wedding.
All the information reveals that Masako was very different and lively before her marriage,she is highly intelligent and appeared to be strong person.I wonder what is the attitude of Japanese to all the situation around succession to the throne and it will be interesting to know true Masako's feelings to all it.The other question is about the true relationship of two daughters-in-law of the Emperor,of Princess Masako and Kiko,if they get along well.
 
The other question is about the true relationship of two daughters-in-law of the Emperor,of Princess Masako and Kiko,if they get along well.
I´d like to say something concerning this question but I do not think that this is the right thread. Please follow me here.
 
Currently the succession law of the imperial family of japan is that only males inherit the throne and the heir is crown prince naruhito, but I personally think that the emperor or whomever is in charge of the succession law should have it changed because they have few princes in that royal family and prince hisahito of akishino is the newest one, by letting females able to inherit the throne and their children whether they be male or female it will have a greater chance at the heirs to the throne. Also i think that aiko should be empress because she is the daughter of the crown prince and so should be in line to the throne because she will have three options: marry a cousin so that she remains a princess if japan, marry a commoner lose all royal status and not marry at all. All males in the royal family can marry whomever ,but all females can't and if it's a commoner they leave the royal family and what other royals are there in the Japanese royal family besides your cousins so it's either marry your cousin or marry a commoner. I find that a princess should marry whom she wants and if she decides to marry a commoner than at least make him a prince or duke. The royal family will last longer if only princesses could be able to marry who they want even if it is a commoner and let them be in line to the throne.
 
As Aiko is the only child/daughter of the Crown Prince (future Emperor), she should have a special approval when marrying a commoner and not losing the princess status. the most correct and equal rights was having her as future heiress, but since Japan has salic law, at least give the child a chance to marry whom she wants without leaving the royal family
 
...but I personally think that the emperor or whomever is in charge of the succession law should have it changed ...
It's not the Emperor who can change the law, darling.:)
It's the DIET (Parliament of Japan).
Read this article.
As Aiko is the only child/daughter of the Crown Prince (future Emperor), she should have a special approval when marrying a commoner and not losing the princess status...
And how about the Akishinos' girls? Must they have the same chance (fair play)?
They are the grandchildren of the Emperor too, and the Imperial Highnesses.
And if something goes wrong with Aiko's ability to have offsprings, the Imperial family may extinct in the next generation, may it not?
 
of course they have rights too, i never forgot about them. but i personally said Aiko, because in equal rights, she was supposed to succed the throne after her father, but salic law is a crap thing.
to my eyes, shes more special than her female cousins, but if they were to change it for Aiko when marrying a commoner not losing her title, do it for Mako and Kako too!
 
Japan may allow women to keep imperial status after marriage

Japan's top government spokesman Osamu Fujimura on Friday suggested looking into the possibility of allowing women to retain their imperial status even after marriage.
[...]
According to Fujimura, Shingo Haketa, chief of the Imperial Household Agency briefed Noda on Oct. 5, a month after he launched his government, about the current situation and the future of the imperial family.
Among the concerns raised were that female members are nearing the age of marriage and the provision of the Imperial House Law that requires female members to leave the family when they marry a commoner.
Currently, there are 23 imperial family members, of which eight are unmarried females, including Princess Aiko, 9, the daughter of Crown Prince Naruhito and Crown Princess Masako, and the daughters of Prince Akishino -- Princess Mako, 20 and Princess Kako, 16.
Haketa, the grand steward of the agency, is believed to have told the premier that the imperial family cannot maintain their activities in a stable manner because its members will decrease in the future given the large number of female members, according to sources familiar with the matter.
Some experts have been calling for a revision of the law that would allow female members to maintain their imperial status even after marriage.
Fujimura refuted a local news report that the agency made a request to make such a move possible, and said the government has no immediate plans to amend the law.
Also touching on the imperial succession, Fujimura said the government recognizes that there remains "uncertainty" about how to secure a stable line of succession.

Fujimura says 'stable' system of Imperial succession needed | The Japan Times Online
Japan May Allow Royal Women to Keep Status After Marriage - Japan Real Time - WSJ
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/20111125_22.html
 
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