Furienna
Serene Highness
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- Mar 29, 2006
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Why? What's wrong with keeping male primogeniture?
Sister Morphine said:I completely agree with this. However, I have a really dumb question. Do they know this and just don't care.....or haven't they figured it out? The IHA have to realize that there just isn't any men, aside from the little prince, left to hang around after the females marry and leave the family. And if they do know, it seems like they aren't in any rush to find some way to resolve it.
That is sexiest and favoritism to me by choosing one sex over the other I feel a woman can be as good or if not better than a man by being head of state.Furienna said:Why? What's wrong with keeping male primogeniture?
Elspeth said:I have a feeling that since the current Crown Princess is seen as a problem and the Crown Prince is seen as siding with her against the Emperor and the IHA, they'll be waiting with the reforms until such time as there's no way they could possibly apply to the Crown Prince's family. Maybe if Prince Hisahito doesn't have a bunch of children, they might do something then, at which point, since he'd be the Emperor, it'd be only natural to let his sisters and their offspring back into the Imperial family and forget about Cousin Aiko. If the reform is addressed in Prince Naruhito's lifetime, that wouldn't be possible.
Elspeth said:I have a feeling that since the current Crown Princess is seen as a problem and the Crown Prince is seen as siding with her against the Emperor and the IHA, they'll be waiting with the reforms until such time as there's no way they could possibly apply to the Crown Prince's family. Maybe if Prince Hisahito doesn't have a bunch of children, they might do something then, at which point, since he'd be the Emperor, it'd be only natural to let his sisters and their offspring back into the Imperial family and forget about Cousin Aiko. If the reform is addressed in Prince Naruhito's lifetime, that wouldn't be possible.
Emily said:IMO, there are lots of interesting ideas in the above posts. I have been quiet for a while because I don't know what to think on the succession issue anymore. I've been re-reading many of the interviews of Akihito, Michiko, Naruhito and Masako trying to get a glimmer of understanding about where they might be on this issue. When I first came across the succession problem I was irritated that girls couldn't succeed. When I read about the IHA's intervention to try to get the couples to have more babies, I was incensed that they thought they could manipulate the couples on such a personal decision as to whether to have children -- especially at Kiko's late age and given Masako's health and probable medication-pregnancy complications and even more especially when they seem to already have an excellent candidate in Aiko. When Kiko did become pregnant I hoped the motive was not spite for the CP couple, given some of the barbed comments Akishino has made toward his brother and, depending on your interpretation, some possibly veiled criticisms of his sister-in-law.
Now, more than anything, I hope that the decision about the succession, whatever it ends up being, is one that Naruhito and Masako are happy with. If it ends up that a female succeeding doesn't come to pass in their generation and that is OK with the CP couple, then so be it. I think Masako has been put under ridiculous stress over this issue. She did perform the succession part of her job -- it's just that there seem to be limited male sperm in the If, and that's not her fault. Masako is so talented and with so many constructive things she could put her energy toward, that if she would like to see her daughter liberated from being a puppet dangled about by very conservative puppeteers then I hope that happens. As a woman, I resent that she has been made to suffer so much because she can't have children. The stress of wanting and being unable to have children for a normal couple is very intense and incredibly painful; the stress which has been put upon her has been indecent. I hope she can get on with her life.
In re-reading the posts, the Emperor and Naruhito both have chosen to "refrain" from comments on the succession issue. Yet in the same paragraph in which he "refrained" from commenting, the emperor did add that there were past empresses and did also mention the important role women in the Imperial Family have played. Mind you, he did not speak out in as frank a way as, say, my father would have spoken out to support the strengths of the women in my family -- but given the nuanced way in which the IF members speak, I thought his choice to bring up both issues was probably being supportive of women. In addition, despite Michiko's fragile look, I think this woman has spine. Read the comments she writes about Kiko and Masako -- she's all for letting them have freedoms to evolve to be who they are -- and her own daughter doesn't seem to be a shrinking violet -- in fact she had a career. In addition, Aki and Michi did break with tradition and attend her wedding reception. I think all these things may be indications that the Imperial Family sees women as being qualified to do an awful lot, perhaps even the "top" job. (Well, maybe not Akishino -- but he seems to have ego problems and just needs to grow up a little.) Finally, I do think public opinion is important and I think it can be very powerful but I get the feeling from fellow Japanese posters and from reading news articles that the public voice either isn't strong enough or is made up of only women who aren't adequately represented in the Diet and so the issue isn't getting the attention it deserves. Culturally, I just don't think Japan is there. And if Masako isn't there either -- then I hope the Japanese leave it alone until another generation.
Traditions can be change and woman can carry a family line too.Furienna said:Well, as I see it, succession is about tradition, not equality. And really, men carry the family line further, not women. It's not that women make worse monarchs. But the thrown should go to the person, who should have it according to tradition.
Next Star said:Traditions can be change and woman can carry a family line too.
No one really knowns who will out live who and some women do not take their husbands last name in marriage.Sister Morphine said:My family name will die out with my sister and I because my father's brother changed his name [out of spite to my grandfather] so he, my aunt and my cousins have a different name than we do. So, there will be no one with our last name left after my sister and I are gone. Women can't carry on a family line unless they don't change their name at all...not even hyphenating it, when they marry. Otherwise the child will carry someone else's name.
Next Star said:No one really knowns who will out live who and some women do not take their husbands last name in marriage.
Sister Morphine said:My family name will die out with my sister and I because my father's brother changed his name [out of spite to my grandfather] so he, my aunt and my cousins have a different name than we do. So, there will be no one with our last name left after my sister and I are gone. Women can't carry on a family line unless they don't change their name at all...not even hyphenating it, when they marry. Otherwise the child will carry someone else's name.
Jo of Palatine said:That's the law in Germany: on marrying the couple decides about the family name. His or hers. Then the other partner decides to keep his name (then the kid have the family name but both parents have kept their names) or takes on the family name, if he/she wishes with the former name added to it.)
If one partner has a part of the name that was formerly a title and they decide on this name as family name, then all members of the family can use this name part. Eg. Anette Princess of ThisandThat is the last of her very old family. In times of the monarchy the family could have applied to the king to allow her husband to take on her name. Today it's a republic. But on marrying Charlie Noname, the princess decides to ask for Prince/princess of Thisandthat as family name. Charlie accepts but wants to keep his own name. So the couple is Anette princess of ThisandThat and Charles Noname. But their first child will be prince/princess of Thisandthat and, together with his/her siblings, carry on the familyname of prince/princess of Thisandthat into new millenia.
So the idea that a family name gets lost because of only female descendents is a problem with cultural traditions and family laws of different countries. It's not a general problem of mankind. Traditions can change if the people living decide to change their views and laws.
Furienna said:Changing dynasties isn't the end of the world or even much of a problem. It's just that if a male can carry the dynasty further, he should be able to do it. And QEII's children and grandchildren aren't Windsors, they're Windsor-Mountbattens. (The queen's husband's real name is, of course, Philip Mountbatten.) I have a feeling Charles and his sons see themselves as Windsors though. However, while Queen Victoria was of the Hannover dynasty, her children were of the Sachsen-Gotha dynasty, because her husband was Prince Albert of Sachsen-Gotha. The Sachsen-Gothas of UK changed their name to Windsor during the first world war, so that they would seem more Brittish than German.
Lillia said:King Henry the XIII went absolutely mad over this same kind of issue and look at all the problems he created over his 'must have a male' stance. In the end, a very capable daughter ended up succeeding him anyway (actually both daughters held the role of monarch). Just my opinion.
Lillia said:ok. I have to say though humbly, that I did not read anywhere that anyone was advocating that a male offspring would not be able to 'carry the dynasty further'.
The issue seemed to get around somehow to gender of the firstborn offspring. If the child would be a girl, fine. A boy, fine. That imo would be a point about birth order of any children to the emporer or Crown Prince.
If the Emporer or Crown Princely couple has all girl children, no problem. If he has girls first, then boys, birth order determines next-in-line, not gender. If the emporer or Crown Prince had all girls and his other relatives had boys, good for them.
The emporer's own natural children or the the children from the Crown Princely couple would the next-in-line in accordance to birth order, gender has nothing to do with it.
IMO, as long as the children are healthy, it should never be a problem to have girls next to inherit (and not after a younger brother), especially if they are the natural children of the reigning emporer or crown princely couple, the girl would be just as entitled as the boy, imo. But it is a subject for the Japanese to settle for themselves.
King Henry the XIII went absolutely mad over this same kind of issue and look at all the problems he created over his 'must have a male' stance. In the end, a very capable daughter ended up succeeding him anyway (actually both daughters held the role of monarch). Just my opinion.
Furienna said:...If Aiko became empress, her children would still be the first of a new dynasty. If there was no prince to carry the dynasty further, they would have no choice, but now, they have Hisahito, who's able to do that. However, they should allow princesses to be heirs, so Japan doesn't have another crown princess, who gets totally destroyed by pressure of giving birth to a son, like it was with Masako. If there's no prince, well, too bad, but as long as there's a princess, the sucession is still safe. But if there is a prince, let him ascend the thrown before a princess.
Lillia said:ok. I have to say though humbly, that I did not read anywhere that anyone was advocating that a male offspring would not be able to 'carry the dynasty further'.
The issue seemed to get around somehow to gender of the firstborn offspring. If the child would be a girl, fine. A boy, fine. That imo would be a point about birth order of any children to the emporer or Crown Prince.
the emporer or Crown Prince had all girls and his other relatives had boys,
If the Emporer or Crown Princely couple has all girl children, no problem. If he has girls first, then boys, birth order determines next-in-line, not gender. If good for them.
The emporer's own natural children or the the children from the Crown Princely couple would the next-in-line in accordance to birth order, gender has nothing to do with it.
IMO, as long as the children are healthy, it should never be a problem to have girls next to inherit (and not after a younger brother), especially if they are the natural children of the reigning emporer or crown princely couple, the girl would be just as entitled as the boy, imo. But it is a subject for the Japanese to settle for themselves.
King Henry the XIII went absolutely mad over this same kind of issue and look at all the problems he created over his 'must have a male' stance. In the end, a very capable daughter ended up succeeding him anyway (actually both daughters held the role of monarch). Just my opinion.
Emily said:In a different circumstance, the United States is supposed to be so liberated about males and females and yet we just can't elect a female president -- "society" isn't ready for it and some of the most vocal opponents to a female president are women.
Toledo said:. I believe I mentioned this someplace else that if Aiko is crowned empress and marries a commoner she does not lose her status. But is she marries a commoner while being a princess, she could end up expelled from the imperial family like her aunt.