State Funeral of HM Queen Elizabeth II: 19 September 2022

[FigTree]

With the BRF for a minute, why were the Mike Tindalls on the front row of the senior royals seating while Harry, who is after all the new King’s son, and his wife, were exiled to the second row? It’s not as if either Mike or Zara are working royals, which would explain it.

They seemed nominally to go by age. Until the second row when they separated Beatrice and Eugenie so Eugenie could sit with mother.

It's hardly exile children in front row and then three oldest grandchildren. George and Charlotte had to be with their parents really.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It appears that the grandchildren, like the children are seated according to age and nothing else hence Peter and Zara in the front row as they are the eldest two, William as PoW would always be in the front row but he is also the third born grandchild. Then Harry as 4th born with Beatrice and Eugenie - 5th and 6th born.

 

[Sunnystar]

With the BRF for a minute, why were the Mike Tindalls on the front row of the senior royals seating while Harry, who is after all the new King’s son, and his wife, were exiled to the second row? It’s not as if either Mike or Zara are working royals, which would explain it.

No idea. My only thought was that it put Harry & Meghan immediately behind Charles & Camilla, which would be more prominent than on the very end of the front row next to the Wales family.

Peter was also in the front row, between Charlotte & the Tindalls.

ETA - the explanations from Fig Tree and Iluvbertie make the most sense!

 

[crm2317]

Did anyone notice Beatrice slipping out with her mother as the funeral was coming to an end?

 

[FigTree]

Did anyone notice Beatrice slipping out with her mother as the funeral was coming to an end?

No Beatrice and Eugenie did. I presume so they could walk together in procession their husbands also walked together.

 

[principessa]

These are pictures I won't forget. So emotional and historic. I am so in tears.

 

[FigTree]

Poor Duke of Gloucester doing this walk. Isn't he nearly 80? All his grandchildren there today too which was nice.

Wonder if Philips and Tindell girls will be in Windsor.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The Duke of Gloucester is 78.

He, like his cousin, the Duke of Kent, is a determined old man.

The Duke of Kent couldn't make it that far but he did it many years ago - as a 16 year old with his Uncles Henry and David and behind Philip as they did the walk from Westminster Hall to Paddington Station.

The Duke of Gloucester and his older brother were deemed too young but he is clearly determined to do his bit for his cousin Lilibet. He was, of course, one of the pages at her coronation, along with Prince Michael who was also a page at her wedding with Prince William of Gloucester.

When the Archbishop talked about the Queen giving her allegiance to God before accepting the allegiance of those in the Abbey my thoughts immediately when to The Duke of Kent who is the only one of those who swore allegiance that day still alive.

 

[Ilse]

No Duchess of Kent?

 

[Iluvbertie]

No Duchess of Kent?

No. She hasn't been at any event this year and this is the third one I thought she might have made.

She is a devout Christian so it does suggest she isn't well enough to go to any church service.

 

[Mbruno]

The only rationale I can think of for having Beatrix, Maxima & W-A in the front row is that Beatrix was a Queen Regnant, like HM The Queen.

Yes, I assume they used Beatrix's date of accession to seat the Dutch royals. But they didn't apply the same rules to the Spaniards; otherwise, Juan Carlos and the Spanish delegation should be seated next to the Danes and the Swedes and ahead of the Dutch.



King Philippe, who ascended before King Felipe VI, was also seated in the third row below the Spaniards. If they followed the order of seniority of the current monarchs, it should have been, I think: Margrethe, Carl Gustaf, Harald, Henri, Albert, Willem-Alexander, Philippe, Felipe, and Naruhito.



It looks like they got only Margrethe and Carl Gustaf right.

 

[Sunnystar]

Yes, I assume they used Beatrix's date of accession to seat the Dutch royals. But they didn't apply the same rules to the Spaniards; otherwise, Juan Carlos and the Spanish delegation should be seated next to the Danes and the Swedes and ahead of the Dutch.



King Philippe, who ascended before King Felipe VI, was also seated in the third row below the Spaniards. If they followed the order of seniority of the current monarchs, it should have been, I think: Margrethe, Carl Gustaf, Harald, Henri, Albert, Willem-Alexander, Philippe, Felipe, and Naruhito.



It looks like they got only Margrethe and Carl Gustaf right.

Were the Spaniards behind the Danes & Swedes? I know Harald & Sonia were immediately behind Beatrix & Maxima. I could see them switching the Dutch & Spaniards for a couple of reasons and using JC & Beatrix's dates of ascension to seat them ahead of Henri, Albert, Philippe & Naruhito. 1) Beatrix was also a Queen Regnant, and 2) JC's health & mobility issues would have made it easier for him to be in the second row & use the chair in front of him to lean on when necessary, much the same way Harald was doing at the end.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes, I assume they used Beatrix's date of accession to seat the Dutch royals. But they didn't apply the same rules to the Spaniards; otherwise, Juan Carlos and the Spanish delegation should be seated next to the Danes and the Swedes and ahead of the Dutch.



King Philippe, who ascended before King Felipe VI, was also seated in the third row below the Spaniards. If they followed the order of seniority of the current monarchs, it should have been, I think: Margrethe, Carl Gustaf, Harald, Henri, Albert, Willem-Alexander, Philippe, Felipe, and Naruhito.



It looks like they got only Margrethe and Carl Gustaf right.

Let us assume it was a diplomatic compromise between the Dutch (with a reigning King with more anciennity and a former Queen with less anciennity) and the Spanish (with a reigning King with less anciennity and a former King with more anciennity).

 

[FigTree]

Yes, I assume they used Beatrix's date of accession to seat the Dutch royals. But they didn't apply the same rules to the Spaniards; otherwise, Juan Carlos and the Spanish delegation should be seated next to the Danes and the Swedes and ahead of the Dutch.



King Philippe, who ascended before King Felipe VI, was also seated in the third row below the Spaniards. If they followed the order of seniority of the current monarchs, it should have been, I think: Margrethe, Carl Gustaf, Harald, Henri, Albert, Willem-Alexander, Philippe, Felipe, and Naruhito.



It looks like they got only Margrethe and Carl Gustaf right.

They looked like they sat them depending on who are mates. I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

They looked like they sat them depending on who are mates. I wouldn't read too much into it.

That's not how you seat heads of state at a state funeral though

And I'd say QMII and Harald are better "mates" than QMII and CG so that theory doesn't hold either.

 

[RoyalHighness 2002]

Did anyone notice Beatrice slipping out with her mother as the funeral was coming to an end?

It seems like they went to the back so they could curtsey to the coffin as it was leaving. They also got in the procession of cars which is an interesting shift from them arriving in the buses earlier on.

 

[camelot23ca]

Baring in mind this is the first of three services he has to speak at today, he may have the emphasis in each on something different.

I thought it was fine. I’m sure the late Queen had some ideas about what she wanted emphasized, so I’m not surprised the remarks focused heavily on service. I liked that he mentioned the promise she made as such a young woman, and how well she fulfilled that promise over the next 70 plus years.

 

[Mbruno]

Were the Spaniards behind the Danes & Swedes? I know Harald & Sonia were immediately behind Beatrix & Maxima. I could see them switching the Dutch & Spaniards for a couple of reasons and using JC & Beatrix's dates of ascension to seat them ahead of Henri, Albert, Philippe & Naruhito. 1) Beatrix was also a Queen Regnant, and 2) JC's health & mobility issues would have made it easier for him to be in the second row & use the chair in front of him to lean on when necessary, much the same way Harald was doing at the end.

Yes, the Spaniards were behind the Danes and the Swedes, so technichally they were ahead of the Norwegians, I think, assuming the precedence is observed from right to left. That may be because of the precedence accorded to King Juan Carlos.


In the third row, Philippe was ahead of Henri (from right to left; he was the only monarch in uniform without a UK order, so easy to spot), but that may be because Philippe is a king and Henri is a grand duke? But, in that case, shouldn't Naruhito have been moved forward too despite his date of accession?

 

[Sister Morphine]

My dad had CNN on to watch the funeral, but I had to turn it off when their so-called "royal correspondent" said that the "Charles R" on the card in the wreath of flowers on QEII's coffin stood for "Charles Regent."

No, it's "Charles Rex." I'm an American, and I know this. You're British. Why don't you?

 

[sarahedwards2]

Strange to hear God Save the King for the first time in my lifetime! It will take some getting used to.

 

[FigTree]

That's not how you seat heads of state at a state funeral though

And I'd say QMII and Harald are better "mates" than QMII and CG so that theory doesn't hold either.

I thought Swedish and Danish royal were close? K

Anyway some people are little bit grander then the people themselves.

You don't let a divorced daughter in law sit in the second row either but they did.

Go with it. There was also the fact of fitting people a certain amount of people in rows. Hence B amd E were separated.

 

[Mbruno]

Very touching and emotional to see those low-ranked members of the Household (pages, maids, etc.) standing outside Buckingham Palace. We focus often on the Lord Chamberlain, the Ladies in Waiting, etc. and forget all those people who served the late Queen.

 

[Sunnystar]

Yes, the Spaniards were behind the Danes and the Swedes, so technichally they were ahead of the Norwegians, I think, assuming the precedence is observed from right to left. That may be because of the precedence accorded to King Juan Carlos.


In the third row, Philippe was ahead of Henri (from right to left. ; he was the only monarch in uniform without a UK order, so easy to spot), but that may be because Philippe is a king and Henri is a grand duke? But, in that case, shouldn't Naruhito have been moved forward too despite his date of accession?

Yes, Philippe would be ahead of Henri because King > Grand Duke.

I think the European royalty were seated ahead of the Asian and Middle Eastern royalty. Looking at the pics of how they entered the Abbey, the Bhutanese were immediately behind Naruhito & Masako, and behind them were various Middle Eastern sheikhs.

 

[FigTree]

It seems like they went to the back so they could curtsey to the coffin as it was leaving. They also got in the procession of cars which is an interesting shift from them arriving in the buses earlier on.

It was about getting in the cars then. Yeah they both obviously moved for a place in the line.

 

[Mbruno]

Yes, Philippe would be ahead of Henri because King > Grand Duke.

I think the European royalty were seated ahead of the Asian and Middle Eastern royalty. Looking at the pics of how they entered the Abbey, the Bhutanese were immediately behind Naruhito & Masako, and behind them were various Middle Eastern sheikhs.

Yes, that makes sense. The European royals were probably given precedence over the Asian ones because they are all also cousins of the late Queen.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

There is a logic in the seating:

Margrethe II (1972) and Frederik
Carl Gustaf XVI (1973) and Silvia
Beatrix (1980) but because her son is reigning King she sat after
Willem-Alexander (2013) and Máxima
Juan Carlos (1975) and Sofía but because their son is regining King they sat after
Felipe VI (2014) and Letizia
Harald V (1991) and Sonja
Henri (2000) and María Teresa
Philippe (2013) and Mathilde

 

[Sister Morphine]

Does it really matter how people were seated? I doubt any of them took offense to what chair they got to sit in. It's a funeral.

 

[Minister of Court]

Does it really matter how people were seated? I doubt any of them took offense to what chair they got to sit in. It's a funeral.

Amen to that. I was just glad they gave the European royal houses precedence.

 

[moby]

Does it really matter how people were seated? I doubt any of them took offense to what chair they got to sit in. It's a funeral.

We’re in a royalty forum. Pardon me, but protocol absolutely matters. Protocol, however, is not inflexible and can follow certain logic based on many circumstances.

 

[tommy100]

May also have been to do with getting everyone on the row - Beatrix and WA and Maxima is 3, Felipe, Letizia, JC and Sofia is 4. Could simply have been a numbers game. I like the fact that Margrethe and Beatrix were on the front row as Elizabeth IIs contemporaries - all 3 European Queen Regnants together. I do think sometimes we do place too much emphasis on protocol, I think sometimes it is more of a guide than an set of absolute rules.

I read in a few places the European Royals may be attending the service in Windsor so sitting them all together, ahead of other monarchs who might not be, may also have helped with logistics.