"Spare" memoir by the Duke of Sussex (2023)

[Hallo girl]

I vehemently oppose any retroactive stripping of titles as it just seems to be a mechanism in response to poor planning on the part of the monarch. They should concern themselves with looking towards the future and not attempt to change the past.

Everyone knows that it has been Charles' wish all along that the monarchy become slimmed down, so he needs to be the one to wield the hatchet on titles going forward and not pan it off on William. If it is his intention to deprive Harry's children of the Prince/Princess title, then he needs to man up and do it out in the open. They have not been known as such yet, so the loss will be minimal to them in the long run. Leaving the matter up in the air like this only legitimizes H&M's claims that it's something that is racially based if no other explanation is offered by BP.

Between here and the Danish forum, I feel like I've become the patron saint of second sons and their children's titles. I hate to see these monarchs endanger their relationships with their grandchildren by dealing with their titles in ham-handed manners.

The problem is that Meghan inferred it was race/skin colour related.
This put Charles in a difficult position, he maybe was considering slimming down the use of titles but once Meghan put her twopenny in he is in a no win situation, She is blackmailing him into giving the children the titles.
He will be accused of racism if he does not confer the titles.

She plays quite the game does Meghan, watches her words then says not me. Very good at inferring or leading you down the road and not correcting you when you take the wrong turn, then can honestly say but I didnt say that.

 

[chelly]

Would it work if Charles said only the kids and grandkids of the Monarch can have titles. Right now he is probably thinking "i got 100 other important things to deal with "

 

[FigTree]

Would it work if Charles saids titles to only the Children and Grand children of the MOnarch. That would save him and William from any backlash. By the time Williams kids have kids they probably won't care all that much.

That's the current rule through the men. Except it isn't because of Edwards kids.

 

[FigTree]

The problem is that Meghan inferred it was race/skin colour related.
This put Charles in a difficult position, he maybe was considering slimming down the use of titles but once Meghan put her twopenny in he is in a no win situation, She is blackmailing him into giving the children the titles.
He will be accused of racism if he does not confer the titles.

She plays quite the game does Meghan, watches her words then says not me. Very good at inferring or leading you down the road and not correcting you when you take the wrong turn, then can honestly say but I didnt say that.

Well doesn't matter now. It was never racist. Hi ho everyone can get on with their life.

 

[wonderland31]

I don’t think he’ll ever issue the LP. Usually their LPs are “from now forward”, not affecting those who are already HRH. Like it happened with the succesion law, Princess Anne didn’t change place in the LoS, it started with George.
Now, if not for the thorny subject of the children’s race (I hope I’m not offending), I believe The Queen would have already issued an LP to say HRH is limited to the direct line: monarch’s children, heir’s children, heir’s firstborn’s children. Were it Cressida instead of Meghan, I have no doubt HLM would have done it before any pregnancy announcement.
For Charles to do it now it would mean either to say “from now forward” and implicitly confirm Archie and Lili are HRH, or to strip them. And in all fairness he should also strip Bea, Eugenie, the Kents and the Gloucesters. So he’ll leave it for William when the time comes.

Years ago forum member MarleneKoenig (Royal Musings) made this post regarding the titles of the Wessex Children and I believe she has more recent explanations, perhaps on her blog or other social media. As I recall, there need not be letters patent, just will of the Monarch; the language used in the Wessex announcement did that.

11-18-2013, 01:20 PM
MarleneKoenig

Nobility

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA, United States
Posts: 391


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen
Age has nothing to do with her being royal. Lady Louise will be royal all her life, whether she chooses to use the title Princess might be up to her when she turns 18.

According to the 1917 Letters patent, children of the Sovereign and grandchildren of the sovereign in the male line are HRH Prince or Princess, as well as the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales. The Queen issued a new LP to give the HRH and title of Prince or princess to the children of the Duke of Cambridge. (All would have been upgraded automatically when Charles became king.)

At the time of the marriage, and reiterated when Louise was born, it was announced that Edward's children would be styled as children of an earl. Louise and James are technically royal, but not styled as such. It is not a choice. At age 18, Louise will not be able to say hey, I want to use the HRH and title Princess. Not going to happen. This was a decision made by the Queen and the Wessexes. Eventually, the children will have the title and rank of a duke's children ... after the death of the Duke of Edinburgh and the succession of Charles III - will Charles be able to create a new Duke of Edinburgh title for Edward. If the Duke dies before the queen, Charles succeeds according to the 1947 LP. Philip's male heirs. It will be a new creation for Edward.

​

 

[Lee-Z]

..

She plays quite the game does Meghan, watches her words then says not me. Very good at inferring or leading you down the road and not correcting you when you take the wrong turn, then can honestly say but I didnt say that.

This.

Maybe that's why Harry doesn't understand it when his brother tells him he loves him. He is used to words that are being said not being what is said (there, i made a word-salad too )

 

[Sunnystar]

Well doesn't matter now. It was never racist. Hi ho everyone can get on with their life.

Good point! Now that Harry's gone on record to say "oh, no, we didn't call them racist, that's not my family at all..." Charles can choose to issue that LP restricting the HRHs to whomever he wants. He could make the updated LP applicable to his descendants.

Of course, everyone would, probably correctly, interpret it as retaliation for this despicable little memoir of Harry's, but at this point I'm not sure most people wouldn't say he has it coming.

 

[kimebear]

The problem is that Meghan inferred it was race/skin colour related.
This put Charles in a difficult position, he maybe was considering slimming down the use of titles but once Meghan put her twopenny in he is in a no win situation, She is blackmailing him into giving the children the titles.
He will be accused of racism if he does not confer the titles.

She plays quite the game does Meghan, watches her words then says not me. Very good at inferring or leading you down the road and not correcting you when you take the wrong turn, then can honestly say but I didnt say that.

I don't entirely disagree with this. But the fact remains that Archie and Lilibet were born during HLM's reign and no LP were issued by her depriving them of their Prince/Princess titles at the time of their births.

However, a reasonable argument could be made that Harry and Meghan already don't use the titles their children carry by courtesy in the first place, so LP that revoke the Prince/Princess titles for them and any future children of non-heirs shouldn't be controversial.

 

[Curbside]

What evidence is there that the discussions and the considerations were around race or skin colour as Meghan inferred.

None, other than their word. And I suppose, the fact that the titles haven't been updated on the official web site. I wonder if there are discussions about this matter behind the scenes.

 

[Hallo girl]

I don't entirely disagree with this. But the fact remains that Archie and Lilibet were born during HLM's reign and no LP were issued by her depriving them of their Prince/Princess titles at the time of their births.

However, a reasonable argument could be made that Harry and Meghan already don't use the titles their children carry by courtesy in the first place, so LP that revoke the Prince/Princess titles for them and any future children of non-heirs shouldn't be controversial.

Not sure if I have fully understood your point, they were not entitled to the titles at birth, it was only when Charles became King that as grand children of the monarch people expected them to have the titles.
Are you suggesting that HLM should have issued LP to change it for the future, rather than leave it for Charles to do retrospectively. If so I wouldn't disagree with that.
On the other hand , I now think that is what was going on before Archies birth, but Meghan decided it was all to do with skin colour and everybody held back.

 

[Erin9]

"Spare" memoir by the Duke of Sussex (2023)

That's what I think too. It's wrong of Harry to relay the conversation and a dirty trick by the press to recreate it as a real image of the texts. Catherine must be steaming.

I THINK Harry quoted parts of the text conversation in the book.

Don’t think it’s an image. But it would seem he’s quoting at least parts of the real conversation. What I read is very specific.

 

[COESpiral]

You know, I never really liked Harry, but I didn't hate him. He just seemed like a spoiled kid who became a spoiled man and did questionable things at times but acted like he was really serious about things that interested him, like Invictus and military work. Meghan was a complete question mark for me as I never watched Suits so I felt glad that they'd found each other and that she was up for being a part of the intense glare of the royal spotlight. The wedding seemed sweet and I was happy for them.

Needless to say, those feelings are gone. What a pair of grifters and narcissists.

I'd like to hoof Harold square in his frostbitten nether-regions. I really didn't need to know that bit of knowledge. Nor where he lost his virginity, or how hateful he could be to some poor disabled woman, or how nothing is never, ever, EVER his or Meghan's fault. Those two poor, put-upon, discriminated, angels of mercy who deigned to repair a thousand-year-old institution out of the goodness of their hearts? Where are their halos? They aren't Catholic, but could Pope Francis bypass that pesky rule and elevate them straight to sainthood?

I get it--life in the royal family is no walk in the park and yes, there are parts of that life that are in desperate need of change. I know I could never endure having my every facial twitch, clothing choice, or innocuous comment dissected a thousand-fold for tabloid fodder. Look at someone wrong, and suddenly you're the villain in everyone's eyes. I don't blame Harry for wanting to get out.

What I DO blame him for is his scorched earth policy of "I'm hurt so I'm dragging you all to hell with me". What, exactly, is that going to accomplish?? The list of people who he feels has betrayed him or offended him or hurt him is longer than his sad book at this point. How can he say he's in a happier place and at peace when he is CLEARLY still tilting at windmills?

I don't even know how you help him at this point. He says he's going to therapy, but as his therapist(s) still have him believing the whole world hates him except Meghan, what kind of intervention would drive the point home? I think Charles will always find some way to keep the door open to Harry but as for William--I think the bridge has been blown up and the earth salted. It didn't have to be this way.

 

[Prinsara]

One of the new King's priorities should be getting his own house in order because the upheaval just reflects poorly on everything else, and let's not pretend that the 'no titles because of racism' cloud hanging over BP doesn't taint the start of Charles' reign when a simple clarification could rectify it.

What is your desired solution to get the house in order, exactly? Give the children titles in a situation that will smack of appeasement and that their parents will likely find a way to somehow exploit?

Deny the children titles and have their parents turn it into yet another global media stick to beat the British monarchy with?

The current method of the Palace seems to be rather effective. It's also noteworthy that of all the Sussex complaints, since Oprah, neither of them has mentioned the titles at all. Clearly it's something Harry and Meghan are not eager to raise, even though they bring up being hard-done by about everything else.

 

[MissJanet]

i just read what Harry had to say about Camilla. I'm sorry for my english, but I'm furious and I'll have to vent.


You don't have to like or respect Camilla, but if anyone had a harder start in the RF than Meghan, that would be her. Worse press, worse reputation, worse public image. And that close to the age of retirement.

So while Harry hates how people treated Meghan, he attacks Camilla, the easiest target, in the same way she was attacked. The woman who makes his "Pa" happy, who actually understood and used the system to her advantage, who does all the official work and rarely makes a mistake.

And if she leaked things to the press.... I know Harry killed 25 soldiers, stole his wife's laughing gas while she was having his baby, took drugs and once wore an N+zi uniform - not because of Camilla but because of himself, he has no right to blame others for "leaks" when he's gushing the information out.

Yes, I'm leaving out the racist ascpect here, because as a white person, i'm privileged to not have to go through the hardship that POC have to deal with, I don't experience the full force, nor the nuances of racism.

I'm sorry, rant over.

 

[Hallo girl]

None, other than their word. And I suppose, the fact that the titles haven't been updated on the official web site. I wonder if there are discussions about this matter behind the scenes.

Thank you Curbside I appreciate that, I have followed the royal family for many years, I genuinely believe that Charles has considered for some time about reducing the number of working royals/ titles.

IMO he has been trying to think of the future and how difficult it is for members of the family other than the direct heirs to establish careers if they want to go out side the Firm. Having Prince or Duke before your name does open doors but also encourages accusations of favouritism / cronyism/ using your position for personal gain. Any type of business career can be very difficult.

I also believe that the discussions that Meghan talked about in the Oprah interview about Archies title, had nothing to do with skin colour but the actions Charles was considering to reduce the working elements of the family. Also to allow his grandchildren to have a freer more open life. Once Meghan claimed the discussions were around skin colour it opened a can of worms.
Meghan said it herself the first child born of mixed race, but would not have a title.

I also believe, only my opinion, that you are right the discussions probably are still going on.

EDIT I should have said prince/ princess as well.

 

[kimebear]

Not sure if I have fully understood your point, they were not entitled to the titles at birth, it was only when Charles became King that as grand children of the monarch people expected them to have the titles.
Are you suggesting that HLM should have issued LP to change it for the future, rather than leave it for Charles to do retrospectively. If so I wouldn't disagree with that.
On the other hand , I now think that is what was going on before Archies birth, but Meghan decided it was all to do with skin colour and everybody held back.

No they were not entitled to Prince/Princess at birth, which is why it would have been better to issue the LP then instead of waiting for this mess to spiral if the intention was to slim down the monarchy.

I don't agree with the idea of a 'slimmed down monarchy' in the first place, because at some point the royal families are going to slim themselves down into complete irrelevance at this rate. It's smart and prudent to limit the number of royals that take a salary from public money, but if you are going to forgo all the pomp and circumstance of having a royal family, (the weddings and charities and tiara occasions/state visits) just elect a president and be done with it.

By Charles now issuing LP on titles going forward, it can be made clear that it will also apply to future children of Louis, so that would show that the changes are not racially motivated. It's sad that it needs to be pointed out, but apparently it does.

 

[Ista]

Royal family lawyers have apparently asked for U.S broadcaster to hand over tapes of a Prince Harry interview, from The Telegraph:

https://archive.ph/UUx2s

A legal firm acting for Buckingham Palace contacted ABC while the Duke’s Good Morning America interview was on air, saying it needed to consider exactly what was said and “the context in which it appears” in order to have the opportunity to respond.

 

[FigTree]

Royal family lawyers have apparently asked for U.S broadcaster to hand over tapes of a Prince Harry interview, from The Telegraph:

https://archive.ph/UUx2s

Could be to do it the children. I mean legal issues over protection of minors are immense.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

...

Keeping the Sussex children untitled just seems to be an indicator that Charles' view of a 'slimmed down monarchy' includes his own grandchildren, and I can't say I would blame Harry for being upset about that. But I also think Charles is taking the coward's way out by not issuing the LP making it official.

I don't think the King is being cowardly, I think the Queen died only five months ago and we are still in the mourning period. He created William and the Prince of Wales to reflect his new status. Any other decisions, including the Sussex children's titles, can wait until the coronation. There is no emergency here. As Harry said "what difference does it make?"

 

[Curbside]

Thank you Curbside I appreciate that, I have followed the royal family for many years, I genuinely believe that Charles has considered for some time about reducing the number of working royals/ titles.

IMO he has been trying to think of the future and how difficult it is for members of the family other than the direct heirs to establish careers if they want to go out side the Firm. Having Prince or Duke before your name does open doors but also encourages accusations of favouritism / cronyism/ using your position for personal gain. Any type of business career can be very difficult.

I also believe that the discussions that Meghan talked about in the Oprah interview about Archies title, had nothing to do with skin colour but the actions Charles was considering to reduce the working elements of the family. Also to allow his grandchildren to have a freer more open life. Once Meghan claimed the discussions were around skin colour it opened a can of worms.
Meghan said it herself the first child born of mixed race, but would not have a title.

I also believe, only my opinion, that you are right the discussions probably are still going on.

EDIT I should have said prince/ princess as well.

I think it's quite possible that the discussion about titles and skin color might have been separate conversations.

 

[Alison H]

Amongst the things he told Tom Bradby were the exact words which his father used to tell him that Diana had died. How can he claim he objects to intrusions into his privacy and then detail such a private moment?

Now he's said that Diana would be heartbroken at the rift between him and William. And whose fault's that?!

 

[FigTree]

I think it's quite possible that the discussion about titles and skin color might have been separate conversations.

According to Meghan they were going on at the same time but that was shot down during Oprah when Harry contradicted her.

Harry’s children have a much better chance of a happy life with out the titles.

 

[Curbside]

I don't think the King is being cowardly, I think the Queen died only five months ago and we are still in the mourning period. He created William and the Prince of Wales to reflect his new status. Any other decisions, including the Sussex children's titles, can wait until the coronation. There is no emergency here. As Harry said "what difference does it make?"

I was sort of guessing that they might wait until the coronation to update the web site. They had to update the site right away for William and Kate, I think because there are actual management/financial responsibilities that go with the title.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I THINK Harry quoted parts of the text conversation in the book.

Don’t think it’s an image. But it would seem he’s quoting at least parts of the real conversation. What I read is very specific.

It's Harry's version of a specific conversation. What I found interesting is that he mentioned that Meghan was also dealing with her father talking to the media. I wonder if Harry has considered whether it is possible that Meghan was sitting on the floor crying about her father not being at the wedding rather than Catherine's text?

 

[Prinsara]

In a slightly lighter vein. Harry, the book's epigraph, and the awkward racial difficulties his unconscious bias or 15 subsequent minutes on Google missed: https://archive.ph/34lD6

It's even funnier when you think that he is indeed full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

[Hallo girl]

I think it's quite possible that the discussion about titles and skin color might have been separate conversations.

Possibly and not actually connected as Meghan inferred, but at the end of the day this is all our opinions, I doubt if we will ever know the facts as to be honest Harry and Meghan are inclined to move the goal posts and the palace refuses to comment.

 

[Sunnystar]

In a slightly lighter vein. Harry, the book's epigraph, and the awkward racial difficulties his unconscious bias or 15 subsequent minutes on Google missed: https://archive.ph/34lD6

It's even funnier when you think that he is indeed full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Lololol. I learned something new! As I'm sure his magical, resplendent has as well...

 

[Moran]

Possibly and not actually connected as Meghan inferred, but at the end of the day this is all our opinions, I doubt if we will ever know the facts as to be honest Harry and Meghan are inclined to move the goal posts and the palace refuses to comment.

Yeah, objective truth has no room arguing her truth.

The real issue here, though, isn't if there was racism, it's that Meghan strongly inferred that there was, Harry didn't contradict her, the media had a field day with the "royal racist", Harry worded the issue in a way to exonerate his grandparents from racism and only now, two years later, claims that there was no racism and Meghan never said there was. Silence is a betrayal but never when it's their silence, I suppose. Silence decorated with a fight against royal racism award. And a speech reinforcing the existence of royal racism. Harry didn't contradict that either.

I fail to see how the lack of racism makes Meghan innocent. She stood by and let people be crucified in the press over something she strongly hinted. She inferred an untruth so she doesn't get to benefit from the truth.

But as we see, they want to benefit from the Commonwealth, Empire No2 as well. No entitledness from those two can surprise me anymore.

 

[Curbside]

It's Harry's version of a specific conversation. What I found interesting is that he mentioned that Meghan was also dealing with her father talking to the media. I wonder if Harry has considered whether it is possible that Meghan was sitting on the floor crying about her father not being at the wedding rather than Catherine's text?

I get the impression that it was both. I know when I was going through something similar with my SIL, I could not believe I was having an argument/discussion over the flower girl dress. I planned my own wedding and I couldn't understand why my SIL wanted to argue about the dress her daughter would wear. I finally had to tell her that I wasn't going to argue about it anymore.

Catherine is an extremely put-together, regal figure, and I imagine she must have seemed intimidating to Meghan (I know I'd be intimidated).

 

[FigTree]

Harry just wants all the good stuff about being royal without any of the responsibility. I’d have more respect if he just said that.