Scottish Independence And The Windsors

[NGalitzine]

Alex does seem to get quite flustered and blustery when questions about the economics of an independent Scotland are put to him.

 

[James VI]

" Fluster and Bluster " ? I would`nt be too surprised if Mr Salmond had a pair of Westies with those names. I think it is the economic question which is undermining the whole case for independence. I would like to believe that people were drawing away from seperation from a sense of loyalty to the Crown and there is some polling evidence to back this up. Support for "British" institutions: the Queen, the army, the BBC etc, is on the rise in Scotland, but ultimately the fear of what might happen in the economic sphere, post-independence, will ultimately decide the issue. Incidently, my theory that Mr Salmond will attempt to delay the referendum is quite widely shared. It would be extremely damaging politically (though far worse if he lost the vote) but the SNP would stand by him as party leader for the very simple reason that without Mr Salmond, the SNP is nothing.

 

[agogo]

It is not a question of "if" but "when" Scottis Indpendence will happen.

 

[James VI]

You are entitled to your opinion, though of course as an outsider you do not have a vote on the matter and therefor, i fail to see the relevance of your opinion.....

 

[NGalitzine]

Its either a case of Alex Salmond saying one thing to appease the public in order to win a referendum vote or it is a case of the SNP not being able to agree amongst themselves what an independent Scotland would like like, at least in as far as the monarchy is concerned.

Queen 'may not remain monarch of an independent Scotland' - Telegraph

 

[RoyalistRiley]

You are entitled to your opinion, though of course as an outsider you do not have a vote on the matter and therefor, i fail to see the relevance of your opinion.....

I really don't think comments like this are in the spirit of TRF.

 

[Jacknch]

I don't wish to "dumb-down" this thread, as the question of Scotland becoming independent is a very serious one. My question though is to do with the Union Flag. Will the Union Flag have to be redesigned? I love the flag because of it's colours and the jack design and on-line I have seen a picture of the flag without the blue background and saltire, which frankly I don't like.
Sorry if this is off-topic.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Obviously if Scotland leaves the UK then the flag of Scotland would have to be removed from the Union flag.

 

[EIIR]

There's absolutely no requirement for the Scottish element of the Union Flag to be removed. When the Republic of Ireland left the Union, the cross of St. Patrick was left in. I know Northern Ireland remains in the Union, but the cross of St.Patrick is representative of Ireland as a whole and in the new Republic some Irish lawmakers debated asking the British government to remove it from the Union Flag but decided not to.

In much the same way the harp of Ireland remains within the coat of arms of the sovereign, even though it is used by the Irish Republic as their national symbol.

The Union Flag is enough of an icon on its own that I can't see the blue being removed. We could just say the blue represents the sea which surrounds our islands or something. The rest of us Brits love it as it is and I'd bet my house that it stays as it is. Plus it would be enormously expensive.

 

[RoyalistRiley]

I don't wish to "dumb-down" this thread, as the question of Scotland becoming independent is a very serious one. My question though is to do with the Union Flag. Will the Union Flag have to be redesigned? I love the flag because of it's colours and the jack design and on-line I have seen a picture of the flag without the blue background and saltire, which frankly I don't like.
Sorry if this is off-topic.

I also think that this is a very serious matter. I know here in Australia this question has been raised as the Union Jack is a large part of our flag. In this context I would keep it as is as I believe it represents Australia's history, but I can't imagine a world without the Union Flag proper flying over a nation. And what on earth would a United Kingdom of England, Northern Ireland and Wales flag look like?

I have also read that Scottish independence may have constitutional implications for Australia and other realms - Scottish Independence 'Could See The Queen Lose Sovereignty Over Australia' - as there would no longer be a "Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" as specified in some constitutions.

Personally, I cannot imagine Scotland leaving the Union and a very good Scottish friend of mine doubts it will happen as Scotland enjoys a huge number of financial benefits that people elsewhere in the UK don't receive and would probably lose if independence was gained. He thinks its the SNP playing politics, which I think is very dangerous.

 

[EIIR]

The problem is Scots think they subsidise the English (with 'their' oil) and the English think they subsidise the Scots (thanks to the Barnett formula).

I feel I can say this as a Northern Irishwoman with Scottish ancestry; to me the issue of Scottish independence comes down to an enormous inferiority complex on the part of the Scots. England is much bigger than them, more influential, more successful in the arts (singers, actors, literature) and that annoys some Scots. They dislike the fact that the BBC has more English presenters and newsreaders that Scottish ones; but that's simply because the vast majority of people in the UK are English.

The SNP play into that by trying to 'out-Scottish' all the other parties. Saying you want Scotland to remain in the Union is translated by the SNP as saying you think Scotland can't succeed on their own; you're 'doing down Scotland'. That's why the campaign to maintain the Union needs to be a positive one; instead of saying Scotland can't make it alone, we need to reinforce the many and varied benefits and advantages to Scots of retaining the link with the rest of the UK.

 

[Cory]

The Duke Franz of Bavaria is the Catholic Heir to the Throne of Scotland.

 

[RoyalistRiley]

The problem is Scots think they subsidise the English (with 'their' oil) and the English think they subsidise the Scots (thanks to the Barnett formula).

The SNP play into that by trying to 'out-Scottish' all the other parties. Saying you want Scotland to remain in the Union is translated by the SNP as saying you think Scotland can't succeed on their own; you're 'doing down Scotland'. That's why the campaign to maintain the Union needs to be a positive one; instead of saying Scotland can't make it alone, we need to reinforce the many and varied benefits and advantages to Scots of retaining the link with the rest of the UK.

That seems to be the feeling I get from living afar and talking to Scots. But we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

 

[Kataryn]

The Duke Franz of Bavaria is the Catholic Heir to the Throne of Scotland.

He is more than that if we only count relations: he is the senior line heir as the senior line was deposed in favour of the (senior) protestant line. But it is not clear if the English and Scottish princess he is descended of (Henrietta Ann) has not rightfully given up her rights to the Brtish thrones on her marriage. For if she had a son instead of only two daughters, this son would have been the Head of the Orleans-line of Bourbons, so very close to the French throne. I personally doubt the parliaments of England and Scotland would have accepted a marriage so close to the kingship of France without enforcing a forfeit of her inheritance rights (which was quite custumary at that time when princesses from houses who had a female inheritance possibility married).

So I'm not convinced at the moment that this isn't a reality.
Then we come to Elizabeth of Bohemia, daughter of James I./VI. If she forfeited her rights, too, then there is no other claimant than the currant queen (for her right goes back to an Act of parliament accepting her ancestoress Elizabteh' right to the succession for her descendants).
If we believe Elizabeth did never give up her claims, then her first son would have been her heir. He left two children from his first and official marriage: a childless son and a daughter who married the widower of her cousin Henrietta Ann and bore him a son. Thus the Head of the House of Orleans would be next. But the duchess of Orleans herself gave up her rights to her inheritance (which was revoked by France at a later moment, but still..) If her line is out, the children of the second marriage of the Prince-Elector might have a claim. This marriage was considered by German Law as a marriage to the left hand, so that the children could not inherit the Palatinate. - a fact which the British don't see. IMHO they could well have inherited a de jure right to the thrones of Scotland and England.

Then the line according to the British traditions of succession goes via Lady Frederica Schomburg to Charles Pelham, the 8th (and current) Earl of Yarborough. So why not ask him to become king of Scotland according to his senior descent from Elizabeth Stuart?

 

[RoyalistRiley]

I strongly doubt that the Duke would be under serious consideration for King of Scotland in the event of independence. He is even more foreign that the Windsor's supposedly are.

 

[Artemisia]

Personally, I cannot imagine Scotland leaving the Union and a very good Scottish friend of mine doubts it will happen as Scotland enjoys a huge number of financial benefits that people elsewhere in the UK don't receive and would probably lose if independence was gained. He thinks its the SNP playing politics, which I think is very dangerous.

Well, if the unthinkable were to happen and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ceased to exist, than the flag of the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland could look like this (provided, of course, that the Scottish blue is removed from the flag).

 

[Brazilian_Empress]

It is sad that there is no Stuart descendant with a better claim to Mary Queen of Scots and James VI. Crown (of which there are thousends: all Habsburgs, all Wittelsbach, lots and lots of other Royals) who are of Scottish (that is: at the moment of British nationality). So besides the Windsors there is no Royal claimant who has any ancient but still existing relationship to
Scotland.

Okay, there were the illegitimate sons of Charles II. Has there be any illegitimate buit legalized birth in Scotland's Royal House of the Stuarts which led to a successful claim to the throne?

Otherwise they could offer the Crown of Scotland to Harry.... That has happened in 1905 when Norway became independant of Sweden and they offered the Crown first to the second son of their former ruler and only when he declinded gave it to a Danish prince with Norwegian Royal ancestry and close links to the Bernadotte dynasty of Sweden).

Or the Jacobites.