Religion and the Danish Royal Family

[AdmirerUS]

Anyone here know why the catholich church doesn't pray for the queen?

This is off topic, but the US Catholic liturgy does not include prayer for our President either. Any part of the government can be included when there is good reason, times of trouble, etc. But it is not a regular practice.

 

[MidwestMom]

In the Episcopal Church, USA, the president is prayed for every week in the Prayers of the People. (I think they are called the 'bidding prayers' in the UK) There is also a petition to pray ''for those in authority.'' The non-liturgical churches have some leeway in their services, so they may also pray for the president.

 

[FasterB]

It is different in the Danish Lutheran Church. Communion takes place after the church service is over. So, when attending a danish church service, the majority of churchgoers leaves before communion. Only if you have got a very special and personal reason for participating in the communion you stay.

So, when members of the royal family leave church before communion, they are doing exactly what is in accordance with danish church tradition. This might (as some posters on this thread have written) seem rude when compared with other religions - but within the danish lutheran church it is simply the way things are done.

I just read the whole thread and had to react on this comment

It is downright wrong! The service in the Danish Lutheran Church is not over until it´s over and it´s not normal to leave the church before the service is over - and that is after the communion, a prayer for the week to come, the blessing, a hymn and the postludium. So about 10 minutes.

The reason why the Prince Consort is leaving is that he grew up and was raised catholic and as a headrule then catholics can´t share communion with protestants.

And I can imagine that in Århus Cathedral at Easter Mass there´s a lot of people and therefor the communion takes longer than normal. And, knowing the challenges with the health of the Prince Consort, it can be hard to sit on the churh benches, so it´s fully understandable that he leaves before the service is over. Then CP Frederik follows him, perhaps due to the space in the cars or just for the company

 

[TLLK]

This is off topic, but the US Catholic liturgy does not include prayer for our President either. Any part of the government can be included when there is good reason, times of trouble, etc. But it is not a regular practice.

AdmirerUS is correct. Typically there is a generalized intention for God to bless world and national leaders and to guide them to make just and compassionate decisions.

 

[Mbruno]

The reason why the Prince Consort is leaving is that he grew up and was raised catholic and as a headrule then catholics can´t share communion with protestants.

Didn't the Prince Consort convert to Lutheranism though after he got married ? I thought he did , but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[FasterB]

Hasn't the Prince Consort converted to Lutheranism though after he got married ? I thought he had , but maybe I'm wrong.

Well, he´s still raised as catholic And I´m not sure that he converted, CPss Mary didn´t, Countess Alexandra did. I´m not sure about Pss Marie either.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The palace announced in 2003 that Mary Donaldson would convert from Presbyterianism to Evangelical Lutheranism.

Miss Donaldson is a British and an Australian citizen and is currently a member of the Presbyterian church. She has agreed to become a member of the Evangelical-Lutheran church and to apply for Danish citizenship, thus relinquishing her British and Australian citizenship ties.

There was a similar announcement in 2007 concerning Marie Cavallier:

Miss Marie Cavallier is a French citizen and belongs to the Roman Catholic Church. It is her wish to become a member of the Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Denmark in connection with the marriage. Miss Cavallier also wishes to apply for Danish citizenship and in this way to be released from her French citizenship.

 

[FasterB]

The palace announced in 2003 that Mary Donaldson would convert from Presbyterianism to Evangelical Lutheranism.

I´m just quite sure that I have read that Bishop Erik Normann-Svendsen stated that CPss Mary didn´t convert. She did however received education about the Danish chruch and its tradtition.

 

[MidwestMom]

The Lutheran Church would have recognized her baptism and confirmation, so it was probably a matter of receiving some instruction, and acceptance into the Lutheran church. That being said, it bothers me when I read that ''Mary had to change her religion.'' She did not change her religion - Presbyterian and Lutheran are Christian faiths, but different denominations within that faith. She was a Christian and remains a Christian - she only changed her denomination. Peace.

 

[MARG]

I quite agree! Same train, different carriages.

 

[FasterB]

Yes, that´s the explanation. CPss Mary didn´t convert as then Pss Alexandra did. Pss Alexandra got confirmed before her wedding with Prince Joachim. I remember a photo of her in a light pink dress.

 

[Von Schlesian]

Regarding the Prince Consort and communion, I suspect HRH feels uncomfortable about receiving communion in a Protestant church, not necessarily because he believes the consecration to be invalid (although that is certainly how the Catechism instructs Catholics to view non-canonical communion), but rather that he is conscious that his own (or former) faith tradition precludes non-Catholics from receiving the sacrament of communion and it is therefore polite to decline the invitation to the Lord's table in other denominations.

Writing as a Roman Catholic, I have the same view. I have been made to feel extremely welcome at Church of England and Lutheran communion services and been invited to receive communion, but have instead opted for a blessing reflecting the Catholic requirement of non-Catholics attending Mass.

 

[FasterB]

And as a lutheran I know that catholics don´t share communion with protestants. So when I´m in a catholic church (or not sure whether it´s catholic or protestant) I just stay seated on the bench during communion in respect of the catholic believe

And I agree with you about the Prince Consort not receiving communion in a protestant church.

 

[Mbruno]

And as a lutheran I know that catholics don´t share communion with protestants. So when I´m in a catholic church (or not sure whether it´s catholic or protestant) I just stay seated on the bench during communion in respect of the catholic believe

And I agree with you about the Prince Consort not receiving communion in a protestant church.

Wikipedia lists Prince Henrik as a member of the Church of Denmark. In that case, there is no reason why he should not take communion in a Lutheran service.

 

[Von Schlesian]

Wikipedia lists Prince Henrik as a member of the Church of Denmark. In that case, there is no reason why he should not take communion in a Lutheran service.

It is only offered as an example of the Catholic viewpoint, which despite his public conversion, the Prince Consort may still profess privately. Once learned, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is quite difficult to abandon.

I am not for a moment suggesting that Prince Henrik's conversion was insincere, but if he is for any reason uncomfortable about receiving communion in a Lutheran church, his Catholic origins might have something to do with it.

 

[FasterB]

It is only offered as an example of the Catholic viewpoint, which despite his public conversion, the Prince Consort may still profess privately. Once learned, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is quite difficult to abandon.

I am not for a moment suggesting that Prince Henrik's conversion was insincere, but if he is for any reason uncomfortable about receiving communion in a Lutheran church, his Catholic origins might have something to do with it.

And I totally agree with you. And no one in Denmark finds it strange that he doesn´t take part in the communion.

 

[Von Schlesian]

And no one in Denmark finds it strange that he doesn´t take part in the communion.

Which is surely more important than our pontification on here!

 

[FasterB]

Which is surely more important than our pontification on here!

Yes

 

[sophie25]

Yes

I wonder if in old age he is drifting back to the religion he was raised in. I mean, is he really a Lutheran because he so wanted to be? A lot of conversions happen when you marry into a royal family because it's expected.There is no way all of these conversions can be sincere. If he'd married a fellow Catholic he'd probably have stayed as he was as would Marie I think as well. Perhaps as he nears the end of his life he is thinking more deeply about these things as most people do.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

Yes, that´s the explanation. CPss Mary didn´t convert as then Pss Alexandra did. Pss Alexandra got confirmed before her wedding with Prince Joachim. I remember a photo of her in a light pink dress.

Why then did the palace announce that Mary became a member of the Lutheran church?

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

The Lutheran Church would have recognized her baptism and confirmation, so it was probably a matter of receiving some instruction, and acceptance into the Lutheran church. That being said, it bothers me when I read that ''Mary had to change her religion.'' She did not change her religion - Presbyterian and Lutheran are Christian faiths, but different denominations within that faith. She was a Christian and remains a Christian - she only changed her denomination. Peace.

Do you feel the same way about formerly Catholic members of the Danish royal family? That they only changed their denomination? Just curious because you only mentioned someone who went from one Protestant denomination to another? And indeed huge deals have been made in royal families over conversions from and to Catholicism.

Prince Valdemar of Denmark (1858-1939) and his wife, the former Princess Marie d'Orléans(who remained Catholic after her marriage), raised their sons Lutheran and their daughter Catholic.

 

[MidwestMom]

You are correct when you say that huge deals have been made about Protestant/Catholic conversions. Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall was Catholic, but is now a member of the Anglican Church. I think it has something to do with allegiance to the Pope, who as head of the Vatican state, is considered a monarch of sorts. Just my opinion. I married into a family with several Roman Catholic members, so to me it's not such a big deal. I would not have objected to either of my sons becoming Catholic.

Prince Henrik's reasons for not receiving Communion are his own, but it seems to me that he always looks uncomfortable and even bored in church - as if he'd rather be somewhere else. His religious views, or lack of them, are not for us to dissect. (I couldn't find a 'peace' smiley, so this angel will have to do.) Peace.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Why then did the palace announce that Mary became a member of the Lutheran church?

I believe the other posters meant that although the Crown Princess became a member of the Lutheran Church of Denmark, the Church does not regard her as a "convert" because as a Presbyterian, it was not necessary for her to be re-confirmed.

 

[FasterB]

I wonder if in old age he is drifting back to the religion he was raised in. I mean, is he really a Lutheran because he so wanted to be? A lot of conversions happen when you marry into a royal family because it's expected.There is no way all of these conversions can be sincere. If he'd married a fellow Catholic he'd probably have stayed as he was as would Marie I think as well. Perhaps as he nears the end of his life he is thinking more deeply about these things as most people do.

Well, the Prince Consort has always (=as far as I remember) leaved the church during communion. So we cannot put it all under "old age". I think we can put it part under "raised catholic" and part under "booooooord when in church". But one thing I notice is that he stays in church during the sermon

Why then did the palace announce that Mary became a member of the Lutheran church?

I believe the other posters meant that although the Crown Princess became a member of the Lutheran Church of Denmark, the Church does not regard her as a "convert" because as a Presbyterian, it was not necessary for her to be re-confirmed.

Exactly, Tatiana Maria

 

[CyrilVladisla]

I believe the other posters meant that although the Crown Princess became a member of the Lutheran Church of Denmark, the Church does not regard her as a "convert" because as a Presbyterian, it was not necessary for her to be re-confirmed.

Princess Mary was not re-confirmed. Did she have to be baptized in the Lutheran faith?

 

[Von Schlesian]

Princess Mary was not re-confirmed. Did she have to be baptized in the Lutheran faith?

Most major Christian denominations recognise any previous baptism as valid in the case of conversions. The Lutheran church would only require baptism for an unbaptised person and as has been stated here before, the Crown Princess was a member of the Presbyterian Church in Australia (and therefore had been baptised already).

 

[FasterB]

Most major Christian denominations recognise any previous baptism as valid in the case of conversions. The Lutheran church would only require baptism for an unbaptised person and as has been stated here before, the Crown Princess was a member of the Presbyterian Church in Australia (and therefore had been baptised already).

Precisely

 

[Iluvbertie]

You are correct when you say that huge deals have been made about Protestant/Catholic conversions. Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall was Catholic, but is now a member of the Anglican Church.

Camilla was never Roman Catholic. She was born, raised and always has been Anglican. Many people think or assume she was Roman Catholic because she and Andrew Parker-Bowles married in a Roman Catholic service but she never changed to Roman Catholicism but that was because he was RC. At the time that they married the RC church only recognised the couple as married if they married in an RC ceremony (my brother had to marry in an RC service so his wife could be regarded as married by her church. He is Anglican and our Anglican priest had no issue so long as he was able to participate in the service so he lead the Protestants in saying the Lord's Prayer while the RC priest lead the RC's present (and yes there is a difference between the two versions).

Camilla was baptised in the church at Firle in Sussex - an Anglican church.

Autumn Philips, on the other hand, very publicly changed from Roman Catholicism to Church of England before marrying Peter Philips so that he wasn't removed from the line of succession when they married (wouldn't matter now but would have done so then).

 

[FasterB]

... so he lead the Protestants in saying the Lord's Prayer while the RC priest lead the RC's present (and yes there is a difference between the two versions).

What is the difference? I ask only out of curiosity and because this area has my professional interest

 

[iceflower]

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Let us please stay on topic of this thread. In the context of this thread religion may only be discussed as far as it concerns the Danish Royal Family! Thank you for your understanding!