Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Warren]

Posts discussing Bourbon and Orléans royal titles have been moved to the Questions About Titles thread in the Other Things Royal forum.

 

[MRSJ]

This may seem like a stupid question but when Charles becomes King (or even when William does) could he take away the HRH of his bro and sisters and neices and nephew? Or would it automatically drop? Could William take HRH from Harry when he King?

 

[Iluvbertie]

This may seem like a stupid question but when Charles becomes King (or even when William does) could he take away the HRH of his bro and sisters and neices and nephew? Or would it automatically drop? Could William take HRH from Harry when he King?

Why would he want to take the HRH away?

It isn't automatic at all - the cousins of the Queen are HRH - HRH Prince Richard, The Duke of Gloucester, HRH Prince Edward The Duke of Kent, HRH Prince Michael of Kent, HRH Princess Alexandra. It hasn't happened in the past that those that close have lost the HRH.

Beatrice and Eugenie will be in the same relationship to William as these people - first cousins.

HRH is governed by the 1917 LPs and is for life (unless the holder chooses not to use it).

So who gets HRH?

1. The children of the monarch - Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward.

2. Male line grandchildren of a monarch - William and Harry of Wales (children of HRH The Prince Charles), Beatrice and Eugenie of York (children of HRH The Prince Andrew), Louise and James of Wessex (children of HRH The Prince Edward), Richard of Gloucester (child of HRH The Prince Henry - 3rd son of George V), Edward, Michael and Alexandra of Kent (children of HRH The Prince George - 4th son of George V).

3. The eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales - so William's eldest son but no other children of either William's or Harry's in the present reign but all once the Queen dies. That assumes that the Queen doesn't issue special LPs to grant the HRH to all their children, which is possible.

When Charles becomes King William's other children and all of Harry's children will gain the HRH but no one will lose it. They may choose to give it up but to lose it Charles will have to issue new LPs to restrict further the HRH.

How much further do you restrict - to simply the children of the monarch so that Harry's children don't get it and William's have to wait until William is King - possibly but I don't think that will happen.

If he was to take HRH from Beatrice and Eugenie and his siblings then to be fair he would have to deny it to Harry's children and Harry as well - he would be restricting it to the heir and the heir's heir. The Queen's own sibling, Margaret kept the HRH Princess all her life (which she originally got at birth, like her older sister, as they were male-line grandchildren of a monarch. Margaret couldn't pass on the HRH to her children as she was a female, so, like Peter and Zara, David Linley and Sarah Chatto are female line grandchildren of a monarch but don't have HRH for that very reason - females can't pass it on unless they are the monarch and males for one generation, unless, again they are the monarch.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Iluvbertie's right.

And since none of the daughters and granddaughters can pass the HRH to their children, it ends with them.. meaning: HRH The Princess Royal, HRH Princess Beatrice of York, HRH Princess Eugenie of York, The Lady Louise Windsor, and HRH Princess Alexandra.

It will also end with the male-line grandchildren of George V - HRH Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, and HRH Prince Michael of Kent. And with the male-line grandson of Elizabeth II - James, Viscount Severn. Their children are not eligible for the HRH because they would be great-grandchildren of a sovereign.

 

[branchg]

This may seem like a stupid question but when Charles becomes King (or even when William does) could he take away the HRH of his bro and sisters and neices and nephew? Or would it automatically drop? Could William take HRH from Harry when he King?

The rank, style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK is entirely within the will of The Sovereign and can be removed or granted at any time. At present, the 1917 Letters Patent of George V governs the use of this style, but successive monarchs have issued letters patent modifying these guidelines in specific situations.

In 1937, George VI issued letters patent stating The Duke of Windsor would continue to be entitled to the style and attribute of HRH, despite the Abdication, but such attribute could not be shared by his wife and children.

In 1996, Elizabeth II issued letters patent stating a former wife of a Prince of the UK would be not entitled to the style and attribute of HRH upon divorce.

It is entirely possible new letters patent will be issued by Charles or William when they become King limiting the style and attribute of HRH. While it is expected anyone currently holding it would retain it for life, it's not automatic this will be so.

 

[Royal Fan]

IId love if the Children of Prince Michael were made Prince and Princess

 

[Iluvbertie]

IId love if the Children of Prince Michael were made Prince and Princess

To make them a Prince or Princess then a lot more people would have to get that as the children of Prince Michael are male-line great-grandchildren - so the children of the Duke of Gloucester and Duke of Kent would also have to get it.

George V deliberately wanted to restrict it and there is no reason to add any more.

Any further changes would be to further restrict rather than widen I think - particularly when you consider that Louise and James aren't using the title.

I can see Charles limiting it to the children of the monarch and only the children of the heir to the throne (he is reported as wanted Beatrice and Eugenie to give it up and the only way that would be fair is it he then also denied it to his own second son's children).

 

[MRSJ]

The rank, style and attribute of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK is entirely within the will of The Sovereign...

Thank you!

Why would he want to take the HRH away? It isn't automatic at all...It hasn't happened in the past that those that close have lost the HRH.

Thank you - I'm not saying anyone would take it away just asking if they could- thanks!

 

[Marc23]

Queen would also be a Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duchess in Saxony, Princess of Greece and Denmark. Imagine: by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland and the British Dominions beyond the Seas Queen, Defender of the Faith, Princess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Duchess in Saxony, Princess of Greece and Denmark, Duchess of Edinburgh, Countess of Merioneth, Baroness Greenwich, Duke of Lancaster, Lord of Mann, Duke of Normandy...

With the title of Princess of Greece and denmark she would also be until 1972 [FONT=Times,Times New Roman]princess of Schleswig, Holstein, Stormarn, Dithmarschen, Lauenburg and Oldenburg...[/FONT]

 

[SweetHomeNC]

If Charles had died while he and Diana were still married what would her title have become?
I believe I read once that there are two title options she could have used [FONT=&quot]Her Royal Highness The Dowager Princess of Wales or Her Royal Highness Diana, Princess of Wales.
[/FONT]

 

[Iluvbertie]

If Charles had died while he and Diana were still married what would her title have become?
I believe I read once that there are two title options she could have used [FONT=&quot]Her Royal Highness The Dowager Princess of Wales or Her Royal Highness Diana, Princess of Wales.[/FONT]

Had Charles died while they were married she would have been HRH The Dowager Princess of Wales once someone else was given the title HRH The Princess of Wales but until then she would have remained simply as HRH The Princess of Wales.

The use of Diana wasn't a option as that applies to a divorced woman not a married one.

She would still have been wrongly called Princess Diana - as she was after the divorce.

 

[SweetHomeNC]

OK, back with another question. For the children of Princess Margaret, what exactly are their titles? I know their father is "The Rt Hon. The Earl of Snowdon".

 

[cmkrcwi]

Princess Margaret's son David is Viscount Linley. Her daughter is Lady Sarah Chatto.

 

[Kataryn]

Had Charles died while they were married she would have been HRH The Dowager Princess of Wales once someone else was given the title HRH The Princess of Wales but until then she would have remained simply as HRH The Princess of Wales.

The use of Diana wasn't a option as that applies to a divorced woman not a married one.

She would still have been wrongly called Princess Diana - as she was after the divorce.

Didn't that change? I seem to have heard that a lot of widows of the peerage prefer the title of First name, former title without the "The". And the Dowager title is only for the mother of the next holder of the title, not for a second wife?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Didn't that change? I seem to have heard that a lot of widows of the peerage prefer the title of First name, former title without the "The". And the Dowager title is only for the mother of the next holder of the title, not for a second wife?

First name, title without the The is the form of a divorced wife ala Diana, Princess of Wales, Sarah, Duchess of York.

The 'The' indicates that they are either the current wife of the titleholder of the widowed wife.

Dowager is for the wife of the titleholder, although normally that would be the mother of the next titleholder that is not necessarily the case. Dowager simply indicates the widow while there is another holding the title. If it was only for the mother of the next titleholder than there could be two people entitled to The Duchess of xxxx.

 

[SweetHomeNC]

Princess Margaret's son David is Viscount Linley. Her daughter is Lady Sarah Chatto.

I know that much, but I guess I was wondering what their style is... like "The Rt Hon." or "The Honorable".

 

[Iluvbertie]

I know that much, but I guess I was wondering what their style is... like "The Rt Hon." or "The Honorable".

Neither.

David is Viscount Linley or Lord Linley - Lord as the son of an earl which is higher than Honourable or Rt Honourable. Viscount Linley as Viscount is the second title of the Earl of Snowdon.

His children are Honourable as there is no third title for the Snowdon title for young Charles to use. When David becomes The Earl Snowdon then Charles will become Viscount Linley.

 

[Lenora]

The changements made by George V

As I've understood George V applied such a royal law in order not to be many princes.For example,the title of Prince Michael of Kent is not hereditary.My question is:could the future kings(Charles or William) change this preview?

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Neither.

David is Viscount Linley or Lord Linley - Lord as the son of an earl which is higher than Honourable or Rt Honourable. Viscount Linley as Viscount is the second title of the Earl of Snowdon.

His children are Honourable as there is no third title for the Snowdon title for young Charles to use. When David becomes The Earl Snowdon then Charles will become Viscount Linley.

When David inherits the title from his father, he will become The Right Honourable The Earl of Snowdon.

Dukes are The Most Noble The Duke of..
The eldest son and heir of a duke is given one of his father's lesser titles as a courtesy; his younger sons and all his daughters are given the title Lord or Lady, followed by their first and last names.

Marquesses are The Most Honourable The Marquess of..
Same as for dukes.

Earls, Viscounts and Barons are The Right Honourable The Earl of.. The Right Honourable The Viscount.. The Right Honourable The Baron (or The Lord)..
The eldest son and heir of an earl or viscount is given one of his father's lesser titles as a courtesy, if one exists; his younger sons are given the title The Honourable. Daughters of earls are given the title Lady, while daughters of viscounts and all the children of barons are given the title The Honourable.

Likewise, there are others who may hold the honorific of The Right Honourable.. these include all members of the Privy Council of the United Kingdom and the Privy Council of Northern Ireland, and the Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom, Canada and New Zealand. The appointment of Australians to the Privy Council was abolished in 1986, so the Prime Minister of Australia does not hold the honorific.

However, these honorifics are usually only applied when addressing envelopes and on official documents.. they are not in general usage when addressing people in person, either formally or informally.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

As I've understood George V applied such a royal law in order not to be many princes.For example,the title of Prince Michael of Kent is not hereditary.My question is:could the future kings(Charles or William) change this preview?

Technically I suppose they could.. but this a very remote possibility and is unlikely to ever happen. I don't think the British people or the Commonwealth would take kindly to an expansion of the royal family..

 

[Sam20045]

When Beatrice and Eugenie marry will they gain titles such as HRH Princess Eugenie, Duchess/Countess of ..... and then the husband would take a title.....and be HRH. If they did that then the husbands would seem higher than there wives.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Only if the husband was given a title, such as Anthony Armstrong-Jones received the title Earl of Snowdon when he married HRH The Princess Margaret. That meant that their children received the titles of Viscount Linley and Lady Sarah Armstrong-Jones but not the HRH. The name "Lady" is the courtesy title of the daughter of an Earl. Husbands who marry princess of the British Royal Family don't become Royal Highnesses, although women marrying British princes do...as any woman takes her husband's style under English common law. HRH The Princess Anne married Capt. Mark Phillips and was known as HRH The Princess Anne Mrs. Mark Phillips. Now of course she's known as HRH The Princess Royal.

When Beatrice and Eugenie marry will they gain titles such as HRH Princess Eugenie, Duchess/Countess of ..... and then the husband would take a title.....and be HRH. If they did that then the husbands would seem higher than there wives.

 

[Zonk]

I don't think this will happen.

I can see Beatrice becoming HRH Princess Beatrice of York, Mrs. David Clark....similiar to her aunt's title during her first marriage. The only way she will become a Duchess, Lady or whatever is if she marries someone who currently holds a title.

I can't see the Queen, or Charles or William giving any husband of Zara, Beatrice, Eugenie or Louise an additional title.

 

[Lumutqueen]

When Beatrice and Eugenie marry will they gain titles such as HRH Princess Eugenie, Duchess/Countess of ..... and then the husband would take a title.....and be HRH. If they did that then the husbands would seem higher than there wives.

They won't get any additional titles, and it is unlikely that the husbands of the yorks will recieve their own titles aka Duke or Earl of whereever.

 

[Iluvbertie]

When Beatrice and Eugenie marry will they gain titles such as HRH Princess Eugenie, Duchess/Countess of ..... and then the husband would take a title.....and be HRH. If they did that then the husbands would seem higher than there wives.

No they won't gain any titles - unless tragedy has struck the family and Beatrice is the heiress apparent - e.g. Charles, William, Harry and Andrew are all dead leaving no one to come between Beatrice and the throne. In that case I would expect the husband to get a Dukedom like Philip did but as long as they are simply male-line granddaughters of the monarch no - just like Princess Alexandra's husband wasn't given a title when they married.

 

[Zonk]

But in regards to Princess Alexandra of Kent, the Queen offered to title Angus Olgivy and the couple said no.

In the case of Beatrice, Eugenie or even Louise I don't think it will be an option.

 

[MRSJ]

But in regards to Princess Alexandra of Kent, the Queen offered to title Angus Olgivy and the couple said no.

In the case of Beatrice, Eugenie or even Louise I don't think it will be an option.

Should their husbands be offered and accept a title then they'd take thier husbands title, yes? Othewise would their title be like Princess Alexandra.... i.e. Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Smith .....

 

[Zonk]

Yes, that is correct.

Princess Alexandra of Kent, was HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent, Mrs. Angus Olgivy when she married, and he was granted a title (became a Knight Commander of the Victorian Order in 1988) and became Sir Angus Olgivy than she became HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent, Lady Olgivy. And his title didn't pass on to their son, James.

It should noted that the couple married in 1963 and he didn't get his title until 25 years later based on the support he provided to Princess Alexandra doing her duties and his charity events.

If Princess Beatrice married David Clark she would be HRH Princess Beatrice of York, Mrs. David Clark.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Should their husbands be offered and accept a title then they'd take thier husbands title, yes? Othewise would their title be like Princess Alexandra.... i.e. Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Smith .....

If that were the case - for example Princess Beatrice marries and her husband is offered an earldom, which he accepts - then upon marriage she would become HRH Princess Beatrice, Countess of X. He would not gain an HRH, but would be The Earl of X.

The same would be true for Princess Eugenie, but in the case of Lady Louise she would just become The Countess of X, as she is not styled HRH.

Of course, this is all hypothetical because I seriously doubt any of the husbands of the royal granddaughters will be offered titles.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Yes, I agree. Any sort of peerage would only be in their own right such as Angus Ogilvy's.

Of course, this is all hypothetical because I seriously doubt any of the husbands of the royal granddaughters will be offered titles.