Princess Elisabeth, Duchess of Brabant Jewels


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An Ard Ri said:
Thankfully this is not the case.
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This is not the case for this tiara, at least!
I’m still schocked none of the past queens thought about leaving their tiara to the future Queen. If Ragnild did it, I am very let down by Belgian queens.
 
JGio said:
This is not the case for this tiara, at least!
I’m still schocked none of the past queens thought about leaving their tiara to the future Queen. If Ragnild did it, I am very let down by Belgian queens.
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That is not so strange:

Astrid died prematurely,

Lilian - her estate went to her children (Belgian royals, who partially sold items)

Marie-José - her estate went to her children (Italian royals, who partially sold items)

Joséphine-Charlotte - her estate went to her children (Luxembourg royals, who partially sold items)

Fabiola had no any children and her estate went to caritas,

Paola is still alive.
 
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Duc_et_Pair said:
That is not so strange:

Astrid died prematurely,

Lilian - her estate went to her children (Belgian royals, who partially sold items)

Marie-José - her estate went to her children (Italian royals, who partially sold items)

Joséphine-Charlotte - her estate went to her children (Luxembourg royals, who partially sold items)

Fabiola had no any children and her estate went to caritas,

Paola is still alive.
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The problem was that nobody in Belgium ever considered creating a foundation to keep the jewels within the direct line. Instead they have all been considered a private property (with the exclusion of the Nine Provinces Tiara which is passed from Queen to Queen).
Had a foundation existed, Lilian wouldn't have been able to sell her jewels (IMO it was distasteful that she wore some of the jewels belonging to her husband's late wife, but that's another story).

I really hope Philippe will establish a foundation in the future, to prevent loosing pieces to collateral branches.
 
To be fair I think jewels foundation is a pretty rare and new idea for most RF, especially before the time Lilian came to the scene, IIRC only the Netherlands and Sweden had built such systems, I think Denmark has too but not applied to most jewels. I could be wrong but part of Norwegian jewels, especially those used by older generation, are privately owned personal property too, yet unlike their cousin Belgium, they are lucky that no one sold the major jewels and the members are willing to give it back to the main branch (Astrid and Ragnhild). Lilian is an extreme and unfortunate situation for Belgium.

Though I agree the Belgians (and other RF) shall build a foundation to protect and manage their jewels.
 
JGio said:
This is not the case for this tiara, at least!
I’m still schocked none of the past queens thought about leaving their tiara to the future Queen. If Ragnild did it, I am very let down by Belgian queens.
Click to expand...

Queen Elisabeth left her most substantial tiara (the Cartier diamond tiara) to her son, but Princess Lilian sold it after he died. Her secondary tiara (the Art Deco bandeau) was passed to Queen Astrid and later gifted to a collateral branch of the family as Prince Albert was not expected to become king. Queen Paola actually appears to be following the same pattern, i.e. leaving the main tiara (the Nine Provinces) with the main line and probably passing on the Art Deco to Princess Astrid's family (considering that Astrid wore it once at a state dinner and her daughter-in-law wore it at her wedding to Prince Amedeo).

Queen Fabiola had 3 tiaras at her disposal. The main one, again the Nine Provinces (inherited from Queen Astrid) was passed to the next queen consort (Queen Paola). The Wolfers convertible necklace was gifted to Mathilde, who also inherited other pieces from Queen Fabiola like the waterfall diamond brooch, the pearl and diamond earrings, or her ruby and diamond bracelet. Nobody knows what happened to the Spanish wedding gift tiara. If it was left to charity, I don't know what they would do with it, but it doesn't appear to have been sold or auctioned. Maybe the tiara was dismantled, or maybe Fabiola's Spanish family has it. At this point, my hopes that Queen Mathilde might have gotten it too have faded.

In addition, many of the family jewels left Belgium with Queen Marie-José (including the gorgeous Fabergé tiara, which was later sold by Marie-José's daughter) and with Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte.
 
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Marchesina said:
The problem was that nobody in Belgium ever considered creating a foundation to keep the jewels within the direct line. Instead they have all been considered a private property (with the exclusion of the Nine Provinces Tiara which is passed from Queen to Queen).
Had a foundation existed, Lilian wouldn't have been able to sell her jewels (IMO it was distasteful that she wore some of the jewels belonging to her husband's late wife, but that's another story).

I really hope Philippe will establish a foundation in the future, to prevent loosing pieces to collateral branches.
Click to expand...


Most royals wear items which have belonged to a whole series of deceased persons. That is the essence of inheritance.

And all that talk about "Foundations" is maybe a bit too easy: after the death of King Leopold, Princess Lilian was left in cash-strapped circumstances and had to scrape money to maintain her (relatively modest) lifestyle.

A "Foundation" is only possible when royals are wealthy enough to abstain from inheritance. Wen Queen Juliana placed all her jewels, but also artworks, inventories of palaces, carriages, name it, into the ownership of a Family Foundation, she factually "denied" her 4 daughters a private fortune. She only could do this because her daughters would be more than wealthy enough not to miss a diamond parure here or an artwork by Rubens there.

Not all royal families are in these circumstances. Would the Gloucesters place their fabulous jewels in a Foundation, their children are denied a private fortune on their own, so to say.
 
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Mbruno said:
Nobody knows what happened to the Spanish wedding gift tiara. If it was left to charity, I don't know what they would do with it, but it doesn't appear to have been sold or auctioned. Maybe the tiara was dismantled, or maybe Fabiola's Spanish family has it.
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I think that I read either on this board or another royal jewels board that someone contacted Fabiola's family after her death and that they said that they didn't inherit the Spanish gift tiara...

I also wonder where the tiara could have finished and why there is no word about it...
 
:previous:

Angry relatives spoke to the Spanish press about it. Mostly about the artworks from the Mora family that they expected to come back to their family. But it has become quiet after that so perhaps things have been settled in silence.
 
Marc23 said:
I think that I read either on this board or another royal jewels board that someone contacted Fabiola's family after her death and that they said that they didn't inherit the Spanish gift tiara...

I also wonder where the tiara could have finished and why there is no word about it...
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There also several other Jewels of Fabiola who haven't been seen. Her diamond sautoir, her aquamarine drops and she also had necklace of several rows of pearls.
 
W.Y.CII said:
I could be wrong but part of Norwegian jewels, especially those used by older generation, are privately owned personal property too, yet unlike their cousin Belgium, they are lucky that no one sold the major jewels and the members are willing to give it back to the main branch (Astrid and Ragnhild).
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In the NRF all the major jewels that come from queen Maud and Cp Martha belong to the King, and his sisters got to borrow it for life, they had to give them back.

Then they have some private jewels which they have gotten other places, like the circle tiara princess Ragnhild got from her godmother princess Ingeborg. That this tiara is back in the main branch of the family is due to luck and a sense of history with the Lorentzen family.

Very good news that Elizabeth now has her own tiara, its a substantial piece, but not worn to full effect yet, she needs a few more practices and maybe open it up a bit more
 
Annine said:
In the NRF all the major jewels that come from queen Maud and Cp Martha belong to the King, and his sisters got to borrow it for life, they had to give them back.

Then they have some private jewels which they have gotten other places, like the circle tiara princess Ragnhild got from her godmother princess Ingeborg. That this tiara is back in the main branch of the family is due to luck and a sense of history with the Lorentzen family.

Very good news that Elizabeth now has her own tiara, its a substantial piece, but not worn to full effect yet, she needs a few more practices and maybe open it up a bit more
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It was handy that the Lorentzen family has a great fortune and are able to hand over a diamonds-and-pearls diadem. But -for an example- Princess Lilian of Belgium's daughter Princess Marie-Christine was in urgent financial need. No way that she could have abstained from her share in her mother's inheritance.


So the establishment of a Family Foundation is very dependent on the possibility to say: "I deny my children their private fortune, they are more than wealthy enough, instead I donate it all to a Family Foundation".
 
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Marchesina said:
I really hope Philippe will establish a foundation in the future, to prevent loosing pieces to collateral branches.
Click to expand...

Yes I do too as they Belgian's have lost almost the entire jewel collection through poor management.

Hopefully by the time Elisabeth becomes queen the jewel chest will have improved.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
It was handy that the Lorentzen family has a great fortune and are able to hand over a diamonds-and-pearls diadem. But -for an example- Princess Lilian of Belgium's daughter Princess Marie-Christine was is urgent financial need. No way that she could have abstained from her share in her mother's inheritance.


So the establishment of a Family Foundation is very dependent on the possibility to say: "I deny my children their private fortune, they are more than wealthy enough, instead I donate it all to a Family Foundation".
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Very fair point.

I also think the need for a foundation or Trust can be avaoided if the jewels remain in the ownership of the monarch, who lends tem as appropriate. This is very much the system used by QE2. Some may argue that she does not share her jewels enough, but that is a personal choice she has made. she has ensured that all the ladies who are working members of The Firm have enough to be suitably bejewelled, as befitting their status.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
Most royals wear items which have belonged to a whole series of deceased persons. That is the essence of inheritance.

And all that talk about "Foundations" is maybe a bit too easy: after the death of King Leopold, Princess Lilian was left in cash-strapped circumstances and had to scrape money to maintain her (relatively modest) lifestyle.

A "Foundation" is only possible when royals are wealthy enough to abstain from inheritance. Wen Queen Juliana placed all her jewels, but also artworks, inventories of palaces, carriages, name it, into the ownership of a Family Foundation, she factually "denied" her 4 daughters a private fortune. She only could do this because her daughters would be more than wealthy enough not to miss a diamond parure here or an artwork by Rubens there.

Not all royal families are in these circumstances. Would the Gloucesters place their fabulous jewels in a Foundation, their children are denied a private fortune on their own, so to say.
Click to expand...


As other have explained to, Foundations are a relatively new concept and so I understand now that in the past there was a different attitude towards jewellery and its significance. I also understand the "difficult" situation of collateral branches, but at the same time I wasn't talking about collateral branches but about the main line which, nowadays, should try and keep their collection of jewels intact, especially nowadays when "spares" are most likely to build a career of their own and they don't need inheritances to survive, like in the past.

It is also true though that we don't know what would have happened to, let's say for argument' sake, to the Cartier Bandeau if it had gone to Baudouin instead of Leopold....probably sold and money given to charity (as I assume that's what happened to the Spanish Gift Tiara), as Fabiola didn't have daughters of her own.

but now enough with the OT :flowers: (to the mods, feel free to remove the post)
 
As a sidenote: Pss Lilian's sister Lydia Baels was married to Jean-Jacques Cartier, who headed the London department of the business. I suppose his contacts may have made the sale of the Cartier tiara easier for the princess at the time as it could be done discreetly and among family.
 
muriel said:
Very fair point.

I also think the need for a foundation or Trust can be avaoided if the jewels remain in the ownership of the monarch, who lends tem as appropriate. This is very much the system used by QE2. Some may argue that she does not share her jewels enough, but that is a personal choice she has made. she has ensured that all the ladies who are working members of The Firm have enough to be suitably bejewelled, as befitting their status.
Click to expand...

I actually think the British royals should have a foundation as historic jewels belonging to Mary the Princess Royal have already been sold as have Queen Mary's sapphire tiara by the Duke of Kent and I fear more will be lost on the death of the Duke of Gloucester, Prince Michael and Princess Alexandra.
 
Right Cartier bought Princess Lilian 's tiara , the former Queen Elisabeth tiara when she sold it when King Leopold III passed away. It was from a noble family but a jewel specialist saw it and talk abut. She was very angry .
Queen Elisabeth should have given her tiara to King Baudouin.
When rincess Lilian passed away Princess Marie Christine was such in a money need that they had to sell all the furniture , paintings etc.... Her Children never received jewels.
 
sophie25 said:
I actually think the British royals should have a foundation as historic jewels belonging to Mary the Princess Royal have already been sold as have Queen Mary's sapphire tiara by the Duke of Kent and I fear more will be lost on the death of the Duke of Gloucester, Prince Michael and Princess Alexandra.
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The sales and potential sales you refer to are as a result of bequests made by Queen Mary. Little can be done about jewellery that has been outside the main line of the BRF for some generations now. I am referring to the jewellery owned and controlled by QE2 now. She has been judicious in not allowing historically significant pieces leave the main line in the 70 years that she has been on the throne.
 
muriel said:
The sales and potential sales you refer to are as a result of bequests made by Queen Mary. Little can be done about jewellery that has been outside the main line of the BRF for some generations now. I am referring to the jewellery owned and controlled by QE2 now. She has been judicious in not allowing historically significant pieces leave the main line in the 70 years that she has been on the throne.
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We will see what happens after her death but it is most likely that she will leave everything to Charles to avoid inheritance taxes.

A similar Issue can also been seen in Denmark where Jewels from the Estate of the late Count Christian and Countess Anne-Dorte of Rosenborg were auctioned by their 3 daughters.
 
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Marchesina said:
As other have explained to, Foundations are a relatively new concept and so I understand now that in the past there was a different attitude towards jewellery and its significance. I also understand the "difficult" situation of collateral branches, but at the same time I wasn't talking about collateral branches but about the main line which, nowadays, should try and keep their collection of jewels intact, especially nowadays when "spares" are most likely to build a career of their own and they don't need inheritances to survive, like in the past.



It is also true though that we don't know what would have happened to, let's say for argument' sake, to the Cartier Bandeau if it had gone to Baudouin instead of Leopold....probably sold and money given to charity (as I assume that's what happened to the Spanish Gift Tiara), as Fabiola didn't have daughters of her own.



but now enough with the OT :flowers: (to the mods, feel free to remove the post)
Click to expand...
Before the foundations some royal families created entails to protect their properties. The Swedish Bernadotte family foundation was first created as an entail by King Carl XIV Johan (1763-1844) and transformed into a foundation by King Oscar II (1829-1907). This unfortunately didn't stop many of the family's most important jewelry from leaving the country since they were personal property.
In Denmark the Swedish born Queen Lovisa was instrumental in creating an entail of furniture, jewelry and other movables in 1910 to protect her very large inheritance and the significantly smaller of her husband's from being dispersed. In spite of this her large wealth allowed her to leave many grand pieces of jewelry to her many daughters and daughters-in-law.
 
I think with her appearance today, we can safely conclude that she is an earring girl. Nice fish.
 
Prinsara said:
I think with her appearance today, we can safely conclude that she is an earring girl. Nice fish.
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Yeah. I really liked the fish too. It’s a fun piece of jewelry and still looked really nice.
 
Prinsara said:
I think with her appearance today, we can safely conclude that she is an earring girl. Nice fish.
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Hopefully the duchess will have a decent jewel chest by the time she becomes queen,unlike her mother and grandmother.
 
Stefan said:
We will see what happens after her death but it is most likely that she will leave everything to Charles to avoid inheritance taxes.
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I think to know, that the Queen of England pays Income Tax, but the "Death Tax" too? Really?
 
victor1319 said:
I think to know, that the Queen of England pays Income Tax, but the "Death Tax" too? Really?
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So far the british Monarch is excempted from inheritance taxe and this was the reason that the Queen Mother left everything to her daughter to avoid inheritance taxes which wold have to be paid by Prince Charles etc.
 
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