Princely Houses of Sayn-Wittgenstein 1: Ending 2023

[iceflower]

On November 25 Sunnyi Melles attended a charity exhibition in support of "Light into the Dark" in Salzburg, Austria, and performed a reading during the event:


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[iceflower]

Yesterday, November 30, Lilly attended the Bulgari KaDeWe Boutique Opening at KaDeWe in Berlin:


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[iceflower]

Lilly celebrated Christmas within the big family circle and shared a number of photos:


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[iceflower]

Lilly attended the Marc Cain Fashion Show Fall/Winter 2023 in Berlin yesterday, January 18:


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[iceflower]

August-Frederik Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg attended the ARD Blue Hour 2023 on the occasion of the 73rd Berlinale International Film Festival at the Museum for Communication in Berlin on February 17:


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[iceflower]

Lilly attended the Spa Awards in Going, Austria, on March 25:


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[Blog Real]

Prince Casimir zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn and Alana Bunte have announced that they have become parents again with the arrival into the world of a boy they have named George.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cq6NPVfoEjq/

https://www.vanitatis.elconfidencia...-ex-corinna-padre-segundo-hijo-alana_3609380/

 

[iceflower]

Katharina zu Sayn-Wittgenstein attended the reception for the 20th Anniversary Gala for the Auction House Dorotheum in Duesseldorf, Germany on April 25:


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[Tatiana Maria]

Courtesy of ricarda, Kataryn and Elizaveta, here are the links to the court decisions regarding the 1943 last will and estate of Fürst Gustav Albrecht of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg (1907-1945):


Decision of the Agricultural Court of Bad Berleburg (8 April 2019): https://openjur.de/u/2340698.html

Part of the decision of the Regional Appeals Court in Hamm (27 July 2020): https://viewer.content-select.com/p...5074efaf5cc104c2b4cb6&frontend=1&language=deu

(The second link quotes the section of the court ruling in which the court gives its judgment and discussing the reasons for the decision.)

What was quite unusual in this will was that the grandfather didn't leave his estate to his son (Prince Richard), but only named him as a pre-heir, kind of a custodian-for-life. The will was only to be finally executed after the death of the pre-heir, at which point the estate would be inherited by the final heir (Prince Gustav). Since this execution of the will has now happened, it (like other wills) has no further bearing on the future.

Prince Richard slipped for tax reasons.

I will repost the clarification from the other thread since it also pertains here.


Prince Richard was not bypassed for the ownership of the estate, having fulfilled all applicable requirements. The 2020 court decision (see link above) notes that in 1970 and 1971, he was certified by the Bad Berleburg probate court as having succeeded his late father.

From the 2020 judgment:

Am 31. 12. 1970 erteilte das AG Bad Berleburg dem ältesten Sohn des Erblassers, [...] (künftig: Vorerbe), einen Erbschein, der diesen als Vorerben des Erblassers auswies. Dieser Erbschein wurde in der Folge wegen einer unvollständigen Bezeichnung der potentiellen Nacherben berichtigt und dem Vorerben am 10. 8. 1971 ein berichtigter Erbschein erteilt.


There is no maximum number or number of generations of pre- and post-heirs who may be imposed by a will. In this case, Prince Gustav Albrecht's 1943 testament stipulated that it would nominate as many consecutive heirs to his estate as the law would permit ("Ich bestimme so viel Nacherbfälle, als nach dem Gesetz jeweils möglich sind.")

However, there is a limit on the period of time before a will is executed and has no further influence. The relevant time limits are found in section 2109 of the Civil Code. Applied to this case, the will's execution was automatically triggered once thirty years had lapsed after Gustav Albrecht's death and his estate had passed to an heir who was not alive at the time of his death. (The court decisions contain more detailed explanations, but that is the essence.)

 

[iceflower]

Lilly attended the Karl Lagerfeld Met Gala After Party at The Mark Hotel in New York City yesterday, May 1:


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[Tatiana Maria]

Prince August-Frederik zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg married Mia Rohla at Pfarrkirche St. Nikolaus on 3 September in Wolfpassing near Vienna, Austria.

https://www.gettyimages.com/search/2/image?events=775864647

https://www.bild.de/unterhaltung/ro...aumhochzeit-mit-seiner-mia-81211148.bild.html

Among the guests many German Royals.

That is interesting news! August is a well known and successful television actor here in Germany and a quite handsome man.

Prince August and Prince Gustav (son of Princess Benedikte of Denmark and current head of the house) are second cousins. It was Prince August's father, Prince Ludwig Ferdinand, who challenged Prince Gustav's inheritance in court and argued that he himself should be heir because he was married to a noble woman, and would therefore meet the requirements of the will. No wonder we didn't see the current Fürst and Fürstin among the wedding guests...

Not only that, but the first judgment on the inheritance dispute states that Ludwig Ferdinand also applied for his second son (August) to be named as the next heir after himself. (The names are redacted from the published judgment, but the parties are easily identifiable using a family tree.)

What is interesting to me is that if Ludwig Ferdinand had won the dispute and inherited the Berleburg estate, his son August would have been in the same position as their cousin Gustav formerly was. In other words, August would have lost the inheritance, according to the stipulations in the late Prince Gustav Albrecht's will, if he married a commoner-born woman during the life of his father.

(To restate, there is a limit on the period of time before a will is executed and has no further influence. The relevant time limits are found in section 2109 of the Civil Code. Applied to this case, the will's execution was automatically triggered once thirty years had lapsed after Gustav Albrecht's death and his estate had passed to an heir who was not alive at the time of his death. (The court decisions contain more detailed explanations, but that is the essence.) Because Ludwig Ferdinand was born prior to Gustav Albrecht's death, the will would have remained effective until the estate passed to a younger heir.)

I assume Mia Rohla is not a noble by birth, so would this wedding in 2022 have happened if Ludwig Ferdinand had won the case in 2020, or would the couple have waited as Gustav did?

 

[Stefan]

Not only that, but the first judgment on the inheritance dispute states that Ludwig Ferdinand also applied for his second son (August) to be named as the next heir after himself. (The names are redacted from the published judgment, but the parties are easily identifiable using a family tree.)

What is interesting to me is that if Ludwig Ferdinand had won the dispute and inherited the Berleburg estate, his son August would have been in the same position as their cousin Gustav formerly was. In other words, August would have lost the inheritance, according to the stipulations in the late Prince Gustav Albrecht's will, if he married a commoner-born woman during the life of his father.

(To restate, there is a limit on the period of time before a will is executed and has no further influence. The relevant time limits are found in section 2109 of the Civil Code. Applied to this case, the will's execution was automatically triggered once thirty years had lapsed after Gustav Albrecht's death and his estate had passed to an heir who was not alive at the time of his death. (The court decisions contain more detailed explanations, but that is the essence.) Because Ludwig Ferdinand was born prior to Gustav Albrecht's death, the will would have remained effective until the estate passed to a younger heir.)

I assume Mia Rohla is not a noble by birth, so would this wedding in 2022 have happened if Ludwig Ferdinand had won the case in 2020, or would the couple have waited as Gustav did?

Wonder why he didn't want his older son as next heir, because Prince Carl-Albrecht is married to Baroness Schenk of Stauffenberg

 

[hereditarytitles]

Wonder why he didn't want his older son as next heir, because Prince Carl-Albrecht is married to Baroness Schenk of Stauffenberg

That is strange indeed. Concerning August, who is a well known actor in Germany I remember that in the beginning of his acting career most people didn't know that he was noble and belonged to the Sayn-Wittgenstein family. His name was just August Wittgenstein and he never talked about his family in public. I had the impression he almost didn't want that people knew about it. Maybe he was ashamed of his father about this court case that he obviously initiated just for monetary reasons?
I am sure August would have married the woman he loved regardless of any antiquated inheritance wills.

 

[Tilia C.]

Wonder why he didn't want his older son as next heir, because Prince Carl-Albrecht is married to Baroness Schenk of Stauffenberg

Wasn't Camilla Countess Schenk von Stauffenberg adopted by her maternal uncle because she was to inherit his estate? Her father was a commoner, while her mother was a Schenk von Stauffenberg. So, she was probably not good enough in Ludwig Ferdinand's eyes.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

That is strange indeed. Concerning August, who is a well known actor in Germany I remember that in the beginning of his acting career most people didn't know that he was noble and belonged to the Sayn-Wittgenstein family. His name was just August Wittgenstein and he never talked about his family in public. I had the impression he almost didn't want that people knew about it. Maybe he was ashamed of his father about this court case that he obviously initiated just for monetary reasons?
I am sure August would have married the woman he loved regardless of any antiquated inheritance wills.

I think it’s because he sometimes acts in Austria and no one uses nobiliary articles like “von” in Austria because of rules that abolished the monarchy and nobility in Austria. Plus I think August probably just wanted to use August Wittgenstein for more professional reasons.

Not only that, but the first judgment on the inheritance dispute states that Ludwig Ferdinand also applied for his second son (August) to be named as the next heir after himself. (The names are redacted from the published judgment, but the parties are easily identifiable using a family tree.)

What is interesting to me is that if Ludwig Ferdinand had won the dispute and inherited the Berleburg estate, his son August would have been in the same position as their cousin Gustav formerly was. In other words, August would have lost the inheritance, according to the stipulations in the late Prince Gustav Albrecht's will, if he married a commoner-born woman during the life of his father.

(To restate, there is a limit on the period of time before a will is executed and has no further influence. The relevant time limits are found in section 2109 of the Civil Code. Applied to this case, the will's execution was automatically triggered once thirty years had lapsed after Gustav Albrecht's death and his estate had passed to an heir who was not alive at the time of his death. (The court decisions contain more detailed explanations, but that is the essence.) Because Ludwig Ferdinand was born prior to Gustav Albrecht's death, the will would have remained effective until the estate passed to a younger heir.)

I assume Mia Rohla is not a noble by birth, so would this wedding in 2022 have happened if Ludwig Ferdinand had won the case in 2020, or would the couple have waited as Gustav did?

Yes Mia is not noble.

 

[Stefan]

Wasn't Camilla Countess Schenk von Stauffenberg adopted by her maternal uncle because she was to inherit his estate? Her father was a commoner, while her mother was a Schenk von Stauffenberg. So, she was probably not good enough in Ludwig Ferdinand's eyes.

Yes her mother is a Schenk von Stauffenberg. But wouldn't hat be better then a non-noble

 

[Tilia C.]

Yes her mother is a Schenk von Stauffenberg. But wouldn't hat be better then a non-noble

One might think that she's much closer to being noble than Mia Rohla. But perhaps daddy Wittgenstein was still hoping that he could set up August with a 'real' noble lady? All his hopes must have collapsed by now.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

One might think that she's much closer to being noble than Mia Rohla. But perhaps daddy Wittgenstein was still hoping that he could set up August with a 'real' noble lady? All his hopes must have collapsed by now.

Neither of them are nobles, but oh well. August’s father was at the wedding though and has probably accepted it (maybe grudgingly). He’s not getting the Berleburg inheritance. Also needless to say, I don’t think August was remotely interested in getting the Berleburg property like his father, he probably was more focused on his career.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Neither of them are noble, but oh well.

As you know, the German nobility legally ceased to exist in 1919, but the defunct noble families were permitted to retain their titles in their family names. That was already the situation when Ludwig Ferdinand's great-uncle Gustav Albrecht made his last will in 1943.

Tilia C. is correct when she says Prince Carl-Albrecht zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg married Countess Camilla Schenk von Stauffenberg. The marriage occurred in 2012, prior to Richard's death and the inheritance dispute.

August’s father was at the wedding though and has probably accepted it (maybe grudgingly). He’s not getting the Berleburg inheritance.

Ludwig-Ferdinand already knew he was not getting the Berleburg inheritance by the time of his son August's marriage in 2022, because the court decisions in Gustav's favor already became final in 2020. Therefore, it made no difference whom August married. We do not know how Ludwig-Ferdinand would have felt about August marrying a non-noble if he had won the succession dispute, because in that scenario, August's choice of spouse would have meant he could not succeed Ludwig-Ferdinand as owner of the Berleburg estate after his death.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

As you know, the German nobility legally ceased to exist in 1919, but the defunct noble families were permitted to retain their titles in their family names. That was already the situation when Ludwig Ferdinand's great-uncle Gustav Albrecht made his last will in 1943.

Tilia C. is correct when she says Prince Carl-Albrecht zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg married Countess Camilla Schenk von Stauffenberg. The marriage occurred in 2012, prior to Richard's death and the inheritance dispute.



Ludwig-Ferdinand already knew he was not getting the Berleburg inheritance by the time of his son August's marriage in 2022, because the court decisions in Gustav's favor already became final in 2020. Therefore, it made no difference whom August married. We do not know how Ludwig-Ferdinand would have felt about August marrying a non-noble if he had won the succession dispute, because in that scenario, August's choice of spouse would have meant he could not succeed Ludwig-Ferdinand as owner of the Berleburg estate after his death.

I wasn’t disputing anything, when I say that neither of Ludwig’s daughters in law are nobles, I’m referring to based on the old rules of nobility because the two ladies aren’t.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I wasn’t disputing anything, when I say that neither of Ludwig’s daughters in law are nobles, I’m referring to based on the old rules of nobility because the two ladies aren’t.

I don't think anyone has claimed Mia Rohla was a noble. Which old rule of nobility are you referring to in regard to Countess Camilla?

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I don't think anyone has claimed Mia Rohla was a noble. Which old rule of nobility are you referring to in regard to Countess Camilla?

Camilla’s mother is of noble descent from the Schenk Von Stauffenberg family, but her father is not. Camilla’s father’s last name is Schloesser, she simply took on the Schenk von Stauffenberg name because she was inheriting her maternal grandfather’s property.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Camilla’s mother is of noble descent from the Schenk Von Stauffenberg family, but her father is not. Camilla’s father’s last name is Schloesser, she simply took on the Schenk von Stauffenberg name because she was inheriting her maternal grandfather’s property.

Wasn't Camilla Countess Schenk von Stauffenberg adopted by her maternal uncle because she was to inherit his estate? Her father was a commoner, while her mother was a Schenk von Stauffenberg. So, she was probably not good enough in Ludwig Ferdinand's eyes.

The so-called marriage clause from Gustav-Albrecht's 1943 will (refer to the linked court judgments) read as follows:

und wenn sie eine Ehe eingehen bzw. in einer Ehe leben, mit einer Frau, die adlig geboren ist und hinsichtlich ihrer Abstammung die gegenwärtigen Aufnahmebedingungen für die Mitgliedschaft bei der Deutschen Adelsgenossenschaft erfüllen kann.

Translation:

and if they enter into a marriage or are living in a marriage, with a woman who is noble-born and, with regard to her ancestry, satisfies the current admission requirements for membership in the German Nobility Society.
​

If it is the case that Carl-Albrecht's wife Camilla was born a Schloesser and subsequently became Countess Schenk von Stauffenberg via taking her maternal surname and/or adoption by a maternal relative, then the "woman who is noble-born" limitation would clearly disqualify her husband under the terms of the will, and it would explain why Ludwig-Ferdinand applied to have Carl-Albrecht's younger brother August (who was unmarried at the time) named as next in line after Ludwig-Ferdinand.

If, on the other hand, Camilla was born as a Countess, then Ludwig-Ferdinand's decision to bypass his elder son (Camilla's husband) could be related to his interpretation of the "current admission requirements for membership in the German Nobility Society" clause - although Ludwig-Ferdinand did not bring up this clause when he argued that Gustav should be disqualified (he referred only to Carina Axelsson not being noble-born).

 

[iceflower]

Sunnyi Melles and daughter Leonille, Princess zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn, attended the 73rd Lola - German Film Award in Berlin on May 12:


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[Tatiana Maria]

Would Prince Carl-Albrecht von Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg be subject to the same inheritance rules as Prince Gustav, meaning required to marry a titled lady with several generations of nobility on both sides?

The marriage rule stipulated in the 1943 testament (quoted in the court rulings) for possible male heirs was: "and if they enter into a marriage or are living in a marriage, with a woman who is noble-born and, with regard to her ancestry, satisfies the current admission requirements for membership in the German Nobility Society."

Potential female heirs were, in addition to the rule above, required to marry into a former reigning or mediatized house in order for their children to be eligible to inherit.

The requirements did indeed apply to all possible heirs, so yes, Prince Carl-Albrecht was subject to the same conditions as Prince Gustav for inheritance of the estate: "Die vorstehend berufenen Personen sollen nur Nacherben werden und bleiben, wenn sie [...] Diese für die Nacherben festgelegten Bedingungen gelten auch für den Vorerben, bedeuten also eine Einschränkung der für den Vorerben im Absatz 1 aufgeführten Bestimmungen."

Can anyone tell me what Prince Richard, 6th Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg works as and where does he and Princess Benedikte and their children reside?

Supervising the administration of the Berleburg family estate and its forestry operations was the (now deceased) Prince Richard's full-time profession.

 

[iceflower]

Sunnyi Melles and daughter Leonille, Princess zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn, attended the screening of "Indiana Jones And The Dial Of Destiny" as part of the Cannes Film Festival today, May 18:


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[iceflower]

Sunnyi Melles and daughter Leonille, Princess zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn, attended the screening of "Killers Of The Flower Moon" at the Cannes film festival on May 20:


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[iceflower]

Lilly attended the 2023 DKMS Gala, in aid of the fight against blood cancer, at the Natural History Museum in London yesterday, May 25:


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[maria-olivia]

No Sayn -Wittgenstein at the important Royal Baviera Wedding ???

 

[iceflower]

Ludwig Ferdinand Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and Karl Albrecht Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg spoke during the opening of the Bad Berleburg-Arfeld wind farm near Bad Berleburg on June 6. Karl Albrecht‘s children attended as well:


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