Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events Part 2: Aug 2009 - June 2022

[IloveCP]

I highly doubt they will have children.She is in her 40s and it seems unlikely.I wonder what his parents think of that.

Oh,I wonder if they could change the law and pass it down to a female.

 

[BurberryBrit]

This is a very strange, very sad situation. Carina has obviously decided that being with a Prince is more important than being Gustav's wife. I suspect if this was an ordinary man without the benefits that come along with dating Gustav (ie a castle, connection to the Danish royal family, etc), she would have left a long time ago. It's obvious that she puts up with being his official companion and not his wife because of who he is. Sometimes I feel bad for her but other times, I feel like she's made her choice.

Will they contest the will again?

 

[IloveCP]

Since Prince Gustav is'nt going to be a king,I don't think they take marriage seriously.

 

[NotAPretender]

Will they contest the will again?

Unlikely.

I did notice that she was no longer wearing that ring he gave her.

 

[Muhler]

While waiting for the dinner to finish, let's have a translation.

Translation of Q&A in Billed Bladet #31, 2011. - Kindly requested by Gerry

Where a Susie Knøvl is asking who will inherit Schloss Berleburg in case Prince Gustav has no heirs?

Jon Bloch Skipper replies:
The sisters of Prince Gustav, Alexandra and Nathalie do not have the right to inherit Schloss Berleburg. The large estates and companies of the (extended) family and the problematic will of the grandfather (farfar) still prevents him from being married to and having a family with Carina Axelsson.
If Gustav dies without any heirs, then the whole hulabaloo will presumably go to Prince Bernhart of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein, who is the head of a side branch of the family Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.
Prince Richard's (i.e. Gustav's father) younger brother, Robin, cannot take over Berleburg, because he has married beneath his position and that is against the stipulations/terms in the will.
Gustav and his family are working on having the will overruled at the German courts but that's a long and complicated proces.

- I guess the drama and suspense will continue for several episodes yet, eh Gerry?
A good thing mini-tyrants like the grandfather in question are rapidly dying out. To hell with the happiness of the grandchildren as long as the genetic purity of the clan is preserved. Heaven forbid any genetic riff-raff should dilute things a bit.

 

[NotAPretender]

While waiting for the dinner to finish, let's have a translation.

Translation of Q&A in Billed Bladet #31, 2011. - Kindly requested by Gerry

Where a Susie Knøvl is asking who will inherit Schloss Berleburg in case Prince Gustav has no heirs?

Jon Bloch Skipper replies:
The sisters of Prince Gustav, Alexandra and Nathalie do not have the right to inherit Schloss Berleburg. The large estates and companies of the (extended) family and the problematic will of the grandfather (farfar) still prevents him from being married to and having a family with Carina Axelsson.
If Gustav dies without any heirs, then the whole hulabaloo will presumably go to Prince Bernhart of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein, who is the head of a side branch of the family Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.
Prince Richard's (i.e. Gustav's father) younger brother, Robin, cannot take over Berleburg, because he has married beneath his position and that is against the stipulations/terms in the will.
Gustav and his family are working on having the will overruled at the German courts but that's a long and complicated proces.

- I guess the drama and suspense will continue for several episodes yet, eh Gerry?
A good thing mini-tyrants like the grandfather in question are rapidly dying out. To hell with the happiness of the grandchildren as long as the genetic purity of the clan is preserved. Heaven forbid any genetic riff-raff should dilute things a bit.

Thanks for the translation, Muhler. It seems that we have most definitely had it right all along.

I think it's important to note that the will could be overturned (not likely but it could be) but that the family is also subject to House laws (which we have discussed here before) that also govern marriages. Even in the unlikely event of the will being overturned, Axelsson is not "suitable" under House laws, either.

I'm of the mind that the whole "will overturning" thing is a red herring. Case law is firmly against them, and I am skeptical that they would waste assets attempting to do so when there is a second and more immovable object just behind it.

 

[Renata4711]

Any chance there might be a "soap opera" or reality TV programme on the lives of the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg-Hohenstein etc.etc. royals ??
It would be so much more interesting than fiction....

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

Any chance there might be a "soap opera" or reality TV programme on the lives of the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg-Hohenstein etc.etc. royals ??
It would be so much more interesting than fiction....

german royals don't do that. they still have class enough. usually...

 

[Princess Luna]

How old is Carina?

 

[dbarn67]

I don't think the will can be turned over. I have a friend who's an attorney here in the U.S. and she said the wills are personal documents and most courts wont impose it's will on a personal family will. I suspect that most other country's courts would honor the original will as well.

If that is the case, I think Gustav should make an agreement with some other nobleborn woman to marry, have babies then divorce and live with Carina from there on. I'm sure there are women of his rank who'd do it for same or similar reasons. Heck in this day and age, he can find a lesbian and have IVF. It would certainly make a mockery of the existing will. I have a suspicion that many aristrocrat/royals are similar and that's why they all seem to marry each other.

 

[camelot23ca]

If getting married and/or having children is something that's important to Gustav and Carina then they should get married and/or have children. I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of the legal situation but sometimes people have to make choices in life that aren't entirely fair. Gustav's sisters aren't entitled to inherit the estate, (somehow the inherent unfairness of this doesn't seem to come up as much), and yet they've managed to carry on. I highly doubt Gustav, Carina or any of their potential children will starve no matter what happens with the estate.

My personal feeling is that they're either happy with the situation as is or one of them can't have children. I find it hard to believe that two educated people their age, with no medical issues and who actually want children would wait on the results of a legal fight to have them.

 

[Princess Luna]

I can`t belive this, its year 2011 and Prince Gustav can`t decide who he wanna marry I feel so sorry for him and Carina.

 

[Lenora]

From material and financial perspective it's a rather difficult matter,from the other side ,people(even actual royals) are no longer living in dark Middle Age.I think Gustav should have married a noble woman some years ago, before meeting Carina.The other ways are stupid,to marry for reason,to make kids and then divorce-a complete nonsense,even he'll find a noble woman who will be enough greedy to accept it,it will be a total catastrophe in his life,he could lose Carina forever or she may not accept to destroy the supposed children' childhood and apparent happiness.Gustav should resign and decide now,otherwise it could be too late ,he should remember some members of Windsor dynasty,who left or were ready to leave all the privileges for love and that was in far more years ago.
I guess many aristocrats marry in their late thirties or forties only because of such matters ,when they grow enough to be masters of their own life.
It's just ridiculous!

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

I don't think the will can be turned over. I have a friend who's an attorney here in the U.S. and she said the wills are personal documents and most courts wont impose it's will on a personal family will. I suspect that most other country's courts would honor the original will as well.

Actually in Germany it's a bit different. Even if you are written out of the will, you can contest it (if you are a blood relative that is) and you are given a certain percentage of the inherited amount determined by the law.

 

[Muhler]

How old is Carina?

She will turn 43 tomorrow, Friday.

 

[NotAPretender]

Actually in Germany it's a bit different. Even if you are written out of the will, you can contest it (if you are a blood relative that is) and you are given a certain percentage of the inherited amount determined by the law.

However, as case law shows in similar situations in Germany Heads of Household/House law can place restrictions on inheritance based on behaviour. This has been upheld in similar situations to this one, as has been covered previously in this thread and in the first thread.

I don't think I can muster up sympathy for either. It's a mercenary decision on their parts. They like how it is and choose to live without marriage but with money. What's to feel pity for?

I can`t belive this, its year 2011 and Prince Gustav can`t decide who he wanna marry I feel so sorry for him and Carina.

Yes, he can, Luna. He can marry her today, tomorrow, whenever he wishes. He chooses not to.

This thread and the previous one have covered this exhaustively, and the fact remains that Gustav can marry whomever he chooses, whenever he chooses.

 

[Kasumi]

I do not feel compassion for Carina anymore, because of her most unkind words about the parents of Prince Gustav, especially about such sweet lady as Princess Benedicte.

 

[sjetajiem]

I do not feel compassion for Carina anymore, because of her most unkind words about the parents of Prince Gustav, especially about such sweet lady as Princess Benedicte.

Do I miss something?
I never heard about unkind comments to the parents in law?
Looking at the pics I have the impression that the relation between mother and daughter in law is OK.

 

[Kasumi]

Do I miss something?
I never heard about unkind comments to the parents in law?
...

It's all contained in the prior thread, sjetajiem.
They are not 'parents-in-law', since there was no marriage registered.

 

[camelot23ca]

Do I miss something?
I never heard about unkind comments to the parents in law?
Looking at the pics I have the impression that the relation between mother and daughter in law is OK.

If I remember correctly she gave an interview with a couple of remarks about Prince Richard that, IMO, weren't unkind but were, let's say, more honest than usual for that sort of interview. Given the similarly direct remarks Richard himself has made about the Danish royals in the past, it's hard to see him as a victim.
I don't have the interview in front of me but I believe Carina was quite complimentary towards Princess Benedickte.

 

[princess gertrude]

The whole situation with these two is really odd and is going to lead to nothing but a mess and heartache for someone. But it's their lives and if they're happy right now then more power to them, I just can't see this ending anything but badly for someone, probably Carina.

 

[NotAPretender]

The interview is found earlier in the thread. And there wasn't a kind word about anyone.

They have made a decision that this is what they want and how they want it. Why is there such an insistence that they marry? It picks no one's pocket that the money will go to a cousin rather than a son.

I genuinely believe that the "protesting the will" idea has long been left by the wayside as they have zero chance of success. This is exactly who they are and what they are.

 

[Kataryn]

I was not aware that in German law you could make stipulations that are holding up several generations down. Two generations, yes, if you skip one generation. You can say: all goes to one child. My eldest son does not inherit, but if he has a son and this son either fulfills the necessary requirements or does not do things I explicitely forbid, then he inherits and keeps it.

But he cannot force this heir to live according to house rules. These house rules are not longer legally binding if they are not accepted by the living members of a noble house. So of course Richard together with Gustav (who is the owner of the castle as long as he does not forfeit this right through the wrong marriage, I think) can decide that they don't accept the house laws. And Gustav, as he is legally the owner, can decide to name his sister and her children as his heirs. According to German law, this could even be the "important reason" needed to change the name of the children from "Graf Pfeil" (? Is that correct?) to their mother's name of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.

At least that was what I heard when a friend of my mother-in-law inquired at a lawyer how she could protect part of her inhertance from her daughter and give it to the grand-child directly on condition that this grand-child does keep the estate and take care for the daughter (his mother) as long as she lives. She was told that she can't make those stipulation for the heir of her heir in case the grandson died before his mother who in that case would be the heiress of her son if he had no own children or wasn't married. The only way to protect the estate in any case was turning it into a family foundation with rules about who profited from it as long as the foundation was valid but she didn't do it. Back to Gutsav: I don't think the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg estates are a family foundation as well ( as eg is the family foundation of the Wittelsbach, which grants male descendants much greater support than the princesses which is unjust but obviously legal).

 

[NotAPretender]

Then you seem to have struck on a solution, Kataryn, that the S-W-B's do not wish to avail themselves of. Similarly, there was an opportunity for the couple to marry religiously and via adoption of her children by him, have inheritance rights; Jo of Palentine brought that up.

We don't know exactly what was in that will that makes it so impenetrable, nor the House laws.

So there are some solutions such as yours, Kataryn, but yet they are (seeming to be) taking the harder route of direct strike-down of the will.

It seems that they don't want a solution, then.

Back to Gutsav: I don't think the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg estates are a family foundation as well ( as eg is the family foundation of the Wittelsbach, which grants male descendants much greater support than the princesses which is unjust but obviously legal).

Just want you to know how much I agree with what you wrote! How much simpler if Gustav's sisters could inherit, as Alexandra married equally and has legitimate children!

 

[Princess Luna]

However, as case law shows in similar situations in Germany Heads of Household/House law can place restrictions on inheritance based on behaviour. This has been upheld in similar situations to this one, as has been covered previously in this thread and in the first thread.

I don't think I can muster up sympathy for either. It's a mercenary decision on their parts. They like how it is and choose to live without marriage but with money. What's to feel pity for?



Yes, he can, Luna. He can marry her today, tomorrow, whenever he wishes. He chooses not to.

This thread and the previous one have covered this exhaustively, and the fact remains that Gustav can marry whomever he chooses, whenever he chooses.

I thought he couldn`t marry, because of his grandfather`s will ?

 

[Vesper1987]

Gustav can marry anyone he likes, he has free will to do whatever he likes but if he wants to hold on to the House of Berleburg he has to marry a noble woman. I agree with Camelot23ca, there are many things in life that are unfair but people have to suck it up and deal with it.

My opinion is if they are happy to just live together more power to them but I it's hard to feel sorry for people who can get married at anytime they want to but don't just to hold on to an inheritance. Carina in my opinon knew what she got herself into so if she is happy playing princess and being Gustav's partner forever than I hope they are very happy together.

 

[Muhler]

Gustav can marry anyone he likes, he has free will to do whatever he likes but if he wants to hold on to the House of Berleburg he has to marry a noble woman. I agree with Camelot23ca, there are many things in life that are unfair but people have to suck it up and deal with it.

My opinion is if they are happy to just live together more power to them but I it's hard to feel sorry for people who can get married at anytime they want to but don't just to hold on to an inheritance. Carina in my opinon knew what she got herself into so if she is happy playing princess and being Gustav's partner forever than I hope they are very happy together.

Eh, let's turn that one around.

- "We are in love, let's get married. Okay, that means I lose my estate and a huge fortune, and our children will never inherit said estate and a huge fortune. They'll have to settle for something less but at least we got married".
That sounds a little bit selfish in my eyes.

 

[efraimsdotter]

But he cannot force this heir to live according to house rules. These house rules are not longer legally binding if they are not accepted by the living members of a noble house.

I think I read once that Gustav's uncle insists that house rules be followed. That if the entire family had agreed upon it, Gustav could have kept the estate and still married Carina. The will in itself is horrible, but was written in another era. What makes me sick, though, is that someone in this time and age insists that it should be followed.

 

[Princess Luna]

I think I read once that Gustav's uncle insists that house rules be followed. That if the entire family had agreed upon it, Gustav could have kept the estate and still married Carina. The will in itself is horrible, but was written in another era. What makes me sick, though, is that someone in this time and age insists that it should be followed.

Yes is terrible

 

[NotAPretender]

I think I read once that Gustav's uncle insists that house rules be followed. That if the entire family had agreed upon it, Gustav could have kept the estate and still married Carina. The will in itself is horrible, but was written in another era. What makes me sick, though, is that someone in this time and age insists that it should be followed.

We have covered this already, earlier in the thread. Extensively. Exhaustively.

This is. Not. True.

Please provide a link or a source for this "uncle insisting," or perhaps read earlier in the thread where within the past week, Mueler has translated an article discussing the heirs. Why would an uncle without a stake in this, enforce the will? Think about that and see if it makes sense.

Princess Luna - again, I strongly recommend reading through the first thread and the second thread to gain a fuller understanding here. Gustav can marry anyone he chooses - any time! According to both his grandfather's will and House law, he has to marry someone with a certain background (also discussed extensively in this thread) or he loses his money and inheritance.

So he is not marrying Carina in order to keep his money.

May I just suggest again that those interested in this topic take the time to read through both of the threads covering this? We have had some really good process in all this, in understanding the issue.

Eh, let's turn that one around.

- "We are in love, let's get married. Okay, that means I lose my estate and a huge fortune, and our children will never inherit said estate and a huge fortune. They'll have to settle for something less but at least we got married".
That sounds a little bit selfish in my eyes.

"Darling, if we marry and I lose my money, you will have to work for a living! I will have to work for a living! Our children will have to become educated taxpaying equals in society, earning a living!"

That sounds pretty...entitled.

Can't have it both ways.

Gustav knew that the one thing he had to do in this life was to marry "appropriately." And he failed at that. You could also argue that he's selfishly throwing away the legacy of his family over centuries by just stopping in place. You could also argue that the only reason he HAS the money at all is because of the careful estate planning of his grandfather. There's a strong case to be made for all of that loot being taken after WWII as the rightful spoils of war or to enormous inheritance taxes which existed as well, leaving baby Prince Richard destitute and the future Gustav in the position of having to, you know, go out and work for a living. How dreadful to contemplate, eh?

They've decided to just march in place, and you know what? They can. But what they can't and should do is whine about what is making them "not" marry. And to be honest, neither has whined about it for a long time, they've just accepted that this is how it is.