I wouldn't believe. She is older.
Prince Gustav and Carina Axelsson, Current Events & Discussion 1: July 2007-Aug 2009
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I wouldn't believe. She is older.
GlitteringTiaras
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Nobody really knows. Some reports state that she is in her early thrities; yet in a recent article about her they noted that she was 39 years old.
So once again, no one really knows for sure at this point.
Odette
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Quick question. When Prince Richard passes and Gustav inherits all that is his can he turn around and legally marry Carina? Hopefully this is going to be a long way down the road so who will be the next in line after Gustav?
JessRulz
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Odette, Richard never inherited the Berleburg estate - his father (the one who wrote the will) skipped his son and left it all to his unborn grandson (Gustav), which was a common thing during the time of the war, so that the family didn't have to pay two lots of death tax in the space of a few years. There is more information about the ifs and whats further back in the thread 
Odette
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Thank you Jess. I am going to get me a hot cup of coffee and start from the beginning. I will hopefully be able to navigate through the posts about Carina's eyebrows or lack of and get to the bottom of this.Odette, Richard never inherited the Berleburg estate - his father (the one who wrote the will) skipped his son and left it all to his unborn grandson (Gustav), which was a common thing during the time of the war, so that the family didn't have to pay two lots of death tax in the space of a few years. There is more information about the ifs and whats further back in the thread
However I find it sad that Gustav's cousins can marry commoners and fashion them HRH and he cannot even get married to the one he loves.........
NotAPretender
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The Will and Being Able to Marry
OK. The following is not a discussion about either of this couple’s career or lack thereof, weight, height or teeth.
It’s about the entire overturning-the-will situation. And this is what I find distasteful about it.
Prince Gustav was engaged before. Clearly, because his parents announced the engagement - it was on the DRF Web site - and no mention of any inheritance problems came up at that time, one presumes that the prior fiancé, Miss Elvire Pasté de Rochefort, was the “right” sort according to the will of the grandfather.
Now, it is the same will that is under consideration today. Nothing has changed to the document.
Gustav can marry Carina, any time he wishes. There is no law or no will preventing him from doing so. He is not being denied the right to his bride of choice. He chooses not to marry her, for the purposes that certainly appear to be based solely on materiality.
If it is wrong now to require that the bride of Prince Gustav be “Aryan,” as well as noble and the other requirements at the cost of these material items, it was just as wrong when Gustav was engaged to Elvire Pasté de Rochefort, in 2000. But because there were no financial penalties to the equation at that time with that choice of bride, Prince Gustav and the Berleburg family were willing to accept the money, titles, and stuff along with the conditions of that very same will.
No one spared a scruple at that time for whether the terms were offensive, illegal, fascist, or any other label. Those terms of inheritance were accepted at that time, for Prince Gustav and his presumed bride Elvire Pasté de Rochefort.
So now, it’s a new fiancé, or partner, or what-have-you. Again, nothing has changed except the choice of bride. The heir has not changed, the will has not changed, the terms of the will which govern the bride of Berleburg have not changed. However, this choice of bride causes the Gustav to lose out on money, title, property, etc.
Now, only when there will be direct affect to themselves, is suddenly there a hand-wringing and a hue-and-cry about how unfair the terms of the will are, how unjust, how unloving, and how simply dreadful it would be if Prince Gustav could not marry Ms. Axelsson, etc etc.
Well, their collective conscience appears to have only been awakened when there was financial detriment.
That’s. Awfully. Convenient.
It would have made a lot more impact if Prince Gustav had not waited until he felt his own pocket was being picked before deciding to raise a protest against the nature and terms of his grandfather’s will. The best that could be said is that there is a certain air of hollowness about the protest of the will, given the circumstances under which the family finally decided to try to have it overturned. I might even say it is the very definition of cynical, to act in this manner.
I would have a great deal more respect for them if they simply declared that they were life partners, get married, and live as husband and wife without resorting to pretending that they find the will horrifying and are protesting it on grounds of human dignity. It’s possible to live without titles, property, money, jewels. It’s even possible to live rich, loving, and fully conscious lives without these things. I venture that most of us who post here live rich lives without a fraction of this sort of “stuff.”
Don’t get me wrong; I would love to see the will overturned. That kind of language has no place in this world. At all.
That being said: the will was just fine by the standards of the family before now, in all its exclusions.
I don’t think that the Berleburg family is protesting this will based on human rights issues. That’s merely the costuming that they have dressed it in. They are protesting this will so that Prince Gustav can “have it all.”
By not objecting to it during his earlier engagement, they gave it tacit approval. Now, they are protesting this will so that one particular man can have one particular woman – richly, splendidly, with accoutrements.
Again - Gustav can marry her, any time he wishes. . He chooses not to marry her, based on material issues - as a form of wealth management.
To me, it’s at the very least disingenuous to pretend that this is anything other than an unwillingness to sacrifice “lucre” for a principle.
Or even to sacrifice money for “true love.”
YMMV.
OK. The following is not a discussion about either of this couple’s career or lack thereof, weight, height or teeth.
It’s about the entire overturning-the-will situation. And this is what I find distasteful about it.
Prince Gustav was engaged before. Clearly, because his parents announced the engagement - it was on the DRF Web site - and no mention of any inheritance problems came up at that time, one presumes that the prior fiancé, Miss Elvire Pasté de Rochefort, was the “right” sort according to the will of the grandfather.
Now, it is the same will that is under consideration today. Nothing has changed to the document.
Gustav can marry Carina, any time he wishes. There is no law or no will preventing him from doing so. He is not being denied the right to his bride of choice. He chooses not to marry her, for the purposes that certainly appear to be based solely on materiality.
If it is wrong now to require that the bride of Prince Gustav be “Aryan,” as well as noble and the other requirements at the cost of these material items, it was just as wrong when Gustav was engaged to Elvire Pasté de Rochefort, in 2000. But because there were no financial penalties to the equation at that time with that choice of bride, Prince Gustav and the Berleburg family were willing to accept the money, titles, and stuff along with the conditions of that very same will.
No one spared a scruple at that time for whether the terms were offensive, illegal, fascist, or any other label. Those terms of inheritance were accepted at that time, for Prince Gustav and his presumed bride Elvire Pasté de Rochefort.
So now, it’s a new fiancé, or partner, or what-have-you. Again, nothing has changed except the choice of bride. The heir has not changed, the will has not changed, the terms of the will which govern the bride of Berleburg have not changed. However, this choice of bride causes the Gustav to lose out on money, title, property, etc.
Now, only when there will be direct affect to themselves, is suddenly there a hand-wringing and a hue-and-cry about how unfair the terms of the will are, how unjust, how unloving, and how simply dreadful it would be if Prince Gustav could not marry Ms. Axelsson, etc etc.
Well, their collective conscience appears to have only been awakened when there was financial detriment.
That’s. Awfully. Convenient.
It would have made a lot more impact if Prince Gustav had not waited until he felt his own pocket was being picked before deciding to raise a protest against the nature and terms of his grandfather’s will. The best that could be said is that there is a certain air of hollowness about the protest of the will, given the circumstances under which the family finally decided to try to have it overturned. I might even say it is the very definition of cynical, to act in this manner.
I would have a great deal more respect for them if they simply declared that they were life partners, get married, and live as husband and wife without resorting to pretending that they find the will horrifying and are protesting it on grounds of human dignity. It’s possible to live without titles, property, money, jewels. It’s even possible to live rich, loving, and fully conscious lives without these things. I venture that most of us who post here live rich lives without a fraction of this sort of “stuff.”
Don’t get me wrong; I would love to see the will overturned. That kind of language has no place in this world. At all.
That being said: the will was just fine by the standards of the family before now, in all its exclusions.
I don’t think that the Berleburg family is protesting this will based on human rights issues. That’s merely the costuming that they have dressed it in. They are protesting this will so that Prince Gustav can “have it all.”
By not objecting to it during his earlier engagement, they gave it tacit approval. Now, they are protesting this will so that one particular man can have one particular woman – richly, splendidly, with accoutrements.
Again - Gustav can marry her, any time he wishes. . He chooses not to marry her, based on material issues - as a form of wealth management.
To me, it’s at the very least disingenuous to pretend that this is anything other than an unwillingness to sacrifice “lucre” for a principle.
Or even to sacrifice money for “true love.”
YMMV.
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Odette
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I spent a whole week reading throughout the entire thread.
Logically ( my logic at least) speaking Gustav and Carina are having another 6-8 years to fight the will, win/lose, get married and have children. ( Carina's clock is ticking)
So what if Gustav forgoes his title as the head of the family, hands over the title and all the privilege that this brings along and marries Carina. AFTER the next in line guarantees him an income from the estate, titles for Carina and his descendants? I am sure there is a large fortune for everyone to be happy. If Gustav truly loves Carina he should be able to put all material things aside for her sake and I am sure she would be happy marrying the prince she loves with or without the titles.
NotAPretender
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I think that's well stated, Odette
I think that's well stated. I think it's an interesting thought that you have, that the next heir would pay a stipend to Gustav in return for stepping aside.
Does anyone know the current status of the lawsuit? Last I heard, it was still under consideration.
I think that's well stated. I think it's an interesting thought that you have, that the next heir would pay a stipend to Gustav in return for stepping aside.
Does anyone know the current status of the lawsuit? Last I heard, it was still under consideration.
Jo of Palatine
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The thing is that the Berleburg are basically owners of forest, of real existing soil and the responsibility that comes from it. They're not owners of "virtual" money that is not affected if ownership changes. If they stop working their land, if they stop living in their castle, someone has to upkeep it if they loose it. That "someone" being the German taxpayer. As one of those I personally prefer that the land and immobiles stay in their responsibility.
So let the Berleburg's keep what they have. People are invited to cisit the historical part of the Castle, people can walk their dogs or children or themselves in the forests. So it's quite the sort of community estate of the old times, other than some properties here in the South which had to be sold and were bought by "private citizens who want to keep their privacy". The Berleburgs like many nobles keep in touch with "their people" and compared to other rich people owning land, this is nice to experience.
You asked why they didn't contest that will: I'd say because that costs enormous amounts of money that will be missing when the next part of the Castle has to be restored or the next part of the forest is destroyed by bugs and has to be reforested. You have to be rich enough to afford the right kind of politcal correctness and Im afraid the Berleburgs are not that rich. And good for them that they do it now when real lives of real people are affected.
NotAPretender
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Thoughtful response
No, Jo, I really don't agree. One doesn't have to be rich to "afford" the "right" kind of political correctness. Just to have a conscience. And bigotry, hatred, and exclusion has always affected real lives, real people.
This will has always affected the Berleburg family as well. It just wasn't something that affected them negatively before.
They are fighting it because it has affected them negatively; perhaps they consider themselves and their money as the only people, the only cause worth fighting for; I'd like not to think so, but the pattern here pretty damning on the prima facie.
I am heartened by the fact that this young woman (well, the appellation of "young" does appear in question, but no matter
) is embraced by the family, but it doesn't change my essential argument that they aren't fighting for her, they are fighting for the money & the stuff, to keep, for themselves.
Sacrificing for the one you love isn't new or radical; he can marry her if he is willing to sacrifice. The money and property stay within the Berleburg family, the titles remain, etc. The woods, the house, the land...all of these are immobile, and will be part of the landscape forever. There is just a new holder of the title, and that is whoever is next in line.
I really never asked why they didn't fight it before. They accepted it before. They just did - no questions asked.
The will-overturning attempt seems cynical, and selfish, and self-serving to me. Had he not been engaged before, to the "right" (ugh!) sort of bride, I probably would not feel the same.
But one can't dress this up as a fight against bigotry, when it fact it's a fight for money/land/title/materiality.
.
You have to be rich enough to afford the right kind of politcal correctness and Im afraid the Berleburgs are not that rich. And good for them that they do it now when real lives of real people are affected.
No, Jo, I really don't agree. One doesn't have to be rich to "afford" the "right" kind of political correctness. Just to have a conscience. And bigotry, hatred, and exclusion has always affected real lives, real people.
This will has always affected the Berleburg family as well. It just wasn't something that affected them negatively before.
They are fighting it because it has affected them negatively; perhaps they consider themselves and their money as the only people, the only cause worth fighting for; I'd like not to think so, but the pattern here pretty damning on the prima facie.
I am heartened by the fact that this young woman (well, the appellation of "young" does appear in question, but no matter
) is embraced by the family, but it doesn't change my essential argument that they aren't fighting for her, they are fighting for the money & the stuff, to keep, for themselves. Sacrificing for the one you love isn't new or radical; he can marry her if he is willing to sacrifice. The money and property stay within the Berleburg family, the titles remain, etc. The woods, the house, the land...all of these are immobile, and will be part of the landscape forever. There is just a new holder of the title, and that is whoever is next in line.
I really never asked why they didn't fight it before. They accepted it before. They just did - no questions asked.
The will-overturning attempt seems cynical, and selfish, and self-serving to me. Had he not been engaged before, to the "right" (ugh!) sort of bride, I probably would not feel the same.
But one can't dress this up as a fight against bigotry, when it fact it's a fight for money/land/title/materiality.
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GlitteringTiaras
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Thank you for posting your comments, NaP.
However, I must say that this case isn't as black and white as some may believe. There is much more to this Will drama than the public may know, and it seems to me that Carina does not want Gustav to give up everything in order to marry her (which I understand.) If she is happy with being the official life companion (with a huge ruby and diamond ring on her wedding finger) and the official Lady of the Schloss then so be it, and who cares about the whole "clock ticking" baby thing. I wish the couple happiness... married or not.
However, I must say that this case isn't as black and white as some may believe. There is much more to this Will drama than the public may know, and it seems to me that Carina does not want Gustav to give up everything in order to marry her (which I understand.) If she is happy with being the official life companion (with a huge ruby and diamond ring on her wedding finger) and the official Lady of the Schloss then so be it, and who cares about the whole "clock ticking" baby thing. I wish the couple happiness... married or not.
Odette
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GT if the whole idea is about preserving the inheritance and keeping in Gustav's control what it entails, then the idea of living happily ever after and who cares about the clock ticking, goes against the whole fight they have.
If Carina and Gustav are happy to stay in this situation forever, good for them but the whole idea is the preservation of the fortune and its transfer to their heirs. If there will be no heirs because neither one of them cares then why they do not forgo of the ties and responsibilities and live a normal life?
If Carina and Gustav are happy to stay in this situation forever, good for them but the whole idea is the preservation of the fortune and its transfer to their heirs. If there will be no heirs because neither one of them cares then why they do not forgo of the ties and responsibilities and live a normal life?
GlitteringTiaras
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True. But if that should happen, then oh well.
On the flipside, what happens if she becomes pregnant (baby clock ticking) outside of marriage hence as the official life companion... does that go against the whole issue? Will the child be passed over? Off the top of my head, I'm not sure, but I doubt it. They can still have kids together even if they are not married. So let them be.
JessRulz
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I believe it was Jo of Palentine who said earlier in the thread that by German law, if Gustav and Carina were to have a child out of wedlock, Gustav could adopt the baby and then the baby would become heir/ess to the Berleburg estate, hence securing the future of the family/estate
Odette
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GlitteringTiaras
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Pfft... yeah right.
NotAPretender
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A bit mysterious, more details, please
GT - what details have we missed? As moderator of this forum, I presume that in making this statement, that you have additional information that you wish to share. I for one would be delighted to hear what "much more" there is. It's quite an interesting case study in all ways.
I certainly made no attempt to characterize this as a simple matter. As I believe I wrote back in post #204 on 4/7/2008:
If he chooses to make this woman his life partner, then there may be a price to be paid for that. Clearly, he doesn't think he should have to pay any price at all. Few things are that simple.If he chooses to make this woman his life partner, then there may be a price to be paid for that. Clearly, he doesn't think he should have to pay any price at all. Few things are that simple.
Was there an earlier attempt to overturn the will, perhaps, not based in pecuniary needs? Were there other legal maneuvers done between engagements? Prior to the original engagement?
Thank you in advance for this information, I'm certain that you did not mean to be cryptic.
Yes, it has been mentioned that having a child is also perfectly within the rights of the couple. It would be interesting to see how long this case drags through the courts, and at what stage in the stakes the couple might resort to that as their "best" option for wealth management and family planning.
Thank you for posting your comments, NaP.
However, I must say that this case isn't as black and white as some may believe. There is much more to this Will drama than the public may know... married or not.
GT - what details have we missed? As moderator of this forum, I presume that in making this statement, that you have additional information that you wish to share. I for one would be delighted to hear what "much more" there is. It's quite an interesting case study in all ways.
I certainly made no attempt to characterize this as a simple matter. As I believe I wrote back in post #204 on 4/7/2008:
If he chooses to make this woman his life partner, then there may be a price to be paid for that. Clearly, he doesn't think he should have to pay any price at all. Few things are that simple.If he chooses to make this woman his life partner, then there may be a price to be paid for that. Clearly, he doesn't think he should have to pay any price at all. Few things are that simple.
Was there an earlier attempt to overturn the will, perhaps, not based in pecuniary needs? Were there other legal maneuvers done between engagements? Prior to the original engagement?
Thank you in advance for this information, I'm certain that you did not mean to be cryptic.
Yes, it has been mentioned that having a child is also perfectly within the rights of the couple. It would be interesting to see how long this case drags through the courts, and at what stage in the stakes the couple might resort to that as their "best" option for wealth management and family planning.
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GlitteringTiaras
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There was an article awhile back in which it stated that there was more to the situation than the public knows about. When I find the piece I'll post it for all to read for themselves.
No idea.
Don't know.
Not sure.
No problem and not at all. I pretty know the same information (which I post when I find it or if someone else does) as the small select few who are interested in this case and the couple on a whole.
What it all boils down to, in my opinion, if Carina is happy with being the official life companion and the Lady of the Schloss for the rest of her life, then so be it. I just find it bizarre that some insist that she should leave him if they aren't married by now. Strange. I guess I'm not like other women who believe that in order to have a life with someone they desperately need to be married. All marriage is a signed piece of paper. I know couples, gay and straight, who have been together for years without being married and they are perfectly happy. Why do people need to get married? Why? Most marriages end in divorce these days anyway. Save yourself the financial headache and keep seperate accounts...
Look, the situation with Gustav and Carina doesn't look good. The case has been dragging on and on for years now, and it seems that the two, without publically stating it, realize that the best thing is for them to be life partners. I know Gustav has said that he will marry her one day ("It will happen."), but when... not anytime soon as long as that one dude is still in the way.
I hope that made some sense.
NotAPretender
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Well, we can certainly agree on that
I am also of the opinion that if they want to live together and raise a family, then it's fine, with or without marriage. While I don't hold that marriage is simply a "piece of paper," I personally know many couples who have maintained strong relationships without being able to marry, for decades.
It seems, though, that marriage is the ideal for this couple - else why go through the efforts & expense of trying to overturn the will? I would suggest that it is their ardent desire to wed - and maintain the property - that has led to the suit and to this fascinating discussion.
By the way....who did we decide was the "next heir" of the Berleburg? Given that Alexandra's children do not represent the next heir, who will inherit after Gustav, should he and Carina fail to, er, reproduce?
I am also of the opinion that if they want to live together and raise a family, then it's fine, with or without marriage. While I don't hold that marriage is simply a "piece of paper," I personally know many couples who have maintained strong relationships without being able to marry, for decades.
It seems, though, that marriage is the ideal for this couple - else why go through the efforts & expense of trying to overturn the will? I would suggest that it is their ardent desire to wed - and maintain the property - that has led to the suit and to this fascinating discussion.
By the way....who did we decide was the "next heir" of the Berleburg? Given that Alexandra's children do not represent the next heir, who will inherit after Gustav, should he and Carina fail to, er, reproduce?
Jo of Palatine
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Am back after a short break and see that noone has mentioned the upcoming change in German family law which will become valid at the beginning of next year.
This law revises a law that became valid in 1875 which forced the churches to only marry people religiously when they had married by the state's lwa before. From 1.1.2009 church marriages and state marriages are two seperate bodies of law again like it was in 1875 and before.
How does that influence Gustaf and Carina?
A will with a provision about the marriage of an heir most likely will only affect a marriage by public law. Houselaws which are older than 1875 most probably are build around religious marriages, as public marriages did not really exist before that date. So when in 2009 these two types of marriage are seperated as bodies of law, Gustaf could marry Carina in church (probably valid according to his houselaws when it comes to produce legitimate heirs) while not marry her in a public office. It's a discussion going on if a church wedding consists of an "important reason" for a name change according to general law but as far as I could find out most experts say that it is.
So if Gustav married Carina in church, she could even get a name change to Princess of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and bear "legitimate" children with a claim to both the name and the inheritance of their father while the will is not affected by it.
I personally like that idea for Gustaf and Carina's sake, though I wished the will's provision about an "Aryan" marriage would be declared void. But who knows when and if this will happen!
This law revises a law that became valid in 1875 which forced the churches to only marry people religiously when they had married by the state's lwa before. From 1.1.2009 church marriages and state marriages are two seperate bodies of law again like it was in 1875 and before.
How does that influence Gustaf and Carina?
A will with a provision about the marriage of an heir most likely will only affect a marriage by public law. Houselaws which are older than 1875 most probably are build around religious marriages, as public marriages did not really exist before that date. So when in 2009 these two types of marriage are seperated as bodies of law, Gustaf could marry Carina in church (probably valid according to his houselaws when it comes to produce legitimate heirs) while not marry her in a public office. It's a discussion going on if a church wedding consists of an "important reason" for a name change according to general law but as far as I could find out most experts say that it is.
So if Gustav married Carina in church, she could even get a name change to Princess of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg and bear "legitimate" children with a claim to both the name and the inheritance of their father while the will is not affected by it.
I personally like that idea for Gustaf and Carina's sake, though I wished the will's provision about an "Aryan" marriage would be declared void. But who knows when and if this will happen!
From what I can tell, the next heir that meets the requirement for the will would be, PrinceBernhart, Furstzu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein. He is married toKatherina Countess von Podewils-Durniz and they have a son, HP Wenzel born in 1997. After that it would be prince Otto Ludwig of Sayn Wittgentein Berleberg, married to a Barroness von Cramm, the parents of Princess Lilly who was married to The Prince of Schuamberg-Lippe. However their eldest son is not married to a noble woman and so their youngest son, Prince Maximillian, wold be the next heir
michelleq
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Correct me if I am wrong, but whoever qualifies for the current will, will become head of the house and make his heir not go through the same qualifications. I thought that the Aryan, Noble and Protestant was for Gustav (or if he doesn't inherit) the next in line heir.
Did I say this correctly?
Did I say this correctly?
Next Star
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Prince Gustav can't even marry his beloved because of a law.Which I find sad
and he is of a non reigning house hopefully someday in this lifetime that he will be able to marry and have children with the woman he loves.
and he is of a non reigning house hopefully someday in this lifetime that he will be able to marry and have children with the woman he loves.
He CAN marry her if he's willing to give up his present status. I think that they are waiting for the court to make a decision so that they will be able to plan their future. Is there any reason that if they don't marry but have children that their kids would not be able to inherit their father's estate?
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I meant to say he can't keep his status if he marries her because of a law.
Gustav and Carina should be able to mary for love instead of law but they
want to see how things pin out in court I agree with that statement made
in your previous post.
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The law does not get involved with who he can marry. It is the stipulation in his grandfather's will that states the requirements of his bride.
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It seems we have misunderstanding from my two previous post on this pacific thread.
He will lose his noble status and title along with the headship of the house
and the estate for marrying a woman who does not have the requirements
stated in late grandfather's will.
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