Prince Albert and Princess Charlene's Relationship - Part 2

[Moonmaiden23]

According to some reports, the late Princess Grace never mastered the French language..she remained a student her entire life. But then again the Princess was busy with child rearing and her innumerable social and charitable duties, she had her hands quite full from beginning to the end of her remarkable life.

As for Charlene, she has been a permanent residence of the Principality for about three years now, with a LOT of time on her hands. This is more than enough time for her to have immersed herself in the French language to a degree that she should be at least able to speak and understand somewhat....as for her still being a Protestant, if true it is the strongest indication so far that Albert is content to keep her as maitresse en titre and has no intention to marry her. He must realize that a non-Catholic Princess would be a first, and probably unacceptable to his subjects as well.

Monaco and the world have changed for sure..but not THAT much.

How baffling it all is.....

 

[Renata4711]

What puzzles me is the fact that neither Grace nor Charlene seem to have learnt French in school. At least there would have been some foundation to build on.
As a teacher/tutor of French, I have sympathy with anyone who has to learn the language in order to earn a living or in their private life.

In Charlene's case I suspect that she mixes mainly with bilingual or trilingual people in Monaco. Still, it's no excuse for not learning French. This would enable her to be taken more seriously by ordinary Monégasques as well as members of the government or the Mairie.

The Protestant "problem" is not as bad as one thinks. If Albert were to marry Charlene or any other female Protestant, the marriage vows would not be said at the altar, but a step lower.

 

[Zonk]

Well I can't speak for Charlene's South African education but I will say at least now...while its a requirement for US students to learn a language. Its not like how it is in Europe. For example, you need maybe two years of a language in high school at least in Maryland. But its not a graduation requirement you are fluent in the language, you just need to learn how to conguate a verb, etc. Say a couple of phrases. Of course, if one major's in a language then its totally different.

I myself took two years of Latin so it could help me on SAT's. Do you think I can speak it Did it help me on my SAT's...NO!

Now for Grace, its surprising that she was not fluent only because of her background (quasi society girl although she was new money). I can't remember is she Main Line Philadelphia? I am thinking no new money. Anyone who is part of the true society might have learnt a language i.e. Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis.

Now in regards to Charlene, if she is not working then she could make an effort to learn French. I mean, Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands speak their new languages fairly well but I think they were married so it was more of an effort. Or maybe they saw a goal and realize the importance of their new roles.

Either way I have said it before and I will say it again....Charlene is a grown woman if she is willing to accept this relationship as it is...who am I to question it.

 

[hibou]

Well I can't speak for Charlene's South African education but I will say at least now...while its a requirement for US students to learn a language. Its not like how it is in Europe. For example, you need maybe two years of a language in high school at least in Maryland. But its not a graduation requirement you are fluent in the language, you just need to learn how to conguate a verb, etc. Say a couple of phrases. Of course, if one major's in a language then its totally different.

I myself took two years of Latin so it could help me on SAT's. Do you think I can speak it Did it help me on my SAT's...NO!

Now for Grace, its surprising that she was not fluent only because of her background (quasi society girl although she was new money). I can't remember is she Main Line Philadelphia? I am thinking no new money. Anyone who is part of the true society might have learnt a language i.e. Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis.

Now in regards to Charlene, if she is not working then she could make an effort to learn French. I mean, Mary of Denmark and Maxima of the Netherlands speak their new languages fairly well but I think they were married so it was more of an effort. Or maybe they saw a goal and realize the importance of their new roles.

Either way I have said it before and I will say it again....Charlene is a grown woman if she is willing to accept this relationship as it is...who am I to question it.

Grace was not from "the Main Line". She was considered new money. Her father felt discriminated against in many ways which is one reason he pushed her brother Kell so hard. It was a way to be accepted. Her father did not consider acting an acceptable career and was more than delighted when Rainier proposed. Grace knew very little French at the time of her marriage but learned it quickly. That is not to say that it didn't take her a while to feel comfortable speaking it in public. As for US High Schools you are correct about the languages but it varies. In private schools 3 years is required. If you do well you move to the advanced sections and take the SAT II in that language. If you don't then they suggest you take a year of a different language. The emphasis currently is on the ability to speak the language fairly fluently. In England many schools require multiple languages as part of their graduation requirement. As for Charlene, I don't understand why she hasn't made more of an effort to learn the language since she has been there close to three years.

 

[LadyS]

From a South African point of view, European languages in normal government schools are few and far between. Generally (and certainly in Charlene's age group) you had to take English and Afrikaans and as an elective you could take an African language like Zulu or Xhosa and occassionally German was offered.

Mostly private schools or the convents offer French but for a lot of people already taking two languages (which you had to pass to graduate) it wasn't important. (Unless you were going to live in Europe)

IMO and certainly if I was in her position I would have started learning French when I realised that the relationship is looking more serious.

Although I have read some posts that say she has been taking French lessons. (Maybe she isn't academically inclined and is finding it difficult)

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Jacqueline Bouvier grew up in a household where French was spoken exclusively at the dinner table.Her mother Janet had complete mastery of the language from her school days, and of course her father Jack Bouvier was descended from French immigrants.From what I have read of her life, she did not become really fluent until she spent her junior year at the Sorbonne.

I would think a Protestant princess would be unacceptable to Monagasques for several reasons...not the least of which the Constitution requires that the sovereign AND his/her spouse be of the Catholic Faith. Also many of Monaco's cultural events are centered around Catholicism such as the celebration of the Feast of St Devote, it's patroness.

 

[NGalitzine]

I would think a Protestant princess would be unacceptable to Monagasques for several reasons...not the least of which the Constitution requires that the sovereign AND his/her spouse be of the Catholic Faith. Also many of Monaco's cultural events are centered around Catholicism such as the celebration of the Feast of St Devote, it's patroness.

http://http://www.gouv.mc/devwww/ww...fe5f92f2efc1256f5b0054fa42fr?OpenDocument&3Fr

Really, where did you get that idea? The constitution mentions that RC is the State Religion but does not seem to specify that either the sovereign or the consort must be RC. I can see the assumption that a member of the Grimaldi dynasty would of course be RC but that does not necessarily mean they must marry a member or a new convert to RC. Caroline afterall is heiress presumptive to the throne and her spouse is most certainly not RC and neither is their only child Princess Alexandra. Should it become necessary for her to succeed I doubt if she would be barred from succession because her husband is Lutheran.

I do agree that there might be some expectation that a spouse would eventually convert, but that could happen after a few years and not necessarily in advance of a wedding. Conversion should afterall be a matter of choice and personal faith not somethng that is forced on anyone.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Thanks for the info NGalitzine but has there ever been a Protestant Prince or Princess of Monaco?

On the Principality's National Day she would sit in the Cathedral and not receive the Sacrament with her husband? She would be married outside of Mass? She would be exempt from receiving Communion with Albert at Catholic weddings and funerals? At important Feast days?

Do you really believe that this would be acceptable to the Monagasques?

You are right, conversion SHOULD be a matter of faith. But I would think that if Charlene cannot accept the faith of her husband, all his ancestors, and her future subjects she should hightail it back to South Africa and forget about being Princess of Monaco..she'd would not endear herself to them at all...especially being a foreigner as well.

The point is moot anyway...I have serious doubts that Albert intends to ever marry this young woman.

 

[Renata4711]

Excerpt from the Constitution of Monaco, 1962:

Section One: Article 9: La religion catholique, apostolique et romaine est religion d'Etat.
(Catholicism is State religion)



http://www.gouv.mc/devwww/wwwnew.nsf/1909$/036c62fe5f92f2efc1256f5b0054fa42fr?OpenDocument&3Fr

 

[stellam]

California Dreamin, I think Charlene should just hightail it back to South Africa period!

 

[hibou]

California Dreamin, I think Charlene should just hightail it back to South Africa period!

If she did, would he go to SA and beg for her to come back?

 

[NGalitzine]

Thanks for the info NGalitzine but has there ever been a Protestant Prince or Princess of Monaco?

On the Principality's National Day she would sit in the Cathedral and not receive the Sacrament with her husband? She would be married outside of Mass? She would be exempt from receiving Communion with Albert at Catholic weddings and funerals? At important Feast days?

Do you really believe that this would be acceptable to the Monagasques?

The Monagasques have seen their princely family marry in and out of the church, divorce and remarry, become pregnant out of wedlock,give birth without being married, run off with the circus, and father children out of marriage. At this point in time I think they would be happy just to see Albert happily settled and possibly produce new princely heirs.

As for the church, well some sort of dispensation would undoubtably be obtained. If nothing else the Grimaldi have traditionally been big donors to Peters Pense and money talks even at the Vatican.

There are other examples of mixed religious marriages in Europe. Maxima of The Netherlands remains RC while having married in a Protestant ceremony to The Prince Of Orange and has Protestant children. She is amongst the most popular members of the Dutch royal family and the future Queen. Also in the 20's the Protestant Princess Astrid of Sweden married the RC King Albert of the Belgians. It wasn't until some years after her marriage and children that she eventually converted. She was always popular in Belgium and died a much loved Queen.
The Monagasques, who are a minroity in their own country, are not as parochial as they were in the 50's so I really dont believe religion would be a show stopper.

 

[olga101]

You guys are really funny. I'm sure you-know-who is not ready for her to "hightail it" back to SA. Otherwise, if he ran/runs over there to court her, then why wouldn't he fly her back if it were needed?

I'm sure they're both having lots of fun. Who really knows ,they both might very well feel deeply about marital relationships and the philosophy involved. I don't think there is anywhere in print that Charlene expressed a desire for marriage.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Thanks NGalitzine, you make some very valid points about the umm...irregularities in the behaviors of the current Princely family in regard to their attitudes about morality and religion.

The example of the Netherlands is interesting. I don't think a big deal was made about Maxima not converting because that country has traditionally been very liberal. It did not matter to the people one way or another.

In traditionally Catholic countries I think it's a little different. In Spain for example King Juan Carlos reportedly insisted that his son's divorcee fiancee Letizia be "recathechized" before he would agree to her marriage to CP Felipe. She had to undergo a period of instruction and counseling from the Cardinal-Primate.

This is because Letizia had lapsed from the Church and married a Marxist. There were even some reports that she had declared herself an atheist. Even though Spain is not as religious as in the past, it was still considered important that the future Queen of Spain not present herself to her future subjects as an apostate.

Monaco has a rich thousand year history. It has traditionally enjoyed close ties with the Holy See. There has never been a non-Catholic Princess, and I can't see Albert making an exception for this young woman.

I could be wrong, I guess we'll have to wait and see....

I tend to agree with olga. I think Charlene would like to get married because she wants a family...but for now she is having a blast, obviously. She is still young and can afford to wait Albert out!

 

[hibou]

As to the must be Catholic part. There is a clause in the constitution that Ranier did put in about the "state" religion must be Catholic. Also consider this. A Catholic can get married in a Protestant church but a Protestant cannot get married in a Catholic church unless they convert. Also if a Catholic gets married in the Protestant church they cannot take communion during the service. Also the Protestant must take marriage counseling from the Catholic church and answer questions according to the Catholic faith. If the Protestant does not answer the questions according to the Catholic faith, then they will not sanction the marriage. At that point the Protestant might as well convert. So it's much easier for a Catholic to marry a Protestant in a Protestant church than a Protestant can to marry in a Catholic church.

My point about Albert going to get her in SA is does he love her and does he love her enough that if she walked out and went to SA would he care enough to personally go get her. Harry once went after Chelsy Davey. Would Albert do the same? If he does love her enough to do that why doesn't he marry her?

 

[Renata4711]

In countries like France or Italy, having a mistress (or several) is often seen as a status symbol. Various crowned heads and high level politicians come to mind.... Francois Mitterand, Silvio Berlusconi......

Albert enjoys the inofficial title of "Most eligible bachelor in the world" ..... so why would he want to give this up?

 

[NGalitzine]

As to the must be Catholic part. There is a clause in the constitution that Ranier did put in about the "state" religion must be Catholic. Also consider this. A Catholic can get married in a Protestant church but a Protestant cannot get married in a Catholic church unless they convert.

That must depend on the diocese because I can think of several friends and relations who are Anglican who have married Catholic women in Catholic ceremonies in Catholic churches. In at least one case the ceremony was performed by a RC bishop who was an uncle of the bride. They have all remained Anglican while their wives remain RC. The children seem to be of both faiths, bit of a mixed bag.

 

[hibou]

As to the must be Catholic part. There is a clause in the constitution that Ranier did put in about the "state" religion must be Catholic. Also consider this. A Catholic can get married in a Protestant church but a Protestant cannot get married in a Catholic church unless they convert.

quote]

That must depend on the diocese because I can think of several friends and relations who are Anglican who have married Catholic women in Catholic ceremonies in Catholic churches. In at least one case the ceremony was performed by a RC bishop who was an uncle of the bride. They have all remained Anglican while their wives remain RC. The children seem to be of both faiths, bit of a mixed bag.

Must be. In Philadelphia it's not possible, as far as I know, for a Protestant to marry in the Catholic church. I know at one point it was possible if the Protestant signed a document saying the kids would be raised Catholic so maybe that's how a Protestant can marry in the Catholic church. It is an interesting situation.

 

[sandsla]

I have known and been in weddings myself in a Catholic Church where the bride wasn't Catholic. I know that it used to be the case that they were meant to raise their kids Catholic, but I'm not sure that is even required now or that many follow it. I still think Albert would appreciate his wife converting to the Catholic faith and Charlene has been there a long time to not do it before they were to marry (IMO).

 

[sandsla]

What puzzles me is the fact that neither Grace nor Charlene seem to have learnt French in school. At least there would have been some foundation to build on.
As a teacher/tutor of French, I have sympathy with anyone who has to learn the language in order to earn a living or in their private life.

In Charlene's case I suspect that she mixes mainly with bilingual or trilingual people in Monaco. Still, it's no excuse for not learning French. This would enable her to be taken more seriously by ordinary Monégasques as well as members of the government or the Mairie.

The Protestant "problem" is not as bad as one thinks. If Albert were to marry Charlene or any other female Protestant, the marriage vows would not be said at the altar, but a step lower.

I agree languages are not so easy to learn for everyone, especially for people who are not emersed in the language with people around them, but I have heard stories from friends that faked their way to a year in France with zero language skills and were quite fluent after only a year there? And Grace did not have the time Charlene has had? Most people no matter who they are and what they are doing usually attempt to learn the language of a country they are living in and many times just briefly visiting?

Interesting, there's a step lower? I imagine she might very well settle for that. Although I think if Albert required it she would probably be willing to convert, if he didn't require it of her she may see it as an unnecessary requirement for herself?

Thanks for the info NGalitzine but has there ever been a Protestant Prince or Princess of Monaco?

On the Principality's National Day she would sit in the Cathedral and not receive the Sacrament with her husband? She would be married outside of Mass? She would be exempt from receiving Communion with Albert at Catholic weddings and funerals? At important Feast days?

Do you really believe that this would be acceptable to the Monagasques?

You are right, conversion SHOULD be a matter of faith. But I would think that if Charlene cannot accept the faith of her husband, all his ancestors, and her future subjects she should hightail it back to South Africa and forget about being Princess of Monaco..she'd would not endear herself to them at all...especially being a foreigner as well.

The point is moot anyway...I have serious doubts that Albert intends to ever marry this young woman.

Can you believe it --my thoughts exactly. Although I'm not so sure Charlene worries about anyone else's thoughts or the need to endear herself to anyone other than Albert?

 

[MelinaB.]

I was wondering about that couple:does anyone think that,if they finally get married,they probably won't be able to produce children?Just for the record:I hope they can.

 

[Nathalie Cox]

Well Charlene is in her thirties, i think she's young enough to produce an heir. I have two aunts who gave birth one at 38 and the other one at 45! so, nothing is impossible...except for Albert to get married just joking...

 

[MelinaB.]

It was a good one,Nathalie!And what about him?He "can"?

 

[Renata4711]

Why should they give up their freedom(s) and action-packed lives, just so that they can produce an heir?

 

[Angeline]

Well Charlene is in her thirties, i think she's young enough to produce an heir. I have two aunts who gave birth one at 38 and the other one at 45! so, nothing is impossible...except for Albert to get married just joking...

They will probably check C-W's ability to reproduce as they do with most women who will be "crown princesses" as this would defeat the purpose of marriage in the monarchy. Gisele Pascale was said to NOT be able to have children and so after 6 yrs of living together with her, Pr Rainier had to let her go as a matter of state. He was reportedly quite shocked years later when she had a child with someone else. I am sure P-A will do his due diligence regarding a bride whether in love or not.

 

[Nathalie Cox]

It must have been a shock to Rainier to discover that Gisele actually could have heirs...
anyway, in my opinion it's a little bit cruel to check the woman's ability to reproduce, of course i can understand it being this in a future crown princess, i just wonder how the woman feels while going through this.
And about Albert ability's to reproduce...well, he is not in his 30's anymore but he is still a man and i think he can still have children, is just not that sure because he is 50-51, but again, there a lot of men who are fathers elderly.

 

[Lakshmi]

There is no confirmation that any of current crown princesses was checked "for ability to produce children". And I don't think it ever happened. As for Gisele, the whole rumor about her not able to have children, it was for purpose created by Pss Antoinette, when she was demanding that her kids would be included in succession line. Rainer left Gisele because father Tucker advised him she was not wife material. Rainer lived with Gisele in cohabitation, unacceptable thing in 1950s. Father Tucker helped Rainer to meet Grace Kelly.
If Albert is going to marry Charlene I highly doubt they will check her fertility.

 

[goody7058]

They don't do that anymore, Gisele was PR plaything that it. PA whoever he marry will have to produce a heir.

 

[Empress]

Well, I think that we are forgetting that there are heirs to the throne in Carolines Children. Whatever the case may be, I don't think much of his playboy ways.

 

[Renata4711]

Surely he is less of a playboy nowadays - seems to be a "one woman man" - and knuckling down to being a statesman....