Press Reports about Carl Philip and Sofia Hellqvist, Part 2: April 2012 - June 2014

[blauerengel]

I so much hope this marriage will not happen.

It seems like CP might very well get a "right-hand" role for Victoria in the future - which means he probably will keep his title upon marrying a commoner.

Just making a Google photo search on her name says everything - and it doesn't even show the topless photo of her, her nipples aroused, always used by the Danish tabloids.

I'm really not into the habit of Princess bashing at all. I just think it degrades the whole concept of modern royalty if Sofia would become a HRH.

How could dignified Silvia and Victoria approve of such a marriage...

While I agree with your statements I say if they are really really in love and have a good relationship they should be allowed to marry-look what happened when Charles was denied to marry Camilla in the first way because she was not attractive and appropriate for the heir?
Sofia and CP may marry but with her only as "Prince consort",no royal title.If she really loves him that should not matter-all you need is love!-and maybe later she will earn the royal title! Prince Philipp didn´t get a big title when he married Elizabeth II,only later he was decorated with orders and honorary titles.That should be the way for Sofia too-if they are 100% sure about their love they can tie the knot and later she will get the titles.

 

[Roslyn]

Altar or not, she cannot erase her past...

If she makes it to the altar with Carl Philip, I doubt she'll be worrying about her past, and there'll be no point in anyone else fretting about it, either.

ETA And, as blauerengel has pointed out, she will have the opportunity to prove herself and earn a royal style and/or title.

 

[Elektra]

If she takes that opportunity seriously and not for publicity to sell herself as a suitable royal wife, then good for her. And good for Sweden.
But it's like her new clothes: she may look different wearing them, but that does not change anything about her character.Or her past, from that matter.

 

[HRHHermione]

While I agree with your statements I say if they are really really in love and have a good relationship they should be allowed to marry-look what happened when Charles was denied to marry Camilla in the first way because she was not attractive and appropriate for the heir?
Sofia and CP may marry but with her only as "Prince consort",no royal title.If she really loves him that should not matter-all you need is love!-and maybe later she will earn the royal title! Prince Philipp didn´t get a big title when he married Elizabeth II,only later he was decorated with orders and honorary titles.That should be the way for Sofia too-if they are 100% sure about their love they can tie the knot and later she will get the titles.

Except there is no legal reason to deny Sofia the style that a woman marrying into the royal family would normally obtain. And she wouldn't be a "princess consort" anyway. It was completely different with Charles and Camilla- their divorces had to factor in. It was also different with Prince Phillip, since he was marrying a royal woman in a country that doesn't practice equal primogeniture. And still, he was made a royal duke, which is the title that all other British royals obtain upon their wedding- he was treated the same as Prince William was in that regard.

 

[blauerengel]

Except there is no legal reason to deny Sofia the style that a woman marrying into the royal family would normally obtain. And she wouldn't be a "princess consort" anyway. It was completely different with Charles and Camilla- their divorces had to factor in. It was also different with Prince Phillip, since he was marrying a royal woman in a country that doesn't practice equal primogeniture. And still, he was made a royal duke, which is the title that all other British royals obtain upon their wedding- he was treated the same as Prince William was in that regard.

That´s right-there is no LEGAL reason to deny her the title,but as you see in this thread Sophia is raising a lot of eyebrows and her past is a problem for many ppl-so giving her no titles when she gets married is a very good compromise for everybody & she can still receive royal titles and honorary degrees afterwards.

If she really loves CP-the man and not the Prince,the fame or the attention of the press she will not mind receiving no title at all.

The Swedish RF could do similiar to the Oranjes in Mabel´s case:
Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Since her marriage, Mabel Wisse Smit may use the courtesy titles of Princess of Orange-Nassau, Countess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs. Van Amsberg. She was not legally created a princess, but received courtesy titles due to her marriage, since it is customary for wives of members of the royal family to take the titles of their husbands. It was decided that their children each would receive the titles of Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg.

They don´t need to exclude Carl-Philipp from the Royal family but give Sofia a lesser title for the start.

 

[Charlotte_Aster]

how about the route they were intending to go with Jonas? Just the ducal title and no princess. It would also suit the whole gender equality issue.

 

[HRHHermione]

That´s right-there is no LEGAL reason to deny her the title,but as you see in this thread Sophia is raising a lot of eyebrows and her past is a problem for many ppl-so giving her no titles when she gets married is a very good compromise for everybody & she can still receive royal titles and honorary degrees afterwards.

If she really loves CP-the man and not the Prince,the fame or the attention of the press she will not mind receiving no title at all.

The Swedish RF could do similiar to the Oranjes in Mabel´s case:
Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Since her marriage, Mabel Wisse Smit may use the courtesy titles of Princess of Orange-Nassau, Countess of Orange-Nassau, Mrs. Van Amsberg. She was not legally created a princess, but received courtesy titles due to her marriage, since it is customary for wives of members of the royal family to take the titles of their husbands. It was decided that their children each would receive the titles of Count or Countess of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer or Jonkvrouw van Amsberg.

They don´t need to exclude Carl-Philipp from the Royal family but give Sofia a lesser title for the start.

The Swedish Royal Family is not obligated to come up with a compromise that pleases members of the Royal Forums. I'd think you maybe had a point if there was widespread dislike of her throughout Sweden and a lot of opposition to her becoming a princess, but there doesn't seem to be.

The reason there was a compromise with the Oranjes is because Prince Friso decided to marry without the approval of the government. There was a legal reason to deny Mabel a title.

And whether she cares about the title is irrelevant- if she should she marry Carl Philip, she should be treated as any other woman marrying Carl Philip would be treated.

 

[blauerengel]

The Swedish Royal Family is not obligated to come up with a compromise that pleases members of the Royal Forums. I'd think you maybe had a point if there was widespread dislike of her throughout Sweden and a lot of opposition to her becoming a princess, but there doesn't seem to be.

The reason there was a compromise with the Oranjes is because Prince Friso decided to marry without the approval of the government. There was a legal reason to deny Mabel a title.

And whether she cares about the title is irrelevant- if she should she marry Carl Philip, she should be treated as any other woman marrying Carl Philip would be treated.

The members of TRF represent a part of the general society and EVERY European royal family needs to care for the public opinion unless they want to be abolished

 

[HRHHermione]

The members of TRF represent a part of the general society and EVERY European royal family needs to care for the public opinion unless they want to be abolished

The members of the Royal Forums represent a very small slice of the population, and are located internationally and not concentrated in Sweden. The Swedish Royal Family has an obligation to the Swedish people, not to public opinion outside of Sweden, especially on something as trivial as who marries the (for now) third in line to the throne.

I haven't seen any evidence that there's great concern in Sweden about this relationship or that this marriage would endanger the monarchy.

 

[Marengo]

You are correct, the legal base for not allowing princess Mabel the title of princess of The Netherlands is different. In Sweden the government doesn't need to give permission to a wedding of a royal AFAIK.

Perhaps the situation in Luxembourg is more useful, princess Tessy originally started as 'plain' Mrs. de Nassau when she married prince Louis in 2006. Though three years later the Grand Duke made her a princess of Luxembourg with the style of HRH by proclamation.

 

[blauerengel]

Thank you,Marengo-Tessy´s example is better for Sophia´s case!
I don´t deny anyone the right to marry the love of their life, but certain standards should be approved for getting a honorary title because otherwise it devalues the whole Royal family if everyone is accpeted.
It is like a university degree-if everybody no matter how hard they work or if the learn at all-receive it, nobody would respect the univeryity title anymore or degrees from that special university that is giving title without any work required!

 

[HRHHermione]

You are correct, the legal base for not allowing princess Mabel the title of princess of The Netherlands is different. In Sweden the government doesn't need to give permission to a wedding of a royal AFAIK.

Perhaps the situation in Luxembourg is more useful, princess Tessy originally started as 'plain' Mrs. de Nassau when she married prince Louis in 2006. Though three years later the Grand Duke made her a princess of Luxembourg by proclamation.

But wasn't that also due to the decision of Prince Louis to renounce his succession rights and those of their children due to the fact that she had their first child outside of the marriage?

There may not have been a legal reason for it, but it was following a precedent set in the family before.

I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but I just don't see any reason that would justify Sofia not being treated like any other woman marrying into the family.

 

[SLV]

Perhaps the situation in Luxembourg is more useful, princess Tessy originally started as 'plain' Mrs. de Nassau when she married prince Louis in 2006. Though three years later the Grand Duke made her a princess of Luxembourg with the style of HRH by proclamation.

Not sure if we can compare these situations either. Tessy and her prince 'had' to get married because she got pregnant. And as such it would have been very reasonable to be sceptical about the future of that marriage. This is not the case with our Swedish couple.

 

[HRHHermione]

Thank you,Marengo-Tessy´s example is better for Sophia´s case!
I don´t deny anyone the right to marry the love of their life, but certain standards should be approved for getting a honorary title because otherwise it devalues the whole Royal family if everyone is accpeted.
!

The royals themselves did not have to do anything to earn their titles. They were born into them. We accept this about them.

As far as I'm concerned, it should be the same with people who marry in. If they're loved and accepted by the family, that's really all that's required. Royalty is not a meritocracy.

 

[blauerengel]

Well,we won´t find any woman who has a 100% similiar background like Sophia and I will repeat that I don´t care about her past as long as she makes up for it by being a dutiful princess and really loves the Prince-what I am afraid is that she is an attention-seeker and chose Carl-Philipp for the wrong reasons and not for love...

But we don´t know what is truly going on in their minds and I am happy that she chose to alter her outfits to more demure,elegant clothes that are suitable for a Princess.

Aristocracy is a word dervied from "aristoi"= the best-meaning top of the crop- so they should not allow everybody in their exclusive circles.
If you are born into nobility it´s fine and I could think of many royals who don´t behave very noble or regal-but they are born royals...

If she loves CP-the man- she has my approval,she will need to work hard to be accepted but with time she will get the credit she deserves and everyone will see the qualities that she posesses and that made CP fall in love with her.

 

[Marengo]

As I stated earlier in this thread, I think there are very good reasons to be sceptical about Sofia Hellqvist, much more so than in the case of Princess Tessy. But indeed, technically there is no basis for giving her any other style/title that any more suitable spouse of CP would have. And I am sure that the couple will not be forced to renounce any succession rights or to give up any titles.

But it is hard to swallow for many. IMHO Sofia is by far the most unsuitable person to be marrying into a reigning royal since Magda Lupescu perhaps. Her entry into the RF makes the institute look like a joke which serves the same purpose as does Big Brother, Paradise Hotel and other reality programmes. And again, I don't mind her past actions all that much if she would have shown any real signs of wanting to change her life. But instead, her total lack of discretion seems to say the opposite. That she usually looks like the cat who ate the canary whenever she is with the RF, isn't too redeeming either. Though I will admit that that impression may be tainted by my already existing objections to her. Anyway she will have time enough to prove us wrong and let's hope that she will.

 

[Dman]

I'm glad that Prince Carl Philip will marry for love and not allow outside judgement dictate who's suitable enough for him to marry. The Swedish Monarchy is in no danger if Sofia is to marry Carl Philip. I think if the royals welcome her with open arms, then everyone will just have to deal with it.

People can choose to focus on the past but these folks are moving on.

 

[Nordic]

I think if the royals welcome her with open arms, then everyone will just have to deal with it.

How do you know that the royals welcome her with open arms and not just tolerate the situation?

 

[Dman]

From what I see, the royal family seem to really like Sofia and enjoy her company. Carl Philip's sisters seem to enjoy having her around and The King & Queen have even vacationed with Sofia. I don't see them tossing her into the lions den for what she may have done in the past.

I think it's best to take Carl Philip's feelings into consideration. Carl Philip seem to really love Sofia and Sofia seem to really love Carl Philip. In reality, I think their love and friendship is all that matters. If they decide to take the next step, I send them all my best wishes.

 

[muriel]

As I stated earlier in this thread, I think there are very good reasons to be sceptical about Sofia Hellqvist, much more so than in the case of Princess Tessy. But indeed, technically there is no basis for giving her any other style/title that any more suitable spouse of CP would have. And I am sure that the couple will not be forced to renounce any succession rights or to give up any titles.

But it is hard to swallow for many. IMHO Sofia is by far the most unsuitable person to be marrying into a reigning royal since Marda Lupescu perhaps. And again, I don't mind her past actions all that much if she would have shown any real signs of wanting to change her life. But instead, her total lack of discretion seems to say the opposite. But she will have time enough to prove us wrong.

My sense is that the paths are being cleared for a royal engagement at the appropriate juncture. The way Sophia has been part of the royal family at very public events (funeral of Lillian, christening of Estelle) seems to suggest that the King and Queen have accepted the position, and seem to be willing to accept her as a member of the familyu

 

[Meraude]

You are correct, the legal base for not allowing princess Mabel the title of princess of The Netherlands is different. In Sweden the government doesn't need to give permission to a wedding of a royal AFAIK.

Wrong, the Swedish government have to give its consent for a member of the royal family to marry if he/she wants to stay in the Order of Succession, according to the stipulations in the Swedish Act of Succession, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Act_of_Succession

As for what title the spouse (or child) of a member of the royal family will have, it is something the monarch will decide, it's not that the spouse of a prince automatically becomes an HRH and princess of Sweden. So if the king really wants to be "För Sverige i tiden" (For Sweden - With the Times) like the royal motto he once chose, he shouldn't chose to give titles of different status to the spouses of his younger children, depending on the sex of the royal spouse, nor should there be a difference in the title and status of future children.

 

[KitKat2006]

As for what title the spouse (or child) of a member of the royal family will have, it is something the monarch will decide, it's not that the spouse of a prince automatically becomes an HRH and princess of Sweden. So if the king really wants to be "För Sverige i tiden" (For Sweden - With the Times) like the royal motto he once chose, he shouldn't chose to give titles of different status to the spouses of his younger children, depending on the sex of the royal spouse, nor should there be a difference in the title and status of future children.

I've followed this "Title or no title for Sofia"-discussion for a while now. And I've always wondered why no-one ever arguments with the most obvicious argument. It's not the royal family that denies Chris a title but only himself by choosing to keep his american citizenship. Because you can't be a Prince of Sweden when your not a Swede yourself. Or a duke of a dukedom in a country you're not citizen of. It's as simple as that.

Sofia on the other hand is swedish citizen. So why should she be denied a title? Just because another person marrying into the family decides against it? If the royal family decides she doesn't deserve a title if she really marries Carl Philip just because Chris doesn't get one now, THEN they're handling things differently. Because Jonas (as a swedish citizen) would have had a title.

It's not Sofias fault that Chris decided on staying american citizen and thus not being able to recieve a title. You all should start to think more about this fact.

 

[blauerengel]

Sofia on the other hand is swedish citizen. So why should she be denied a title? Just because another person marrying into the family decides against it? If the royal family decides she doesn't deserve a title if she really marries Carl Philip just because Chris doesn't get one now, THEN they're handling things differently. Because Jonas (as a swedish citizen) would have had a title.

It's not Sofias fault that Chris decided on staying american citizen and thus not being able to recieve a title. You all should start to think more about this fact.

Thank you for your input & giving us your version of the story,but I think you may have missed a few details-on the last few pages we were not talking about wheter Sofia should not get a title because Chris doesn´t get one by his choice (very smart IMO,shows that he is a very clever man) but because of her past.
She may get a lesser title than Princess,but right now the title and wheter she will get one/which one is not the most important question.

The title doesn´t have anything to do with nationality-royals of the past have always strengthend alliances with other countries by exchanging brides and grooms to other Royal families-and from modern day we have Tasmanian CP Mary and Argentinian CP Maxima or also German Queen Silvia who received a title with no problems.IF Chris wanted to have a title he would have got one,but obviously he doesn´t care about such superficial things and therefore decided against it.

 

[KitKat2006]

Thank you for your input & giving us your version of the story,but I think you may have missed a few details-on the last few pages we were not talking about wheter Sofia should not get a title because Chris doesn´t get one by his choice (very smart IMO,shows that he is a very clever man) but because of her past.

I disagree here. There was a lot of talk that Sofia shouldn't be given a title because Chris also doesn't get one now and it would not be fair if he gets none when she gets one because of gender equality.

Yes, there was also talk about her past, but that was not the main argument 5, 6, 7 pages ago. The main argument was gender equality which is not the right argument IMO.

 

[grevinnan]

The members of TRF represent a part of the general society and EVERY European royal family needs to care for the public opinion unless they want to be abolished

If public opinion were to be so important every royal house would be gone by now. We have seen a king abdicate in order to marry a divorcee, naked photos from Las Vegas, a current king with illegitimate children, a current king living a double life for most of his married life, a queen and head of the Church of England with three out of four children divorced. One can go on and on. Being born into and being part of a royal family is no guarantee for integrity and good judgement. Sweden just buried a very loved and respected member of the royal family that met her prince while being a nightclub hostess/model/actess, hardly respectable professions for a future princess, and then being supported by him and living with him without being married through the 40's, 50's, 60's and into the 70's. Hardly times when respectable royals and aristocrats lived in "sin". Sofia made a very unfortunate mistake in her young days but she is hardly alone in this. Other than the photos that have surfaced there has been no other news of a questionable lifestyle. Swedes have a big heart for friends, family and their royals and any less then perfect decisions they may make. Sofia will be welcomed as Carl Philip's choice and perhaps time for the rest to let go.

 

[Dman]

I agree, it's time for people to let that stuff go.

 

[Dman]

I say let Prince Carl Philip be happy. It seems like his family is happy that he's happy. That's all that matters.

 

[Lee-Z]

The reason there was a compromise with the Oranjes is because Prince Friso decided to marry without the approval of the government. There was a legal reason to deny Mabel a title.

if CP and Sofia ever do what Friso and Mabel did, 'provide incomplete and false information' of her past, this thread will explode
The dutch government made clear they would never approve of the marriage after that and he chose marriage and lost his place in succession...

imo, i know a lot of people dislike Sofia, but their situation is not *that* bad...

 

[peanutbutterfly]

If he wants her and she wants him, well they should be together. Im not a Sophia fan but I do believe that this relatiinship must run its course. If that means marriage then so be it. Hopefully they'll stop giving interviews once it happens.

 

[Dman]

If they become officially engaged, I'm guessing they will give an interview. These days the royals now give interviews everynow and then.