Order of Precedence 1: Ending 2022

[Skippyboo]

If everybody had to bow/curtsy to each other, the Christmas family get together before the Queen goes to Sandringham would take forever.


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[royal rob]

If everybody had to bow/curtsy to each other, the Christmas family get together before the Queen goes to Sandringham would take forever.


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Would love to see video of that speeded up and put to Benny Hill music.


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[Molly2101]

There are various orders of precedence (OofP) for various functions.
There are private OofP and public OofP.

From the British Monachy website:

"Precedence determines the seniority of members of the Royal Family at official events and is influenced by a variety of laws, and by custom and tradition. Precedence among members of the Royal Family at private events is a matter for The Queen's discretion."

One good example where you might see this is at a commemorative church service.
Usually, the Royal Family proceeds into the church in reverse OofP.

Therefore, they would enter as follows:

The children of Princess Alexandra of Kent
Princess Alexandra
The children of Prince and Princess Michael of Kent
Prince and Princess Michael of Kent
The children of Duke and Duchess of Kent
The Duke and Duchess of Kent
The children of Duke and Duchess of Gloucester
The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester
The Children of Sarah Armstrong-Jones and Daniel Chatto
Sarah Armstrong-Jones and Daniel Chatto
The children of Lord and Lady Linley
Lord and Lady Linley
The children of The Princess Royal
The Princess Royal and Vice-Admiral Sir Timothy Laurence
The children of Earl and Countess of Wessex
The Earl and Countess of Wessex
The children of Duke of York
The Duke of York
Prince Henry of Wales
The Duck and Duchess of Cambridge
The Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall
HM The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh

(I have not included everyone grand-kids etc. but I think you get the idea)

This also may change given that there is no longer a preference to the male line.

This order may also get mixed up if, for example, there was no lining-up of the family before they proceed to their seats. You may get the Kents and Gloucesters arriving together or Princess Alexandra arriving later - the more "minor" royals would not wait to take their seats if they were "out of order".

The "senior" royals do try to get it right as that is part of their job.

Even the Queen will "forgo" her precedence for weddings (where the bride comes in last) and often for funerals where the principal mourners are given preference.

PS when they leave the church by OofP from top down.

One thing that confused me was at the Royal wedding when Zara, Peter and their other halves arrived with the Linley's and co. and not with Anne and Tim. I understand they are not HRH, however during the Diamond Jubilee service Louise arrived with her parents, whereas Zara and Peter arrived before their parents. It was perhaps due to the 6 of them not fitting in the car for both occasions but I am sure if precedence were being followed "properly" then another car should have been used for the Phillips/Tindalls?

Does Louise (and James when he comes) take their precedence from their parents? If so, when they turn 18 will they be like Zara and Peter and arrive with the non-titled royals?

 

[Skippyboo]

Order of Precedence

For WK's wedding, most of the family were on the mini buses to the Abbey including Peter and Autumn, Zara and Mike, David, Serena and Charles and the Chattos. Andrew with his girls, Ed and Sophie, Anne and Tim came in a 3 car convoy, then Charles and Camilla and then Queen and Philip. Since Louise and Margarita were bridesmaids they came separately with the other little kids and Pippa.

Royal Wedding day probably maxed out the Royal mews car wise. There were 8 different Royal cars between using one for Bride , Groom, her mum and brother, his Royal aunts and uncles, grandparents and father and stepmother. Bea and Eugenie could go in Andrew's car but not the 4 from Anne's family

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[LeDerius]

This might seem weird and i don't know if its been answered anywhere, but what happens if all the members of the Royal Family are present? Do husbands and wives just stand next to their partner and whoever was born into the family determines their placing in line?

This is what the order of precedence is for. If all the family is together, then automatically spouses stand together in their places in precedence.

 

[HisLegendaryMajest]

who decides which members of the royal family attend foreign events such as other royal weddings? Does the Order of Precedence dictate what order people will get offered the position of representing the Queen and they decide if they want to go or pass on the opportunity?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

who decides which members of the royal family attend foreign events such as other royal weddings? Does the Order of Precedence dictate what order people will get offered the position of representing the Queen and they decide if they want to go or pass on the opportunity?

At the Investiture of King Willem-Alexander in Amsterdam we saw a large group of "equals" and usually we would say: HIH comes before HRH. And then HRH comes before HSH. Inside these three "levels" the anciennity of the Reign is leading. This would lead to the following list:

HIH 1989
The Crown Prince of Japan (Naruhito)
The Crown Princess of Japan (Masako)

HRH 1946
The Crown Prince of Thailand (Maha Vajiralonkorn)
Princess Sirindhorn of Thailand (his sister)

HRH 1952
The Prince of Wales (Charles)
The Duchess of Cornwall (Camilla)

HRH 1972
The Crown Prince of Denmark (Frederik)
The Crown Princess of Denmark (Mary)

HRH 1973
The Crown Princess of Sweden (Victoria)
Prince Daniel of Sweden, Duke of Västergotland

HRH 1975
The Prince of Asturias (Felipe)
The Princess of Asturias (Letizia)

HRH 1989
The Crown Prince of Japan (Naruhito)
The Crown Princess of Japan (Masako)

HRH 1991
The Crown Prince of Norway (Haakon Magnus)
The Crown Princess of Norway (Mette-Marit)

HRH 1993
The Duke of Brabant (Philippe)
The Duchess of Brabant (Mathilde)

HRH 2000
The Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxembourg (Guillaume)
The Hereditary Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg (Stéphanie)

HSH 1989
The Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein (Aloïs)
The Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein (Sophie)

Etc. Etc. (HSH The Prince of Monaco ranked before them, HRH The Princess Lalla Salma of Morocco ranked before them too, like The Sheikha Mozah, etc.)

In reality we saw at the Investiture that more or less the Order of Precedence is followed but that the royals themselves handle it relaxed. Of course the Crown Prince of Thailand is near the Prince of Wales, but in Amsterdam it was visible they were relaxed whether Maha Vajiralongkorn has to walk before or after Charles. Also Felipe (1975) really could not care less if he came before or after Victoria (1973). So there was a relaxed attitude to it and it worked wonders. No rigid policy in Amsterdam. I have the idea, looking at the wedding of William and Catherine, that this rigidness has also left the British Court. Also there is some relaxed attitude as well.

 

[padams2359]

When it is just the women, per QE2, doesn't the PR come after the queen, and ahead of the male line nieces?

 

[HisLegendaryMajest]

At the Investiture of King Willem-Alexander in Amsterdam we saw a large group of "equals" and usually we would say: HIH comes before HRH. And then HRH comes before HSH. Inside these three "levels" the anciennity of the Reign is leading. This would lead to the following list:

HIH 1989
The Crown Prince of Japan (Naruhito)
The Crown Princess of Japan (Masako)

HRH 1946
The Crown Prince of Thailand (Maha Vajiralonkorn)
Princess Sirindhorn of Thailand (his sister)

HRH 1952
The Prince of Wales (Charles)
The Duchess of Cornwall (Camilla)

HRH 1972
The Crown Prince of Denmark (Frederik)
The Crown Princess of Denmark (Mary)

HRH 1973
The Crown Princess of Sweden (Victoria)
Prince Daniel of Sweden, Duke of Västergotland

HRH 1975
The Prince of Asturias (Felipe)
The Princess of Asturias (Letizia)

HRH 1989
The Crown Prince of Japan (Naruhito)
The Crown Princess of Japan (Masako)

HRH 1991
The Crown Prince of Norway (Haakon Magnus)
The Crown Princess of Norway (Mette-Marit)

HRH 1993
The Duke of Brabant (Philippe)
The Duchess of Brabant (Mathilde)

HRH 2000
The Hereditary Grand-Duke of Luxembourg (Guillaume)
The Hereditary Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg (Stéphanie)

HSH 1989
The Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein (Aloïs)
The Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein (Sophie)

Etc. Etc. (HSH The Prince of Monaco ranked before them, HRH The Princess Lalla Salma of Morocco ranked before them too, like The Sheikha Mozah, etc.)

In reality we saw at the Investiture that more or less the Order of Precedence is followed but that the royals themselves handle it relaxed. Of course the Crown Prince of Thailand is near the Prince of Wales, but in Amsterdam it was visible they were relaxed whether Maha Vajiralongkorn has to walk before or after Charles. Also Felipe (1975) really could not care less if he came before or after Victoria (1973). So there was a relaxed attitude to it and it worked wonders. No rigid policy in Amsterdam. I have the idea, looking at the wedding of William and Catherine, that this rigidness has also left the British Court. Also there is some relaxed attitude as well.

Wow thanks for that.

What i sort of meant was, say for example i'm a Crown Prince of a certain country, out of courtesy i have to invite most of the royal families in the world to attend. using the British Royal family as an example, the invitation goes to the Queen to attend as she is monarch, but due to her age she won't make the trip and sends someone to represent her, who gets chosen and how does the decision get made?

 

[Bryce]

No doubt it may depend on the circumstances of the event, but I think you would be right. The Princess Royal would come before Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie for example as she is the daughter of the monarch (vs. granddaughter) and the girls elder. I think that the royal family are quite traditional and would follow good manners over anything else.

 

[tommy100]

I guess out of courtesy most other royal houses would send their own crown prince/princesses, those with close links to the Royal House issuing the invite might also be represented by the King/Queen. If the King or Queen and heir couldn't attend all sorts of possibilities are opened. It may be that in the example you give, QEII might ask Prince Andrew to represent her or Charles may ask William or Harry to represent him and thus the Queen or both, Andrew representing the Queen, William or Harry representing Charles. It really all would depend on the event and its importance. If it was a family event the monarch might send a lesser royal than the Crown Prince/Princess if they have particularly close ties to the royals concerned. For example to King Harold and Queen Sonja's 70th birthday celebrations Princess Anne and Prince Edward represented the BRF, most likely as Anne is Haakon's godmother so has a personal link to the Norwegian Royals and Edward is friendly with Haakon and Martha Louise. Although it might have been expected for Charles to represent QEII actually Edward and Anne were probably more appropriate given their ties to the Norwegian Royals.

 

[Osipi]

Wow thanks for that.

What i sort of meant was, say for example i'm a Crown Prince of a certain country, out of courtesy i have to invite most of the royal families in the world to attend. using the British Royal family as an example, the invitation goes to the Queen to attend as she is monarch, but due to her age she won't make the trip and sends someone to represent her, who gets chosen and how does the decision get made?

As it would be an event that the Queen (or actually the UK) has been invited to attend, the Queen herself decides who will represent her. All of these types of events are well planned ahead of time and are approved by the Queen. I believe it is part and parcel of what is in the Queen's red boxes that she does every day without fail except for Christmas Day and Easter Day I believe.

With the event scheduled quite a bit in the future when planning these occasions, it is easier for HM to consult with the other members of the family and work around daily planners to figure out who is available and who would be best representing the Queen. For royal weddings outside of the UK, Edward and Sophie are the usual go to couple for these type of events. Harry may be best suited for a military event or one with wounded service personnel and Kate may be the go to for things involving children.

The BRF doesn't do things by half measures or at the last minute. From what I've heard, an official event with someone as a representative of the Queen are booked sometimes a year in advance.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Order of Precedence (heads of state, then consorts to a head of state, then Imperial Highnesses, then Royal Highnesses ranked according anciennity), the picture shows it all:

Picture

His Serene Highess The Prince of Monaco (a head of state)
Her Royal Highness The Princess Lalla Salma of Morocco (consort since 1999)
Her Highness The Sheikha Mozah (consort since 1995)
Their Imperial Highnesses The Crown Prince of Japan and Princess Masako
Their Royal Highnesses The Crown Prince of Thailand and Princess Sirindhorn (1948)
Their Royal Highnesses The Prince of Wales and The Duchess of Cornwall (1952)
Their Royal Highnesses The Crown Prince and -Princess of Brunei (1968)

Behind them:

Their Royal Highnesses The Crown Prince and -Princess of Denmark (1972)
Their Royal Highnesses The Crown Princess of Sweden and Prince Daniel (1973)
Their Royal Highnesses The Prince and Princess of Asturias (1975)
His Serene Highness The Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein and Her Royal Highness Princess Sophie (1989)
Their Royal Highnesses The Crown Prince and -Princess of Norway (1991)
Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of Brabant (1993)

Behind them:

Their Royal Highnesses Prince Hassan of Jordan (Crown Prince between 1965-1999) and Princess Sarvath
Their Royal Highnesses The Hereditary Grand Duke and -Duchess of Luxembourg (2000)

Etc.

 

[LeDerius]

Wow thanks for that.

What i sort of meant was, say for example i'm a Crown Prince of a certain country, out of courtesy i have to invite most of the royal families in the world to attend. using the British Royal family as an example, the invitation goes to the Queen to attend as she is monarch, but due to her age she won't make the trip and sends someone to represent her, who gets chosen and how does the decision get made?

Actually, I think it works reverse most of the time. The Queen sends lesser royals like the Earl and Countess of Wessex most of the time to foreign events. For high ranking events like crownings, crowned heads don't attend so you send one of the most high ranking royals you have.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

There is an idea that the Queen sends the Earl and Countess of Wessex, but the Prince of Wales has attended quite a few royal events:

Investiture of The King of the Netherlands in Amsterdam (2013)
Wedding of the Prince of Asturias (2004)
State Funeral of Prince Claus of the Netherlands in Delft (2002)
Wedding of the Prince of Orange in Amsterdam (2002)
Wedding of the Crown Prince of Norway in Oslo (2001)
State Funeral of Queen Ingrid of Denmark (2000)
Wedding of the Duke of Brabant in Brussels (1999)
And some more.

So now and then the Duke of Edinburgh did attend, for an example the State Funerals of Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard, the 60th Birthday of Queen Margrethe. So now and then the Duke of York did attend, for an example the State Funeral of Grand-Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte of Luxembourg. So now and then the Earl of Wessex did attend, for an example the weddings of Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden and of Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark. Still the Prince of Wales clearly does the bulk of continental gatherings.

 

[Molly2101]

The discussion about sending Edward and Sophie to all the royal weddings always crops up. I don't think it's got much to do with precedence; rather it's probably more to do with Edward being the only child of the current British monarch who is closest in age with other monarch's children/heirs. The Wessex's developed friendships with the other royals and you can see them chatting to the other royals at these weddings. They have things in common I imagine and they all have children the same age. They became friends with these other royals and get invited to things as friends, not as royals. For example, Willem-Alexander's 40th birthday and Martha-Louise's 40th birthday. They also stayed with Mary and Frederik for Prince Nikolai's confirmation (of whom Edward is godfather), even though I am sure Marie and Joachim could have provided a room for them.

The wedding of Sofia and Carl-Philip is likely the last one Edward and Sophie will attend. The future weddings will be attended by William and Catherine or possible Harry and his spouse. I don't think we'll hear the same negative responses if Harry was to go when he is the youngest child of the Monarch, which is exactly what Edward is.

I think for certain things the Queen knows she needs to send a higher representative - Willem's investiture being a prime example. For other things though, sending her son and his wife is not a bad move.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Perhaps I am wrong, but when Diana lost her HRH didn't she have to curtsy to the lesser royals like Princess Michael?

If so, it would seem that giving birth to a future monarch doesn't give a person precedence, apart from the marriage.

A curtsey is never an obligation, always an option. I have never seen the Princesses curtsying to each other. I have seen them curtseying to the Queen, to the Queen-Mother and to other Sovereigns. I don't know if Diana has met Marie-Christine (Princess Michael) after the divorce, but most likely it would have been two kisses on the cheek. No curtsey. The two seem(ed) too down-to-earth and goodnatured for that stuff.

 

[maria-olivia]

in Sweden The bowing of Crown Princes Haakon and Frederick for Queen Mathilde was more a joke....

 

[MARG]

Do you have a photo Maria-Olivia? If so I'd love to see it.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I can not even imagine that The Duchess of Cambridge made a curtsey to Queen Máxima of the Netherlands when they met each other in November. Probably she did. I can imagine Queen Máxima feeling a bit awkward when someone suddenly goes down the knees.

I think it will disappear bit by bit when the generation of William and Catherine become in charge. In Spain you can already see that the bowing and curtseying becomes less and lesser but some fellow-posters think it has to do with the current Consort there.

 

[cepe]

Princess Mary curtseyed to Willem and Maxima

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...QgN-6BhpM:&usg=__9T8mVrYX8W3sjlAoZ9bVN_QJuCA=

Sorry seem to only get entire google page!

 

[Dman]

I can not even imagine that The Duchess of Cambridge made a curtsey to Queen Máxima of the Netherlands when they met each other in November. Probably she did. I can imagine Queen Máxima feeling a bit awkward when someone suddenly goes down the knees.

I think it will disappear bit by bit when the generation of William and Catherine become in charge. In Spain you can already see that the bowing and curtseying becomes less and lesser but some fellow-posters think it has to do with the current Consort there.

The respect of the Monarch and Queen Consort with a curtsey and bow will still be around when they come to the throne. I bet everything that Catherine showed some respect to the King and Queen with a curtsey back in November.

 

[Countessmeout]

Do you have a photo Maria-Olivia? If so I'd love to see it.

I believe this is the moment

http://frederiketmary.f.r.pic.centerblog.net/11057314_627924270644292_2444849326412306193_n.jpg

 

[Mbruno]

I can not even imagine that The Duchess of Cambridge made a curtsey to Queen Máxima of the Netherlands when they met each other in November. Probably she did. I can imagine Queen Máxima feeling a bit awkward when someone suddenly goes down the knees.

Catherine curtsied to Philippe and Mathilde in Belgium. I would be surprised if she didn't make a curtsy to Maxima either.

 

[Countessmeout]

It would depend on where they met Max and WA. On their visit to the UK, I would expect Will and Kate to have bowed to them. It is British custom for royals to bow to more senior foreign royals. If Will and Kate were to pay a visit to them in the Netherlands, they wouldn't. The Dutch have done away with bowing. As I understand it, they don't practice having anyone bow to them, commoners or lower royals alike. Before they took the throne, Max and WA would have bowed to foreign monarchs though. Whether to bow/curtsey depends on the customs of the country they are in by practice.

 

[Mbruno]

It would depend on where they met Max and WA. On their visit to the UK, I would expect Will and Kate to have bowed to them. It is British custom for royals to bow to more senior foreign royals. If Will and Kate were to pay a visit to them in the Netherlands, they wouldn't. The Dutch have done away with bowing. As I understand it, they don't practice having anyone bow to them, commoners or lower royals alike. Before they took the throne, Max and WA would have bowed to foreign monarchs though. Whether to bow/curtsey depends on the customs of the country they are in by practice.

As you can see in the video below, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge bowed/curtsied to King Philippe and Queen Mathilde in Belgium, which seems to contradict your theory as Belgium is a country where people normally don't bow to the King and Queen anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY2tQxfic4Q

 

[TLLK]

As you can see in the video below, the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge bowed/curtsied to King Philippe and Queen Mathilde in Belgium, which seems to contradict your theory as Belgium is a country where people normally don't bow to the King and Queen anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY2tQxfic4Q

I agree Mbruno and I would imagine that the royal houses are all familiar with protocol expectations of the various royal houses. The King and Queen of the Belgians likely expected that the Cambridges would be following British royal protocol when the met in public.

 

[Bryce]

I think that the Royals (and by that I mean all of the ruling houses) do know the protocol - but I do not think it is a country by country thing. I think that the princes and princesses bow/curtsy to a monarch because that is the respectful thing to do i.e. acknowledge the position. I do not mean monarch versus minion but more of an acknowledgment of their status as a Head of State.

People have stated that is seemed awkward when CP Mary and CP Fredrick, for example, had to start bowing/curtsying to say WA and Maxima, but you can see it is often a formal bow/curtsy followed by a more "friendly" acknowledgment (kiss/hug etc). They pay tribute to the position and then to their friendship. You could see a few time initially how they thought it was amusing but, you must remember, this is how they were brought up and they perform these compliments probably without much thinking about it.

I, for one, think that our society is suffering from a general decline in respect. I understand the idea that all men are created equal and that we should not go around bowing to our "superiors", but I do think that we have moved past the Lord/Serf divide. I do think that we need to show respect to "the office" if not the person. Just MHO.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I always love it when Charles bows his head to The Queen and then kisses her on both cheeks before kissing her hand. He acknowledges his monarch first and then his mother but does it in such a way that it seems to be one movement and is one greeting. His brothers and sons do the same thing. It can be seen here where Charles first and then Harry - love Charles' little wave to his mother as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zeNvLihuZo

It is easier for the men to do it in one smooth movement like that than for women who have to curtsey and so change the level of their bodies in relation to each other.

I also love this one where the family greets The Queen Mum - who I notice doesn't curtsey to her daughter (she may do it off screen of course). We do know that Queen Mary insisted on curtseying to both her sons when they were King and to Elizabeth when she was The Queen but it seems that the Queen Mum didn't curtsey to her daughter who was the monarch.

The Queen Mother disembarks a train at Waterloo Station and kisses... Stock Footage Video | Getty Images

 

[Dman]

I noticed in the video that Harry didn't bow to the Sultan of Bruei, but Charles did.