New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Somebody]

It is a good letter. I liked it because she tells her love for Joachim's family, something that was lacking in the previous days.

I'm sure that it won't be a popular comment here, but from the very beginning I thought it would be fair to quit the titles of the two younger Federik and Mary's children. They will never be king or queen of Denmark and will have to live by their own means just like Joachim's children. It would be fair to keep the prince or princess title only for the heir and the next in line. And do it now.

When there was a little interview and Mary was asked about what would be her thoughts if her own children were in the same situations Joachim's children are, she acted like she hadn't understood the question and said something like "she didn't know what things were going to be like in Christian's time". She is sure that her own children are going to be untouched not only during QM's time but during her husband's time too. It didn't sound well to me.

I'm glad Margrethe said to her younger son and her grandchildren she is sorry about what they are feeling because she loves them. I think that if she takes the same decision about her other grandchildren and even her own sister, it would be better for all her family.

However, all the others you are mentioning are not in the same position as Joachim's children: they are children of the (previous/current/future) monarch while Joachim's children are grandchildren of a monarch. Unless she decides to strip Joachim and Marie from their titles, there is no reason to touch the titles of others who are in a similar position as them. And giving in to public sulking by removing titles from those in a very different position just to appease those that ran to the media because they didn't agree with her decision as queen, would be the wrong signal imho.

Also, given that both Benedikte and Joachim still act as Rigsforstander from time to time, they are clearly still actively participating in royal duties for the Danish royal house - unlike Joachim's children who are not expected to take on such important role. And it is not unthinkable that Christian's siblings will also be appointed rigsforstander from time to time, when they are old enough to do so. Of course, Frederik's grandchildren (other than those by his heir Christian) should be treated the same way Joachim's children are treated now - so, no highnesses but just a title of nobility (or no title at all).

Moreover, as I pointed out before, I cannot think of a country in which a distinction is made between the immediate spare and the other siblings (spares of the spare) (other than when some are in the line of succession and others are no longer) - and I wouldn't recommend the Danish royal family starting with it either.

 

[ppetrica]

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Marie was Miss Marie Agathe Odile Cavallier for 32 years, from her birth untill she married Joachim. And from that day on she was HRH princess. Not a HRH princess of her country, but of a country with which she never had any connection until 2 years before when she started dating Joachim. Yet, she didn't have any problems with losing her identity. I don't remember either her or Joachim complaining to the Queen that Marie cannot be given new status and title as this would make her feel like having her identity taken from her.

Same thing with miss Alexandra, she only met Joachim in 1994 and married him in 1995. She was miss Alexandra Christina Manley from birth, so for 31 years. I also don't remember her feeling ostracized and like her identity was being taken from her.
Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

 

[Kataryn]

(..)




Well, but if we are to refer to dynasties using the names of every feudal state ever reigned over by their male-line ancestors, then we had better refer to the Bourbons as "Bourbon-La Marche-Vendome-France".

But nobody seems to do that. Why only for the Glücksburgs?




Actually, he created him "Duke of Glücksburg".

Royal Patent of 6 July 1825 concerning the title of Duke of Glücksburg

Yes, and thank you very much for finding that document, it's always so interesting to read the text!
But as you can see on the same page, when Prince Christian was chosen as the Royal heir, he was named the whole bunch of territorial designations. Maybe that's the old way to deal with that (exchanging the "Sonderburg-Beck" for "Sonderburg-Glücksburg" for the father of the prince and himself) or it sounded better than a title only created some yeas before, I don't know.

Anyway, they could have gone for Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Beck-Glücksburg!!!


While musing about that, I thought of Prince Phillippos from the same family, who thought about which surname to exchange his Greek title for to marry Princess Elizabeth of the UK and thought back to the original title of the first Danish king from that dynasty, Christian I. who was the reigning Count of Oldenburg. Oldenburg translates to "Old Castle" or "Oldcastle" (to be more modern in the spelliung). Now imagine he would have taken that namefor his own surname!!! I doubt ElizabethII would have decreed that "Oldcastle-Windsor" should be the surname for her descendents, it would have make eg. Lady Louise Oldcastle-Windsor into a laughing stock, no?

 

[An Ard Ri]

Talks notwithstanding, I do hope the Queen does not back down on the matter and holds the line.
.

It would be highly embarrassing for the Royal House if there was u-turn!

 

[Muhler]

It would be highly embarrassing for the Royal House if there was u-turn!

Can't see that happening.

QMII has verbally and in writing confirmed that her decision stands.

Joachim et all really don't have that much to bargain with. - It may permanently sour their relationship with QMII, but better her than with Frederik I imagine she would think. (She even hinted that.)
And I doubt Joachim etc will find sympathy for reversing the decision.

- It was another matter if she had stripped all her grandchildren of their royal status except of course for Christian.

 

[Alison H]

The BBC report says that she's apologised, but that could be taken in a number of different ways, presumably as much so in Danish as in the English translation.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The BBC report says that she's apologised, but that could be taken in a number of different ways, presumably as much so in Danish as in the English translation.

Yes I just saw that
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63120481

 

[Alisa]

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Marie was Miss Marie Agathe Odile Cavallier for 32 years, from her birth untill she married Joachim. And from that day on she was HRH princess. Not a HRH princess of her country, but of a country with which she never had any connection until 2 years before when she started dating Joachim. Yet, she didn't have any problems with losing her identity. I don't remember either her or Joachim complaining to the Queen that Marie cannot be given new status and title as this would make her feel like having her identity taken from her.

Same thing with miss Alexandra, she only met Joachim in 1994 and married him in 1995. She was miss Alexandra Christina Manley from birth, so for 31 years. I also don't remember her feeling ostracized and like her identity was being taken from her.
Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

Well said!!!

Most royals when they WANT to appear humble and down-to-earth will say "oh I'm just Victoria" or "I'm just Sophie".
Joachim and company have gone the exact opposite.

I can't help but think how positively they could've viewed this. They could've said "It will give our children more freedom to pursue their own interests" and/or "It is an honor to bear this title that is so deeply connected to our father and France (especially now that they live in Paris).

 

[angieuk]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...e-following-criticism-son-Prince-Joachim.html

Allegedly, the Queen gave a public statement as she did not want to be seen as the 'Ice Queen'; allegedly?

Would this have happened had Prince Henrik still been alive? I'm beginning to think the fallout was not worth it!

 

[theroyalfly]

No matter what- it speaks to the exceedingly poor manner in which this was handled. Given the clear lack of communication- it wouldn’t stun me if there were details no one thought about…..until now.

They knew going to the press will never change her Majesty's decision. But yes, the letter only highlighted the lack of communication of the parties involved. Yes, they were told of the plan. But was it the Queen who reached out to them? That makes me wonder.

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Marie was Miss Marie Agathe Odile Cavallier for 32 years, from her birth untill she married Joachim. And from that day on she was HRH princess. Not a HRH princess of her country, but of a country with which she never had any connection until 2 years before when she started dating Joachim. Yet, she didn't have any problems with losing her identity. I don't remember either her or Joachim complaining to the Queen that Marie cannot be given new status and title as this would make her feel like having her identity taken from her.

Same thing with miss Alexandra, she only met Joachim in 1994 and married him in 1995. She was miss Alexandra Christina Manley from birth, so for 31 years. I also don't remember her feeling ostracized and like her identity was being taken from her.
Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

A commoner marrying a royal is different from a royal by birth. So if by chance the boys will speak up and feel offended. I won't see it as whining. They have every right to feel bad about this. Most especially, their name has opened doors for them to support their current lifestyle.

 

[The Crown]

It would be highly embarrassing for the Royal House if there was u-turn!

I hope the Queen will stay strong.

I think it was a communication problem. And it wasn't only a fault of the Queen but also Joachims fault. The Queen or her staff told him in may as he admitted himself. Why didn't he talk about it with his mother, his wife, his former wife and his children. I can't understand this. He knew it but he didn't talk about it. So everyone thougt it his ok for him and his family. This wasn't very intelligent of him.

 

[tihkon2]

I hope the Queen will stay strong.

I think it was a communication problem. And it wasn't only a fault of the Queen but also Joachims fault. The Queen or her staff told him in may as he admitted himself. Why didn't he talk about it with his mother, his wife, his former wife and his children. I can't understand this. He knew it but he didn't talk about it. So everyone thougt it his ok for him and his family. This wasn't very intelligent of him.

He was told something different in May. ie: The children would lose their titles at the age of 25.

None of them are 25.

 

[Alison H]

I do find that idea very odd. The historical norm has been that people are given titles as they grow up, not have them taken away. If they're going to have their titles taken away, I'm not sure what the point of waiting until they're 25 is.

 

[The Crown]

I think it makes no sense to give so much titles nowadays. People don't want to pay taxes for lots of Royals with titles, working or not working. If the children of Joachim will not work later for the Royal family then it is easier for them to have no titles. In other cases one can see that titles are used for making money with them.
Royal houses today are fragile constructions. In reality they are not longer needed. To be head of a state by birth is not democratic. All royal houses must be careful. They will be there as long as the people they want them. And I'm sure that due to this they want to give money and titles as little as possible.

@thkon2
It is not important if they lose titles now or when they are 25 years old. The question is why Joachim didn't talk with the family about it. He knew it from May until September. That makes four months to talk about it but he didn't do anything and now he is moaning. It really looks not very intelligent.

 

[kimebear]

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Alexandra and Marie chose to change their identity when they married Joachim, and Alexandra chose to lose her HH Princess title when she married Martin.

The children did not choose to lose their HH Prince/Princess title.

Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

Because the Monpezat title was a lower subsidiary created out of whole cloth to appease Henrik who was whining about not being King.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I hope the Queen will stay strong.

I think it was a communication problem. And it wasn't only a fault of the Queen but also Joachims fault. The Queen or her staff told him in may as he admitted himself. Why didn't he talk about it with his mother, his wife, his former wife and his children. I can't understand this. He knew it but he didn't talk about it. So everyone thougt it his ok for him and his family. This wasn't very intelligent of him.

Its all turned so messy and ugly and making the news all around the world

Queen Says Sorry!
https://www.euronews.com/2022/10/03...for-stripping-royal-titles-from-grandchildren

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/10/04/...apologizes-grandchildren-intl-scli/index.html

https://news.sky.com/story/queen-of...ipping-grandchildren-of-royal-titles-12711688

 

[Prinsara]

I think it makes no sense to give so much titles nowadays. People don't want to pay taxes for lots of Royals with titles, working or not working. If the children of Joachim will not work later for the Royal family then it is easier for them to have no titles. In other cases one can see that titles are used for making money with them.
Royal houses today are fragile constructions. In reality they are not longer needed. To be head of a state by birth is not democratic. All royal houses must be careful. They will be there as long as the people they want them. And I'm sure that due to this they want to give money and titles as little as possible.

@thkon2
It is not important if they lose titles now or when they are 25 years old. The question is why Joachim didn't talk with the family about it. He knew it from May until September. That makes four months to talk about it but he didn't do anything and now he is moaning. It really looks not very intelligent.

There was absolutely no call in Denmark to take the titles from Joachim's family. It became a bigger issue after Margrethe did it thoughtlessly and ended up needing to publicly apologize for creating such a lack of goodwill. Which really looks not very intelligent.

 

[ladongas]

Joachim's family's main argument is that the children feel as if loosing their identity, the rank and title are almost as part of their names („The children feel ostracized. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.“).
But how come Alexandra and Marie didn't feel like loosing their identities when they married Joachim?

Marie was Miss Marie Agathe Odile Cavallier for 32 years, from her birth untill she married Joachim. And from that day on she was HRH princess. Not a HRH princess of her country, but of a country with which she never had any connection until 2 years before when she started dating Joachim. Yet, she didn't have any problems with losing her identity. I don't remember either her or Joachim complaining to the Queen that Marie cannot be given new status and title as this would make her feel like having her identity taken from her.

Same thing with miss Alexandra, she only met Joachim in 1994 and married him in 1995. She was miss Alexandra Christina Manley from birth, so for 31 years. I also don't remember her feeling ostracized and like her identity was being taken from her.
Also, no one complained when the Queen created Count(ess) of Monpezat titles. It was a change too.

So it seems that identity loss works only one way.

Sorry, this is a false equivalency.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

QMII didn't "publicly apologise". She said she feels sorry that Joachim and his family feel as affected by her decision as they do.

He was told something different in May. ie: The children would lose their titles at the age of 25.

None of them are 25.

No, that was the proposal in May. A proposal Joachim himself has said he asked for time to think over. Though he has failed to elaborate on whether or not he ever returned his feedback.

 

[Mbruno]

There was absolutely no call in Denmark to take the titles from Joachim's family. It became a bigger issue after Margrethe did it thoughtlessly and ended up needing to publicly apologize for creating such a lack of goodwill. Which really looks not very intelligent.

I don't think we can categorically say that. There was no public outcry apparently to take the titles from Joachim's children, but we don't know to what extent the Danish government was involved in this decision, or even if the proposal came from the government itself.

The truth is that there has been a shift of opinion in Europe when it comes to titles of members of the Royal Family. In the past, a title merely indicated a certain degree of kinship to the monarch (or a former monarch) and had no relation whatsoever with "working" status. Although that is still how the rules on titles are framed in most monarchies, in practice, the new consensus seems to be that people who are not expected to have an official role representing the State or the Royal House should not be titled.

It is debatable if that "new consensus" is justified or not and, of course, even more controversial when any change in the rules also affects living people, especially living adults. But, in any case, Queen Margrethe II's decision seems to be in line with the general principle about who should or should not be titled in a contemporary Royal Family. For some reason, which is not clear yet, she felt she had to make that decision sooner rather than later, and that the decision should apply to the current generation and not only future ones, which has a precedent in Denmark based on the previous changes, for example, to the succession law.

I agree, however, that not having the family onboard before announcing the decision was a PR mistake. But I also think that Joachim's and Alexandra's reactions in particular were disproportionate and revealed a sense of entitlement for their sons. Marie's reaction was also disproportionate, but, in her case, she seemed genuinely concerned about potential psychological damage to her young children.

 

[JR76]

Marie's reaction was also disproportionate, but, in her case, she seemed genuinely concerned about potential psychological damage to her young children.

...and of her husband. Marie is a tiger always ready to jump in defence of her husband, her children and her step-children.

 

[carlota]

i am surprised this is happening, because the DRF always seemed to be such a close tight knit family. suddenly, it is as if they are/were not and J&M are doing a sussex style scandal, that is unnecessary to have in public. these things should be treated internally!

we will never know the queen's decisions for this, aside from streamlining the monarchy, but it is most odd that only J&M and their family are impacted. what about princess benedikte, and frederik's kids, aside from christian? it seems very targetted i must admit.

 

[Toledo]

In the USA news past 24 hrs two related articles.

First one on QMII making a public apology but keeping firm stance this is a step looking forward into the future. I assume to help future King Frederick have an easy transition when the time comes for him to take over:

Source NBC News:
Danish queen 'sorry' after stripping grandchildren of their royal titles

Second article Source Newsweek:
This one ties the QMII news to her cousin, King Charles III similar situation and points her decision as precedent for her cousin to follow.

Can I ask a favor on comments? Because the article below includes the situation of two specific members of the UK family, please, please, please stay within thread topic since the article itself relates to comparing decisions, not individuals.
Thanks!

Danish Queen Serves as Warning for King Charles

 

[Sister Morphine]

There was absolutely no call in Denmark to take the titles from Joachim's family. It became a bigger issue after Margrethe did it thoughtlessly and ended up needing to publicly apologize for creating such a lack of goodwill. Which really looks not very intelligent.

She didn't apologize. Saying, "I'm sorry you feel that way" is not an apology. She basically said, "I don't like that you're taking this the way you are, but I'm not changing my mind."

 

[Blog Real]

i am surprised this is happening, because the DRF always seemed to be such a close tight knit family. suddenly, it is as if they are/were not and J&M are doing a sussex style scandal, that is unnecessary to have in public. these things should be treated internally!

we will never know the queen's decisions for this, aside from streamlining the monarchy, but it is most odd that only J&M and their family are impacted. what about princess benedikte, and frederik's kids, aside from christian? it seems very targetted i must admit.

Joachim and Marie are not being directly affected, but their children are. Joachim and Marie continue to belong to the royal house and retain their titles. I think they could continue to work exclusively for the royal house, but those are the Queen's decisions.
As for Isabella, Joséphine and Vincent, in the future they will have to work for the royal house but from a certain point on they will have to have a job of the same kind that Joachim has now. It's my opinion.

 

[Winnie]

I must admit that I was surprised that the usual quiet Queen would even issue a statement clarifying her ruling. But I do not see it as an apology but more like a mother saying to her children "sorry you have a problem with these new rules but my house, my rules. You will just have to learn to live with them. Period." Something my parents issued a time or two. Parents still love their children and grandchildren no matter what.
That is not the point. I don't see her as thinking about reversing her new rulings, at least by this new statement, but I do see a determined strong woman. Apparently, she put up with a whining husband for years that publicly wanted to be known as KING and that didn't affect her opinion, so anyone else whining about a decision of hers will not phase her or make her change her mind. Just my opinion on her exact wording. Not apologizing for the change just sorry that her son and grandchildren got upset. Of course the media will put another slant on it to stir the pot. Five years from now, no one will even care. JMO

 

[Mirabel]

I doubt it will take five years.
The public grows bored very quickly.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Seriously. I doubt anyone will care come Christmas. The real test, I suppose, will be if Joachim and Marie attend the New Year's Courts in January.

 

[ashelen]

This is something that I thought should had been talked in between the family before to brake the news in the media. I do not understand the Queen and grandmother did not have a meeting with them first. Here I can see that they might notbe close as I thought . And between the 2 borthers family it might had been not goodrelation for a while but kept it behind doors. It is a complex situation becasue it is something public and it is something family. Also I think they could have kept the titles until 25 and if they decide not to work forthe Royal family so yes take the title away. All this should to have been avoided anyway with both parties being informed and agreed behind doors. And I agree with Marie it is a psicologycal thing for the kids, that it was not necesarry.

 

[Toledo]

Seriously. I doubt anyone will care come Christmas. The real test, I suppose, will be if Joachim and Marie attend the New Year's Courts in January.

That would be great if they attend and show how they can take the high road and move on past this event in their lives. Their presence and support for QMII and future King Frederick could be an example to members on other European Royal Houses in a similar situation.