New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Kataryn]

For me, the most important point is that probably noone in Denmark cares much if the family of their queen are prince/ess or count/ess or even just Mr./Ms./Miss. They have no surbame - invent one like Monpezat after their grandfather.



But - the only reason why these people are "special" is because they are descended from the queen, are her grandchildren. The Danes even have different words for paternal and maternal grandmothers, so important is this family relation there (obviously for historical reasons?) Now the "farmor" takes away the clear sign that her grandchildren are related to her (prince/ess of Denmark) and put them back to their farfar, paternal grandfather who was the original "Count of Monpezat".


Yes, these young people will still have a comital title and not be part of the "normal" Danish population. They even will have styles ("Your excellencies"!) which sound somehow ridiculous for an 13 yo ex-prince and his even younger sister. These should be styles to be earned not inherited. While prince/ess are definately title and styles you only inherit when you are related to the monarch.


There are so many other possibilities this could have been handled. Asking the prince/ess once they are adults (at 18? too early? 21? Or 25?) if they want to keep the title knowing about the restrictions or move on more freely as count/ess? let them know that the titles would be exchanged on marriage/reaching a certain age so they could do something like using a different name before that happens? (Give them time to marry a (German?) prince so they could use that title?)



This way it is as if the queen did not only strip her grandchildren of their titles but threw them from her family.



And if a queen (or any other monarch) does not care for the people related to her/them by (male-line) blood and send them out into the desert (yes, with money, tents, servants, whatever...) who should care for that family at all? A socialdemocrat or maybe communist government? LOL!

 

[Tatiana Maria]

For those asking why Prince Joachim's children would have lost their royal titles on marriage (if Alexandra's understanding is correct and not the result of another failure in family communication):


Per the Act of Succession, a person who marries without the formal approval of the monarch loses their right to the crown, and their descendants are also barred from the throne. Traditionally, members of the family who lost the right to the throne concurrently lost their royal titles and rank (with rare exceptions in special circumstances), as well as their membership of the Royal House and its associated privileges.

Until the marriage of Joachim and Alexandra in 1995, approval was not given for marriages to commoners. Queen Margrethe II's father, King Frederik IX, declined to approve the marriages of his nephews Prince Ingolf and Prince Christian to commoner women. Thus, they exited the line of succession upon marriage, thereby losing their royal titles. Their sister Princess Elisabeth has stated that the same would have happened to her if she had married her commoner partner during the reign of Queen Margrethe II.

As with Nikolai and Felix, Elisabeth, Ingolf and Christian were children of a younger son of a king.

Again: The official basis for the loss of Ingolf and Christian's royal status (and what would have been Elisabeth's loss of royal status had she married) was the commoner status of their partner. From that perspective, Queen Margrethe permitting her sons to marry commoners and remain princes could be perceived as nullifying the old traditions when it comes to male princes. (For Elisabeth, however, Queen Margrethe II always maintained that if she married her commoner partner, she could not remain royal.)

But from what I have gathered from Danish posters, it seems to be the general belief in Denmark that King Frederik IX, in contrast to his father or his Swedish colleagues, had no ideological objection to princes marrying commoners, and it merely served as a convenient pretext to keep the Royal House slim. And from that perspective, removing Joachim's children from the Royal House on marriage would be consistent with the precedent of Elisabeth, Ingolf and Christian.

 

[polyesco]

I think the decision was proposed in May but this has been a long time coming. Years. I can't help but think of Nikolai and Felix's decisions to quit the military so quickly. Okay their choice, they should live life like they see fit. But also the Queen has the right to make decisions for the future of the monarchy.

"Prince Joachim in a 2019 Interview commenting on his desire that his son be allowed to become “as normal a Danish citizen as possible,” after Nikolai was criticized from dropping out of military training."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1575436896565608448

So they want to be normal citizens, not be with the "constraints" of being princes, but then their entire identities are tied to being Princes?

 

[HRHHermione]

It really is a shame how the family has chosen to react to this publicly. Sadly, the more temper they show in public about it, the better a decision it looks.

 

[Prinsara]

The thing I don't understand about Daisy: She may not be the warmest, closest mother, but she had very close, loving parents, and she and her sisters are still hanging out together, by choice. She knows very well what family means. I think she didn't realize how badly this would blow up, as shown by her hesitant half-response about the grandkids being unhappy.

I think she didn't realize, but I'm not sure she did realize how hurtful this level of poor delivery gets. So either she didn't really believe "it was better for them (for the sake of the state)" or she did genuinely believe it was better for them. I'm not sure which one's worse. This is not about her mental state, more like living in an echo chamber.

 

[Iolanthe]

Thank you, Tatiana Maria. That makes a lot of sense. If it was indeed the family's understanding that Joachim's children would have lost their titles on marriage, I see no real pracitcal need to take them away now. Alexandra is right (while also a bit dramatic - but I understand that it's an emotional subject terribly communicated by the queen): why not just wait? The problem would have solved itself.

For those asking why Prince Joachim's children would have lost their royal titles on marriage (if Alexandra's understanding is correct and not the result of another failure in family communication):


Per the Act of Succession, a person who marries without the formal approval of the monarch loses their right to the crown, and their descendants are also barred from the throne. Traditionally, members of the family who lost the right to the throne concurrently lost their royal titles and rank, as well as their membership of the Royal House and its associated privileges.

Until the marriage of Joachim and Alexandra in 1995, approval was not given for marriages to commoners. Queen Margrethe II's father, King Frederik IX, declined to approve the marriages of his nephews Prince Ingolf and Prince Christian to commoner women. Thus, they exited the line of succession upon marriage, thereby losing their royal titles. Their sister Princess Elisabeth has stated that the same would have happened to her if she had married her commoner partner during the reign of Margrethe II.

As with Nikolai and Felix, Elisabeth, Ingolf and Christian were sons of a younger son of a king.

Again: The official basis for the loss of Ingolf and Christian's royal status (and what would have been Elisabeth's loss of royal status had she married) was the commoner status of their partner. From that perspective, Queen Margrethe permitting her sons to marry commoners and remain princes could be perceived as nullifying the old traditions when it comes to male princes. (For Elisabeth, however, Queen Margrethe II always maintained that if she married her commoner partner, she could not remain royal.)

But from what I have gathered from Danish posters, it seems to be the general belief in Denmark that King Frederik IX, in contrast to his father or his Swedish colleagues, had no ideological objection to princes marrying commoners, and it merely served as a convenient pretext to keep the Royal House slim. And from that perspective, removing Joachim's children from the Royal House on marriage would be consistent with the precedent of Elisabeth, Ingolf and Christian.

 

[ReeceT21]

Hmm. A complicated situation. I was surprised to see it when I woke up yesterday. I am in the camp that it is the right thing to do and in line with other royal houses, but there seems to have been a terrible lack of communication amongst the family that is causing rifts and bad PR. A coordinated roll-out of statements like the Sweden decision would certainly have been better.

I was curious about the wording of CG's announcement in 2019 but it is no longer on the court website. I don't think it would have hurt QMII to make some sort of personal reference of affection towards her grandchildren and stated that they would still be beloved members of the Royal Family. But alas it was all business.

I cannot really blame Joachim and Nikolai for what they've said. They seem to be genuinely rather hurt and it seems QMII has had very little personal contact with them about this matter. I certainly don't think they "owe" the Queen or the Court silence or should feel badly for speaking out about her actions if she hasn't bothered to explain it to them herself.

I believe the career implications are pretty clear and the strongest argument for these sorts of "royal demotions" as well as the public perception of a large royal house. As with discussions on British titles I think the idea that someone not holding a greater title (or one at all) affords them greater privacy is silly. Outside of main-line royals privacy seems largely up to personal choices. "Lady" Sarah Chatto has a much more private life than "Mrs." Zara Tindall. The late "Princess" Elizabeth had a more private life than "Countess" Alexandra. This move certainly doesn't free them from royal attention.

If Athena grows up wanting a quiet life out of the spotlight she could live quietly in France and it won't matter if she's a Princess or Countess.

 

[Mbruno]

They are not Glucksburgs or Oldenburgs that is the name of dynasty. Since 1st of Jan the will be know as Nikolai or Felix de Montpezant.

They were never Glücksburgs or Oldenburgs. They are patrilineally members of the Monpezat family, as are also Frederik and his children. The Glücksburg dynasty will end in Denmark with Margrethe II, just as the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Wettin dynasty just ended in the UK with Elizabeth II.



It is just that, like in other countries, the princes and princesses with the style of Royal Highness do not use a family name and bear instead a territorial designation such as "to Denmark, "of Belgium", etc.

 

[Muhler]

I think the decision was proposed in May but this has been a long time coming. Years. I can't help but think of Nikolai and Felix's decisions to quit the military so quickly. Okay their choice, they should live life like they see fit. But also the Queen has the right to make decisions for the future of the monarchy.

"Prince Joachim in a 2019 Interview commenting on his desire that his son be allowed to become “as normal a Danish citizen as possible,” after Nikolai was criticized from dropping out of military training."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1575436896565608448

So they want to be normal citizens, not be with the "constraints" of being princes, but then their entire identities are tied to being Princes?

Well, we have seen examples of double standards before:

I wanna be just like everybody else. Having a normal life - of course with the perks of being a royal, but not doing work as a royal, unless it suits me. Can we arrange that?
Hey! You are taking my title away from me! That ain't fair. I don't wanna be that normal.

That's how it comes across IMO. And that's how it's going to be perceived by everyone who doesn't know the details in forums like this.
Which is why I would like to gag Joachim, Alexandra etc. They are doing themselves no favors.

Perhaps QMII is simply more ruthless than QEII was?

Whatever. Goodnight.

 

[tommy100]

Yes I wondered that, if they had been led to believe the titles would go upon marriage in some ways it seems more unusual to take them away now...it wouldn't have been an issue in the future.

I guess a few things surprise me in all this - why now being one? They've just, finally, had the Jubilee celebrations and I imagine the Queen was likely seeing a popularity bounce as most sovereigns do after such events. Joachim and his family do seem largely forgotten about with them living in France and doing very few duties so there wasn't really a problem with them being seen everywhere all the time. It seems to simply have created an issue where none really existed all to be able to suddenly announce it now.

Again, I can't get over the shock of how daisy has managed this - if Joachim was so resistant in May was forcing the issue really the answer? Again, there doesn't seem to be a pressing issue to change a situation that has been the same for 20 odd years so why try and rush it? Daisy should have spoken to Joachim personally several times over and for longer before resorting to simply announcing it like this.

I also can't get over how far apart Joachim and the Queen have become, from being seen as the "vital back up couple" to single Fred, being seen as The Queen's favourite (I always felt) to being "sent" to France to be out the way, to stop doing so many duties, to now having the titles of his children taken away.

The lack of any personal family affection in the announcement is very striking, it doesn't help with a feeling that this was rather ruthless.

How ironic that in a bid to avoid a "British Royal Family situation" in the future they have potentially created one of their own right now.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

They were never Glücksburgs or Oldenburgs. They are patrilineally members of the Monpezat family, as are also Frederik and his children. The Glücksburg dynasty will end in Denmark with Margrethe II, just as the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Wettin dynasty just ended in the UK with Elizabeth II.

It is just that, like in other countries, the princes and princesses with the style of Royal Highness do not use a family name and bear instead a territorial designation such as "to Denmark, "of Belgium", etc.

Their membership of their paternal family does not cancel out their membership of their maternal family. Most people are capable of belonging to both of their parents' families. In the case of Margrethe and Henrik's descendants their maternal lineage has shaped their lives and identities far more than their paternal one.

The Crown Prince uses an inescutcheon of Oldenburg in his personal arms, just as his mother does, and his now defunct personal website used to state that he would reign as a monarch of the house of Glücksborg.

I am aware that some "traditionalists" are opposed to maternal transmission of house names and membership (although in fact European history includes many examples of female rulers being considered the heads of their families and passing on names accordingly), but it is not their choice to make.

Time will tell what happens when Queen Margrethe II's reign ends.

 

[Mbruno]

For me, the most important point is that probably noone in Denmark cares much if the family of their queen are prince/ess or count/ess or even just Mr./Ms./Miss. They have no surbame - invent one like Monpezat after their grandfather.



But - the only reason why these people are "special" is because they are descended from the queen, are her grandchildren. The Danes even have different words for paternal and maternal grandmothers, so important is this family relation there (obviously for historical reasons?) Now the "farmor" takes away the clear sign that her grandchildren are related to her (prince/ess of Denmark) and put them back to their farfar, paternal grandfather who was the original "Count of Monpezat".

So, what do you propose? That all descendants in male line of a Sovereign be princes/princesses in perpetuity? I know that is the German custom (still applied for example to the "Princes of Greece and Denmark" descending from Christian IX), but it was not the custom observed in many other parts of Europe and would be hard to argue in favor of it in extant monarchies today.



We now have 4 out of 7 kingdoms in Europe (Spain, Norway, the Netherlands, and Denmark) that have removed Prince/Princess (or equivalent like Infante/Infanta) as a prefix for grandchildren of the monarch who are not children of the heir. In Norway, persons who are in that class currently bear no title or style whatsoever; in Spain, they are untitled Grandees with the style of HE; in the Netherlands, they are Count/Countess; and, in Denmark, they are now HE Count/Countess. It looks like Denmark is the only of the aforementioned countries where that decision is being met with controversy, probably because it affected adult persons who used HH Prince for part of their lives, as opposed to applying from birth as in the other countries.


Ideally, I agree it should have been done to Joachim's and Frederik's grandchildren only, but then such decision would realistically be left to the next reign and I think Margrethe II wanted to do it while she is still alive to set a precedent for Frederik's reign.

 

[kimebear]

I'm not quite sure why Joachim and his family should be expected to take this on the chin without making their own feelings on the matter known.

His children do not receive public money directly, so what was the harm in allowing them to retain the titles that were bestowed on them at birth? Especially since they have understood that the same titles would be lost upon their marriages anyway?

When Nikolai made the comment about his passport, it sounded more like a young man wondering why he was losing his birth name and not the griping of a spoiled child.

After all, he and Felix have done nothing that I am aware of that would warrant the loss of their titles. They have not embarrassed the DRF in any way. They model. It's not like they do porn.

If this was a genuine measure on the part of the Queen to secure the monarchy, would it not have been better to strip any future descendants of Vincent's as well? As we may assume that Isabella's and Josephine's children will not be titled to begin with.

It all seems very cold and petty to me, and I don't believe that Joachim and his family should have to take pains to be quiet and discrete about a very public slight to them. Why must they respect the monarchy that clearly does not value them as members?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

You keep ignoring the part where they seem to be more upset by the truly rude and callous way it was handled. She even couldn't talk to her son or grandchildren personally. How nice......

Prince Joachim himself acknowledged that he was aware of the concept a few months ago. The outlines of the new slimlined monarchy were drafted years ago anyway when it was decided that younger children of the King would not receive any apanage at all (unlike taxpayer-spoiled Joachim himself whom could make a succes of neither his first marriage nor his gifted splendid estate).

He and his wife had all time of the world to tell that the monarchy and the workings of the Royal House would be changed to make it more sustainable for the future.

I'm not quite sure why Joachim and his family should be expected to take this on the chin without making their own feelings on the matter known.

His children do not receive public money directly, so what was the harm in allowing them to retain the titles that were bestowed on them at birth? Especially since they have understood that the same titles would be lost upon their marriages anyway?

When Nikolai made the comment about his passport, it sounded more like a young man wondering why he was losing his birth name and not the griping of a spoiled child.

After all, he and Felix have done nothing that I am aware of that would warrant the loss of their titles. They have not embarrassed the DRF in any way. They model. It's not like they do porn.

If this was a genuine measure on the part of the Queen to secure the monarchy, would it not have been better to strip any future descendants of Vincent's as well? As we may assume that Isabella's and Josephine's children will not be titled to begin with.

It all seems very cold and petty to me, and I don't believe that Joachim and his family should have to take pains to be quiet and discrete about a very public slight to them. Why must they respect the monarchy that clearly does not value them as members?

Because - anno 2023- it is simply not seen as desireable as well sustainable to have 20 princes and princesses of Denmark around. The trend in many monarchies is to move towards an official Royal House which consists of the current, the future and the former Sovereign.

 

[Mbruno]

I'm not quite sure why Joachim and his family should be expected to take this on the chin without making their own feelings on the matter known.

His children do not receive public money directly, so what was the harm in allowing them to retain the titles that were bestowed on them at birth? Especially since they have understood that the same titles would be lost upon their marriages anyway?

When Nikolai made the comment about his passport, it sounded more like a young man wondering why he was losing his birth name and not the griping of a spoiled child.

After all, he and Felix have done nothing that I am aware of that would warrant the loss of their titles. They have not embarrassed the DRF in any way. They model. It's not like they do porn.

If this was a genuine measure on the part of the Queen to secure the monarchy, would it not have been better to strip any future descendants of Vincent's as well? As we may assume that Isabella's and Josephine's children will not be titled to begin with.

It all seems very cold and petty to me, and I don't believe that Joachim and his family should have to take pains to be quiet and discrete about a very public slight to them. Why must they respect the monarchy that clearly does not value them as members?

They would lose the title upon marriage only if they married without consent given by the monarch in the Council of State and were accordingly excluded, together with their descendants, from the line of succession. At least that is the precedent of the Danish princes who lost their titles in the past.



There is no way to know if Nikolai and Felix would ask for consent to marry and, if they asked, if that consent would be denied. My guess is that the answer is Yes to the frst question and No to the second, and we have two examples in another country (Amedeo and Maria Laura of Belgium) that suggest my guess is at least plausible.


On the issue of future generations, I personally have no doubt that the same precedent will be applied (probably from birth) to Isabella's, Vincent's and Josephine's children. The German model of all dynasts being princes/princessses was already hard to defend under agnatic succession. Now, with cognatic succession, it would mean a big inflation of princes unless practically everybody was excluded by marriage after a generation or so. But, honestly, it is better IMHO to not be a prince from birth than being one just to lose your title when you are 30 or in the late 20s (the age people now get married).

 

[kimebear]

Because - anno 2023- it is simply not seen as desireable as well sustainable to have 20 princes and princesses of Denmark around. The trend in many monarchies is to move towards an official Royal House which consists of the current, the future and the former Sovereign.

And how are they being "sustained" exactly? They don't receive public funds as adults, so there is no burden on the Danish taxpayers. They attend the occasional official function and behave impeccably. Who exactly is being inconvenienced by them keeping their titles?

They would lose the title upon marriage only if they married without consent given by the monarch in the Council of State and were accordingly excluded, together with their descendants, from the line of succession. At least that is the precedent of the Danish princes who lost their titles in the past.



There is no way to know if Nikolai and Felix would ask for consent to marry and, if they asked, if that consent would be denied. My guess is that the answer is Yes for the frst question and No to second, and we have two examples in another country (Amedeo and Maria Laura of Belgium) that suggest my guess is at least plausible.

Wouldn't it have been cleaner to announce that male line grandchildren of a second son would carry no titles then? Or even state going forward that only children of the monarch and the heir's children carry titles? That would be a blanket solution without having to get personal.



To go about it in the manner that the Queen has done is unnecessarily harsh.

 

[polyesco]

...

Again, I can't get over the shock of how daisy has managed this - if Joachim was so resistant in May was forcing the issue really the answer? Again, there doesn't seem to be a pressing issue to change a situation that has been the same for 20 odd years so why try and rush it? Daisy should have spoken to Joachim personally several times over and for longer before resorting to simply announcing it like this.

So, Joachim can just refuse? drag his feet for more time. No.
For whatever reason the Queen wanted this done sooner rather then later. She wanted this settled in her reign. That is her decision to make.
I don't think May was the first time this was ever discussed.

 

[Erin9]

New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

Was it perhaps someone's move to force Jokke and family out? Not QMII, but one of her "clever" advisors? He's been getting pushed further and further out on that limb before it might have snapped yesterday...



What will they do...? I don't know, but please please please please please not become the Danish Sussexes. Please.



(See what you started, Daisy? What a can't see the forest for the trees move. :sad)

Agreed on this. I fully understand them not giving a message of support when they clearly don’t, especially given how this was handled. I understand commenting when asked- since Joachim’s silence yesterday spoke for itself. Everybody already knew anyway.

But- I do not want to see this turn into the Danish Sussexes. Ugh. That said- they seem hurt. Not angry. That’s very different. And my impression is the Queen seemed taken aback to realize this hadn’t gone down well….probably because she hadn’t involved herself personally enough to know.

So- hopefully this won’t be Sussex- like. Or- at the least I hope this won’t continue to be a public drama. It’s in everyone’s best interests to at least not keep commenting publicly.

Honestly- if the boys don’t feel they’re being adversely affected by having titles and the public don’t care about the titles….then who cares about doing this right now anyway? It’s not a money issue. This doesn’t help the public in any way. (I’d say the same about the BRF fwiw. So- just leave it. And do things going forward.)

 

[tommy100]

So, Joachim can just refuse? drag his feet for more time. No.
For whatever reason the Queen wanted this done sooner rather then later. She wanted this settled in her reign. That is her decision to make.
I don't think May was the first time this was ever discussed.

No, and I didn't say that. I said announcing it now when you know Joachim doesn't agree when there seems no pressing need for it to be announced right now strikes me as odd, and rather stupid of the Court. Given the Queen hasn't seemingly even spoken to her son about it, and not her elder grandsons that seems like a step you'd take before announcing knowing it doesn't have your family's support. I imagine the family and Court have been distracted by the Jubilee events as well so how much time has truly been spent on discussing this?
If they knew Joachim was so opposed, making sure they've taken every step possible for an agreement e.g. several meetings between Daisy and Joachim, Daisy meeting with her elder grandsons who could perhaps have been persuaded independently, heck even meeting Marie and Alexandra without Joachim would all be steps I'd expect to take. Doing the bare minimum and hoping for the best is pure stupidity.

 

[Erin9]

New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022

No, and I didn't say that. I said announcing it now when you know Joachim doesn't agree when there seems no pressing need for it to be announced right now strikes me as odd, and rather stupid of the Court. Given the Queen hasn't seemingly even spoken to her son about it, and not her elder grandsons that seems like a step you'd take before announcing knowing it doesn't have your family's support. I imagine the family and Court have been distracted by the Jubilee events as well so how much time has truly been spent on discussing this?

If they knew Joachim was so opposed, making sure they've taken every step possible for an agreement e.g. several meetings between Daisy and Joachim, Daisy meeting with her elder grandsons who could perhaps have been persuaded independently, heck even meeting Marie and Alexandra without Joachim would all be steps I'd expect to take. Doing the bare minimum and hoping for the best is pure stupidity.

Agreed. This could have and should have been handled so much better. It seems stupid to announce something you don’t really have to knowing you don’t have your son’s support and clearly not having put forth maximum effort to work out.

Your last sentence says it all.

 

[Prinsara]

Agreed. This could have and should have been handled so much better. It seems stupid to announce something you don’t really have to knowing you don’t have your son’s support and clearly not having put forth maximum effort to work out.

Your last sentence says it all.

Who decides to cap off the celebration of your Golden Jubilee year by taking titles from your grandchildren, anyway? What IS rotten in Denmark right now?

 

[rominet09]

Nobody likes to be downgraded, especially when you have done nothing wrong...I really think there are a lot of problems in that family that the public don't know about.

 

[polyesco]

No, and I didn't say that. I said announcing it now when you know Joachim doesn't agree when there seems no pressing need for it to be announced right now strikes me as odd, and rather stupid of the Court. Given the Queen hasn't seemingly even spoken to her son about it, and not her elder grandsons that seems like a step you'd take before announcing knowing it doesn't have your family's support. I imagine the family and Court have been distracted by the Jubilee events as well so how much time has truly been spent on discussing this?
If they knew Joachim was so opposed, making sure they've taken every step possible for an agreement e.g. several meetings between Daisy and Joachim, Daisy meeting with her elder grandsons who could perhaps have been persuaded independently, heck even meeting Marie and Alexandra without Joachim would all be steps I'd expect to take. Doing the bare minimum and hoping for the best is pure stupidity.

Well, we might not know the pressing issues, but the Queen might. Not every thing has to be in public display.
What if Joachim refused to meet? Looks like Marie and Joachim were expected last Friday for the government dinner. They did not attend. Both sides can be difficult to work with, not just the Queen.
And sorry, but the Queen did not need to meet with the ex wife of her son. Her son was informed. It was his duty to talk to his grown sons.

In a perfect world, things could have gone smother. but then again you need all parties to make an effort.
I just see nothing being gained from all these public statements.

 

[Somebody]

Prince Nikolai has talked to Ekstrabladet about his grandmother's decision to remove his & his siblings royal titles: - "My whole family and I are of course very sad. We are, as my parents have also stated, in shock about this decision and about how quickly it has actually happened. I don't understand why it had to happen this way."
When asked how this affects his relationship with his grandmother, he replied: "Ehm... I don't think I need to elaborate on how I feel..." and says that although he's known about it for a few days it really hit home when the decision was made public.

https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdni...ryder-tavsheden-jeg-forstaar-det-ikke/9448769

I wonder whether Joachim postponed telling his children until the queen's ultimatimum. Given that Nikolai states that he has only known it for less than a week - I can see how that timing was not sufficient for him to process it before it became public. Of course, that begs the question how much time would have been needed. However, as many already indicated: a conversation with his grandmother would have been the best way to go about it before the announcement.

Joachim said his alternate proposal was that the children lose them at age 25. He thought it was being considered. As he said "Athena is 11 in January". Clearly the timescale ended up being vastly different.

It looks like there were 3 different scenarios:

• Alexandra's expectation: removal of the titles upon marriage (suggesting that the (unspoken?) agreement would be that the non-heir grandchildren would not ask for permission (similar to how the youngest Van Vollenhoven princes in the Netherlands lost their place in the line of succession - not because the queen didn't agree with their choice of bride but because they were no longer deemed 'needed').
• The May proposal: loosing the title upon turning 25 (probably to avoid a princess Elisabeth scenario in which one of the grandchildren would refuse to marry to keep their style of HH and title of prince(ss))
• The final decision: removal of style and title per 1 January 2023 for all 4 children (the fast track).

I didn't read Joachim's comment as the May proposal being HIS suggestion but being the suggestion that was initially put forward/discussed on May 5.

"If they do something very stupid it will always come back on the family.”

Ain't that the truth.

And if their grandmother does something very stupid....?

True, however, I assume that in Margrethe's mind a commercial/business career would be out of the question for princes of Denmark. Meaning that their options would most likely be limited to public service (or health/education etc.) or the army (which the eldest two gave up quickly). Given that the eldest grandsons both are studying a Business Degree, she might have considered that inappropriate for a prince of Denmark but acceptable for members of the larger royal family.

I expect Alexandra will turn in her title at New Year's, to go along with her sons.

As for Jokke being "sacked", what makes you think he wants to stay anymore? (Whether he'll come back when Fred is king, who knows.)

Why would Alexandra turn in her title? She already lost the title of princess and was granted (just like her sons were earlier) the title of countess. I don't think the Danish counts, including one of Joachim's married-in cousins, like it that apparently some members of the royal members look down upon such an esteemed title.

I'm not quite sure why Joachim and his family should be expected to take this on the chin without making their own feelings on the matter known.

(...)

It all seems very cold and petty to me, and I don't believe that Joachim and his family should have to take pains to be quiet and discrete about a very public slight to them. Why must they respect the monarchy that clearly does not value them as members?

I'd say it wasn't a public slight to them. By their comments they have made it one. It was communicated as a decision consistent with previous decisions related to how the future of the royal family would look like and it included an assertion that although the grandchildren would no longer be princes of Denmark they would remain in the line of succession.

Of course, I don't know what the intentions are in terms of whether they want to keep Joachim's children in the line of succession - but this decision might make that possible as they don't need to use 'marriage' as a way to strip them of their princely titles...

Wouldn't it have been cleaner to announce that male line grandchildren of a second son would carry no titles then? Or even state going forward that only children of the monarch and the heir's children carry titles? That would be a blanket solution without having to get personal.

To go about it in the manner that the Queen has done is unnecessarily harsh.

However, that would be not true. The queen GRANTED them additional titles in April 2008 by creating the Danish title of Count of Monpezat for Prince Henrik and all his male-line descendants.

Nonetheless, I agree, it might have been clearer had they also communicated that the intention is that going forward only those born to the monarch or direct heirs would remain princes of Denmark. I wouldn't necessarily recommend which titles they might or might not use instead.

 

[Chronojourner]

The more I think about a monarch removing someone’s title for any reason other than them committing a severe crime, the more I think such actions degrade the whole concept of royalty. Being a Prince or princess is something you have by birth and heritage. Being able to lose it because a monarch wants to downsize the royal family is degrading and cheapening of this very idea. It’s no longer good enough to be born this way, you now have to worry that the monarch will decide that you’re expendable. “We have to lay off some people. Sorry, but we no longer need you. Here’s your pink slip, good luck.” Anyway, between this and a lot of other things, I’m just about over royalty completely. It certainly isn’t what it was when I was growing up.

 

[Mbruno]

The more I think about a monarch removing someone’s title for any reason other than them committing a severe crime, the more I think such actions degrade the whole concept of royalty. Being a Prince or princess is something you have by birth and heritage.

Being in the line of succession is something that one has by birth and heritage (unless the law places a cutoff in the line of succession too as in the Netherlands for example), but being called "prince" is not an automatic right of everybody with succession rights.



In fact, in the Iberian (Spanish/Portuguese) tradition and originally also the English custom, "prince" was a title held by the heir to the Crown only (as in the Prince of Asturias or the Prince of Wales). Other dynasts were in theory "princes of the blood" in the French sense, but they didn't carry the title "Prince" prefixed to their names, as BTW the French princes didn't either; instead they were normally known by their peerages (a custom that was also introduced by the Normans in England).



The inflation of princes as a titular dignity or prefix is, as far as I understand, a German custom, which the Hanoverians took (partially) to Great Britain and, of course, also influenced the monarchies in the German sphere like Denmark and Sweden.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

It looks like there were 3 different scenarios:

• Alexandra's expectation: removal of the titles upon marriage (suggesting that the (unspoken?) agreement would be that the non-heir grandchildren would not ask for permission (similar to how the youngest Van Vollenhoven princes in the Netherlands lost their place in the line of succession - not because the queen didn't agree with their choice of bride but because they were no longer deemed 'needed').
• The May proposal: loosing the title upon turning 25 (probably to avoid a princess Elisabeth scenario in which one of the grandchildren would refuse to marry to keep their style of HH and title of prince(ss))
• The final decision: removal of style and title per 1 January 2023 for all 4 children (the fast track).

I didn't read Joachim's comment as the May proposal being HIS suggestion but being the suggestion that was initially put forward/discussed on May 5.

Indeed, and the fact that the "starting proposition" in May (which I imagine was QMII's side's first draft for an agreement on the titles) didn't go through back in May makes me think it was Joachim who objected to it. Both sides refusing to cave would explain the 5+ months during which nothing seemingly has changed.

I wonder if QMII's side awaited an alternative from Joachim's side but Joachim thought that if he dug his heels in long enough, QMII's side would budge? In any way, the apparent complete collapse in communication between the two sides is to blame for a lot of the mess they're in right now.

 

[Prinsara]

True, however, I assume that in Margrethe's mind a commercial/business career would be out of the question for princes of Denmark. Meaning that their options would most likely be limited to public service (or health/education etc.) or the army (which the eldest two gave up quickly). Given that the eldest grandsons both are studying a Business Degree, she might have considered that inappropriate for a prince of Denmark but acceptable for members of the larger royal family.

Why would Alexandra turn in her title? She already lost the title of princess and was granted (just like her sons were earlier) the title of countess. I don't think the Danish counts, including one of Joachim's married-in cousins, like it that apparently some members of the royal members look down upon such an esteemed title.

Business is a perfectly acceptable career for both children and grandchildren of the monarch in the Netherlands, all styled Princes. I don't know why Denmark would be any different in that regard.

Why would Alexandra give up the title? Solidarity. And why does she want one from somebody who's downgrading (and almost degrading with the humiliation) her children?

I'm not saying she definitely will and give back the tiara, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised at this point, especially if these family breaches keep getting wider. Let's see if she keeps talking.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Can anyone comment on the opinions on Danish social media and comments sections?


Regarding the argument that titles do not entitle the bearer to taxpayer funds and therefore restricting them is pointless: All of the European monarchies save for Monaco and Liechtenstein have enacted policy changes within the past few decades to restrict the transmission of at least some of their family's titles. It is valid to criticize this trend, but a trend is what it is, and it is misleading to imply that the desire to downsize is an eccentric belief on Margrethe II's part.

(Applying the downsizing to persons who are already adults is a different matter; I don't think any of the other recent monarchs have done so - edited to add: except for King Juan Carlos I of Spain.)

If this was a genuine measure on the part of the Queen to secure the monarchy, would it not have been better to strip any future descendants of Vincent's as well? As we may assume that Isabella's and Josephine's children will not be titled to begin with.

Nobody has said that the precedent will not apply to Vincent's potential future children. But they are non-existent at this time, and by the time he is old enough to have marital children it is likely to be King Frederik's decision to make.

I don't think we can assume that the princesses' potential future children will be treated unequally to their brother's children. After all, we already know what Princess Benedikte's husband, and probably her children, would have been Princes and Princesses of/to Denmark if they had settled in Denmark.

I think that's a nonsensical argument. Even if you're not old enough to understand in the moment the titles are stripped from you, you will one day be old enough to understand and go through the exact same feelings the people who are "old enough" go through.

I am not sure how it is nonsensical to point out that undergoing a name change as an adult with a professional credentials, social media, bank accounts, personal relationships, etc., after decades of conscious identification with one's name is more challenging to most than learning after the fact about a name change that occurred outside of one's awareness as a small child.

I'll repeat myself as many times as I have to: Unlike other merching royals or royal-adjacents, Nikolai and Felix worked with the title WITH THE QUEEN'S PERMISSION.

How do you know it was with the Queen's permission and that she was asked?

I would also be interested to know whether it has ever been confirmed one way or the other. I am by no means well informed on the princes' work, but in the past I have assumed that they conducted their modeling careers in accordance with the Queen's guidance, given that the royal court spokesperson has defended Nikolai in at least one controversy, if I recall correctly, and relations seemed amicable. But the now apparent distance between grandmother and grandsons leads me to wonder how much coordination was actually present.

It was okay with the Norwegian Royals, seeing as there was Marius already as a not-Royal family member before a Royal child was born, the the heir, Ingrid Alexandra and then Sverre, the spare. Who is a HH Prince of Norway still, isn't he, though he is only the grandson of the king?

In Norway he is Prince Sverre Magnus, without "HH" or "of Norway", which are only used abroad.

https://www.kongehuset.no/artikkel.html?tid=27666&sek=27353

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

I am not sure how it is nonsensical to point out that undergoing a name change as an adult with a professional credentials, social media, bank accounts, personal relationships, etc., after decades of conscious identification with one's name is more challenging to most than learning after the fact about a name change that occurred outside of one's awareness as a small child.

Because if you had read the post I was replying to, that wasn't what was pointed out Erin9's comment was in reference to QMII's actions making Nikolai feel he's "less than". Of course on a purely practical level, it is more challenging to be stripped of your title as an adult. But as the discussion was about emotions, I simply pointed out that being stripped of your titles at a young age doesn't mean you can't grow up to feel just as hurt and discarded as people, like Nikolai, being stripped as adult do.