Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[kell]

Russia: Monarchist Nostalgia Remains Powerful - Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty © 2010 since all this time noone i see posted this article i may as well

 

[COUNTESS]

That because no one has ever lived under the old Tsarist rule. It sounds glamerous, but it was hell. Most of them didn't live under the Stalinist hell either. Things look good on paper, often are just foolish revery.

 

[Hereditary Thane]

Al bina, one could also say defunct failed royals are like stale fish. The present and emerging generation of ex royals seem to show an intelligence and compassion that is bereft in their parent's and garndparent's generations.

 

[august w]

that is so wrong, i wonder who you are? do you know what your saying?

 

[Russophile]

that is so wrong, i wonder who you are? do you know what your saying?

Actually I think Thane has it correct. Did Nicky not persecute the Jews? Would a current ruler of the House of Romanov dare the same thing?

 

[COUNTESS]

Unfortunately, given the right circumstances they might. The Soviet Union had no trouble were persection of Jews and others. What a monarch would bring to the table seems to me, not much. It will not solve the problems they have.

 

[Al_bina]

Al bina, one could also say defunct failed royals are like stale fish. The present and emerging generation of ex royals seem to show an intelligence and compassion that is bereft in their parent's and garndparent's generations.

Never I have compared defunct royals to stale fish. The key question is "How would the Russian Federation benefit from the restoration?". I can not answer this question in a clear manner. A fair number of modern Russians might be viewed as pragmatic. They does not care about communism or monarchy and see no reason to support the restoration. The current crop of the Romanovs brings nothing valuable to the table.

... [snipped] I wanted to comment, or ask a question I guess, on the above post by Al_bina. Russia has both a President and a Prime Minister. Both have offices with staff, and I would assume that both require some form of security 24/7. I would also venture a guess that the immediate families of both would get some form of security as well. Like the United States, England and any other country, the head of the government, whatever the name of the title is, would live in some form of government housing. Soooo, wouldn't you just be exchanging the office of President for a Tsar? Now I know there are going to be costs and expesnes I don't know about, but there's gotta be some costs that wouldn't change all that much. Just a thought/question. Thanks for letting me post.

It is not as easy as it might seem. There should be a basis for restoring the monarchy. The Romanovs' restoration has nothing to capitalise on. There is an obvious lack of influential powerful monarchists, who are willing to put time, effort and sufficient funds to lobby for the referendum on the matter. The viable chance of restoration faded away when Mr. Putin emerged as Prime Minister in the Yelstin government.

 

[Russophile]

Unfortunately, given the right circumstances they might. The Soviet Union had no trouble were persection of Jews and others. What a monarch would bring to the table seems to me, not much. It will not solve the problems they have.

I would like to think that were a monarchy restored they woudn't resort to starving around 15 million of their population to consolidate power like Uncle Joe did.

 

[Varaz]

The Truth about Leonida Georgievna Kirbi (Bagration-Mukhranski).​

Leonida Georgievna was born 23 (on October, 6th) 1914 in Tiflis, in a family of the former leader of Dusheti district nobility of Tiflisky province., prince George Aleksandrovicha Bagration – Muhransky and of the Polish noblewomen origin Elena Sigizmundovna Zlotnitskaja. (Daughters of the linear controller of Vladikavkaz railways. Cheslava-Sigizmund Zlotnitsky).

Leonida Georgievna belonged to the Muhransky high-nobiliary branch of Bagrationis, branche separated from reigning Bagrations in the beginning of 16 century and owned «Mukhrani fief». It is necessary to notice that the lawful head of the House of Bagrations lives in Georgia till today, HRH Crown Prince Nugzar Petrovich Bagration of Georgia, the direct descendant of last King of Georgia - George XII.
Thus, Leonida Georgievna from father side does not belong even to the reigning House of Bagrationis, but from one of the line which representatives never occupying the Throne of Georgia.

In 1921 after overthrowing of the Menshevic government of Noe Zhordania, George Bagration- Mukhransky family has gone abroad, however in 1923 they have returned back. In 1931 the family by means and help of M.Gorki has left the USSR. Leonida Georgievna has grown in France, and in 1934 in Nece has married the American financier Samner Moore Kirbi. For Mr. Kirbi it was already a third marriage. From this marriage in 1935 daughter Elena was born. In 1937 the couple has divorced. Samnera Moore Kerbi was waited by sad destiny, in 8th of April 1945 he was lost in German camp Buhenvald.

With the beginning of the Second World War friends have helped Leonida Georgievna with daughter Elena, to leave for Spain. There in 1946 the citizen of the USA Mrs. Leonida Kirbi, has got acquainted with the Head of the Russian Imperial House Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich. On August, 13th, 1948 on the eve of the "Uspensky post" they have secretly got married in the Greek church in Switzerland.

On this moment it is necessary to concentrate more carefully on this particular case. In 1911 Princess of Imperial Blood Tatyana Konstantinovna has decided to marry by love on prince Konstantin Aleksandrovich Bagration-Mukhranski, the second cousin of the Leonidas father Georgi. This marriage has been estimated as morganatic by the Russian imperial House. Emperor Nikolay II asked the permission to fulfilment of marriage to Empress Maria Fedorovna as the senior in a sort. From Princess Tatyana Konstantinovna was taken renunciation of Throne rights of succession. (Later "the moving chancellery of Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich" has tried to hide this left-handed marriage).

Thereby unequal position Bagration – Muhransky in relation to Romanovs was underlined. It is indicative, as senator Korevo, without assuming in 1922 whom the successor of Grand duke Kiryl Vladimirovicha will select to itself in spouses, resulted marriage of prince of Imperial Blood of Tatyana Konstantinovna with prince Bagration – Mukhranski as a left-handed marriage example «with the person who does not have own advantage, that is not belonging to any reigning or sovereign house».

It is necessary to notice also that the Synod of Russian Orthodox Church Abroad having received the telegramme of the aunt of Vladimir Kirillovicha – HIH. Grand duchess Elena Vladimirovna, the princess of Greece, has then forbidden wedding of the Grand duke with Mrs. Leonida Kirbi . But they have hastily left to Switzerland and got married in the Greek church. (Vladimir Kirillovich will explain later it in "naive" tradition: «Then in Madrid there was no orthodox church (!!!!) the Nearest was in Lausanne (Switzerland), therefore we have gone there»...)

Thus Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich - in 1948 has entered the Morganatic MARRIAGE from dissolved American civil Mrs. Leonida Kirbi, nee Bagration-Muhranski. After that marriage almost all Members of the Russian Imperial House have torn the relations with Vladimir Kirillovich. The exception was made by his uncle - Grand duke Andrey Vladimirovich, itself married to ballerina Matilde Kshesinsky. As to the Russian colony in Madrid, it has stopped any relations with Vladimir Kirillovich, considering that Leonida Georgievna cannot name itself "grand duchess" in any way.

It is necessary to notice that the family of Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich - after unworthy and doubtful business - of operations of prince Irakli Bagration-Mukhranski (brother of Leonida Georgievna and grandfather of David), there were rather intense relations with generalissimo F.Franko and for some years they have been compelled to leave Spain.

In 1953, at Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich and Leonida Georgievna was born the daughter, Maria Vladimirovna, nowadays self-appointedly claiming the Russian Throne. In 1969 Grand duke Vladimir Kirillovich declares the daughter «the successor of the Russian throne». However their Highnesses Princes of Imperial Blood- Vsevolod Ioannovich, Roman Petrovich and Andrey Aleksandrovich «as representatives of three branches of the Russian Imperial House» declared the protest. In the protest in particular it was said that «the marital status of the Spouse of Prince Vladimir Kirillovich equally with what Spouses of other Princes of Imperial Blood have, and we do not recognize behind her the right to be called as "grand duchess". This split remains till today; the majority of recent descendants of the House of Romanovs did not recognize use of a grand-ducal title by Leonida Georgievna.

 

[Hereditary Thane]

Why this post mortem animosity towards the Grand Duchess and her memory. This red herring: left handed marriage - the Church does no distinguish between a so called morganatic union and a a dynastic marriage. Indeed in Orthodoxy a peasant's marriage is equal to a prince's.

The Grand Duchess was married legally to the head of the imperial house, and as such he was the arbitrator of Romanov house rules. Don't pick and mix your support for the House of Romanov; it appears these so called adherents are doing more damage to the imperial family than any mad Bolshevik. And show some respect for a great Christian lady!

 

[Varaz]

Why then the so-called "Imperial house of Russia" does not recognises other representatives of a House of Romanovs? Do you know the truth ? because they are considered by supporters of Maria Vladimerovna as Morganatic heirs...

 

[Benjamin]

The Imperial Family of Russia now consists of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and her son Grand Duke George Mikhailovich.

The reason that the other Romanovs do not belong to the IMPERIAL House is quite simple: the other Romanov descendants alive today descend from morganatic marriages that could not transmit dynastic rights or titles to those who are born from them.

 

[Varaz]

Dear Benjamin, if you have noticed I too have mentioned that Maria Vladimirovna is from the MORGANATIC marriage because Princes Bagration-Muhranski were always considered as one of high-nobiliary origins of Georgia. This offshoot could not be equal in relation to Romanovs Imperial Dynasty in any way. Princes Bagration-Muhranski as a high-nobiliary offshoot from royal Bagrations Dynasty in itself yet did not mean its special rights – otherwise, precisely same rights of equality should possess with Romanovs all numerous descendants of Princely families of Rurikovichs , many of which had even no princely title in the Russian empire and held rather modest position.

 

[Benjamin]

Dear Varaz,

Have you ever read or studied the Fundamental Laws that govern the members of the Imperial House of Russia?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I ran across this history of the Romanovs who escaped from Russia but I am perplexed after reading it. Can someone verify its accuracy and determine who is the head of the Romanovs today?

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/ImperialRussian/royalty/russia/survivor.html

 

[vsriCo]

I ran across this history of the Romanovs who escaped from Russia but I am perplexed after reading it. Can someone verify its accuracy and determine who is the head of the Romanovs today?

There's basically two schools of thought. The first is that all the Romanov's today are illegitimate according to the Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire and that there is no true 'heir'. The second is that GD Maria's is the product of an equal marriage and therefore her and her son are the only legitimate Romanov dynasts.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

vsriCo,

thank you for the reply but is it safe to assume that under the first school of thought, GD Maria is excluded? And under the second, assuming that there were no considerations given to morgantic unions, is there an heir with a better claim than Maria's claim to the throne?

 

[Alison20]

I can understand that the Princes wish to maximise their claim to the (currently non-existant) throne of Russia.

However, I feel we should look to other Royal Houses, both ruling and exiled, and see how they have moved from rigid, old-fashioned dynastic rules (probably acceptable in the social climate of those days) to a freer definition in line with current thoughts. Rules have been specifically changed in Sweden and Norway. The House rules have been redefined for the Roumanian Royal Family. It seems to me that a marriage with a member of a noble Georgian family (related to the ruling line) should be taken as acceptable. Grand Duke Vladimir was Head of the Imperial House, and should have been able to adapt the House rules. Also since Russia has in the past had ruling Empresses, I can't see any objection to Grand Duchess Maria being considered barred because she is a woman.

It is also clear that none of the current Romanov Princes (who have never had the status of Grand Dukes) come from a 'pure' line. There are 'morganatic' or unequal marriages at every turn. If they can consider themselves acceptable in lineage, then there is no reason to call Grand Duchess Maria unacceptable.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Yes, but what about GD Maria's ancestors repudiating the Tsar when the revolution began? Doesn't that make them traitors to the throne and shouldn't they and their family line be barred from now asserting the claim to the throne?

 

[kell]

and hence the issue of the family being at each other about it and hence the problem with the yeltson era aptemts to restore the throne non of the romanovs are fitted with being proper legal claimaint under dysnatic law bareing the erie from people but each claim is on very touchy ground inculdeing maries

 

[snowflower]

Given than the ascession to the throne was semi salic aren't there any descandants of a female Romanovs who are offprings of equal marriages? there must be some I guess

 

[Hereditary Thane]

The so called Fundamental Laws of the Imperial Romanov House ceased to be legal in 90 years ago. Today the same rules are perpetuated as mere rules of association, like those of an amateur football club. Anyone who supports the archaic custom of unequal marriage is living in cloud cuckoo land. As with any association's constitution they can subscribe to rules that govern their activities, but only in a legal context. All the Romanovs should concentrate their minds and be less selfish. Most adults can gather and agree on fair rules, but not it seems the Romanovs. Are they worthy of a Russian restoration?

 

[Sovereign_Of_Love]

Seems not to be... I had been doing some reading and well.. it just won't happen, most aren't anywhere close to being the next 'ruler' and those who are will be discredited by the latter. Shame really, I'd like there to be another monarchy over Russia. Again won't happen, IMHO.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I doubt if the Romanovs, morganatic or not, will be restored to the throne of Russia, at least not in the near furture and probably never. Russians are enjoying, for good and bad, the fruits of their new democracy and those who are not enjoying it are longing for communist rule. A very small crowd may be agitating for the monarchy but again, I doubt it will happen. Too bad, it would be nice to see the pomp and circumstance again in Old Russia, now that the USSR is dead.

 

[Kasumi]

...A very small crowd may be agitating for the monarchy but again, I doubt it will happen...

The Prince Michael of Kent or Prince Harry of Wales have better chanses to become the Russian tzar then Georgiy Hohenzollern-Romanov because of his roots.
Article in Russian and one more
Russian monarchists are not united, most of them have low social profile to become an influental power in the society.
Meanwhile the Prince Michael of Kent speaks Russian perfectly.

 

[vsriCo]

thank you for the reply but is it safe to assume that under the first school of thought, GD Maria is excluded? And under the second, assuming that there were no considerations given to morgantic unions, is there an heir with a better claim than Maria's claim to the throne?

GD Maria's grand father was third in line to the throne of Russia in 1917. After the death of Nicholas II, Alexei and Grand Duke Mikhail her grand father was the most senior Romanov.

Yes, but what about GD Maria's ancestors repudiating the Tsar when the revolution began? Doesn't that make them traitors to the throne and shouldn't they and their family line be barred from now asserting the claim to the throne?

This is basically an emotional argument.. I don't see it having much relevance. Just look at the hundreds of years of Romanov rule, so many Tsar's were assassinated by their family and in other events the legitimate heir was denied the throne by other Romanov's.

The Prince Michael of Kent or Prince Harry of Wales have better chanses to become the Russian tzar then Georgiy Hohenzollern-Romanov because of his roots.
Article in Russian and one more
Russian monarchists are not united, most of them have low social profile to become an influental power in the society.
Meanwhile the Prince Michael of Kent speaks Russian perfectly.

What absolute Rubbish. "Because of his roots"? The House of Windsor is just as Germanic as the House of Romanov - regardless, the Russian people bear no ill will towards Germany. Historically, going back hundreds of years, relations between Russia and Britain have been terrible. Of all the current and former ruling houses of Europe, that of Britain is the least likely to be called upon in the event of a restoration of monarchy.

With respect to the Russian language, GD Maria's is fine. It is that slight accent similar to her mothers. But it's no different that of a Muscovite compared to someone in Vladivostok.

 

[vsriCo]

Bump. Russian's are the greatest admires of the British Monarchy:

Russians are the greatest admirers of the British monarchy and Queen Elizabeth II in the world, the VisitBritain tourism organization has said.
VisitBritain has conducted a survey involving 25,000 people in 30 countries to reveal their attitude to the British Royal Family. The poll showed that 83 percent of those questioned in Russia would like to visit sites related to the Royal Family if they travel to Britain. Half of French would-be visitors, 57 percent of U.S. and 71 percent of Chinese potential tourists said they would like to visit such sites.
The Tower of London, the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich, the Victoria and Albert Museum, the St. Paul's Cathedral and Westminster Abbey are the most popular attractions in London, the poll indicated.
According to the survey, Britain's revenues from Russian tourists account for 500 million British pounds ($780 million) a year.
Russia had been a monarchy for centuries until the Bolsheviks seized power in 1917 and massacred Russia's last tsar, Nikolas II, his wife, their four daughters and son in July 1918.
According to a poll conduced by the Russia Public Opinion Research Center (VTsIOM) in 2006, 9 percent of Russians would like the monarchy to be restored in the country.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20100729/159988652.html

 

[Cory]

Why GD Maria and GD George still live abroad and not in Russia?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Perhaps because she prefers living elsewhere. Although Russia is no longer a communist country, it has plenty of problems, both societal and economical, and Maria may not feel as comfortable living in her ancestral land.

 

[nascarlucy]

You guys have lost me totally. I don't understand the rules of succession. Since there are so many many people involved, it gets very tangled.

GD Maria didn't grow up in Russia. Although it's no longer a communist country, the communist influence is still there and communism is anti-royal. If you have ever read Russian historians writing about the Czar during the time of communism, they are very hostile towards royalty. They (royalty) are basically blamed for every social ill or problem Russia has had in the last several hundred years.