Monaco's succession issues

[Suonymona]

That would be something, if Albert were to try and retrofit the constitution so Caroline would take the throne as soon as the change was ratified. Her children would be come the "heir and spares" and Albert wouldn't have to worry about getting married to have legitimate children!

I think I've just solved the great dilemma!

Ann

 

[fandesacs2003]

Ruling Monaco

Prince Albert has legally accepted that Jasmin AND Alexandre are both his children. Nevertheless they do not have any succession rights.

Do you think that it is unfair?

It is more justice that Andrea becomes the next Monaco's sovereigh, despite that Prince Albert has two children? And they are both young enough to be brought up and to receive all the necessary education for governing?

Your opinion would be very interesting

 

[hibou]

Prince Albert has legally accepted that Jasmin AND Alexandre are both his children. Nevertheless they do not have any succession rights.

Do you think that it is unfair?

It is more justice that Andrea becomes the next Monaco's sovereigh, despite that Prince Albert has two children? And they are both young enough to be brought up and to receive all the necessary education for governing?

Your opinion would be very interesting

Rainier knew about Jazmin and chose to change the constitution so Rainier had strong feelings that in order to legitimize his dynasty in the eyes of the other royals the heir to the throne should be legitimate through marriage. That is not to say ALbert couldn't try to change it back but people so admired Rainier that I doubt he would stand a chance of doing it. JMO

 

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

I agree, hibou. In addition, with the (over)exposure in the media, the Casiraghi trio are tabloid superstars and, to a certain extent, the Mongasque people have claimed them as their own. That isn't something I think could happen with Jazmin because she is too old or with Alexander because of the ill will toward his mother.

Even without that, however, if you consider the charisma of these young people, there is not denying that while Jazmin is a pleasant, attractive, charming girl and Alexander is a cute toddler, neither of them at this point has the magnetic attractiveness and charisma of either Andrea or Charlotte. Both of them, at least in terms of physical beauty and photographic appeal, are superstars. Pierre can sometimes fall off the radar but he has the same quality more often than not.

I don't believe such traits can be developed, they are innate. In a way, I think reflects the same way with the current royals in Monaco. Albert may be the ruler but unless he is in the company of a woman or his nieces and nephews, he is rather bland and forgettable. Stefanie gets attention from her crazy actions and outfits, and she has some charisma, but in general pales in comparison to her older sister. The same can be said about Antoinette in comparison to Rainier. If everyone was on their best behavior, dressed as well as they could, etc., and there were no titles or links to royalty, I believe that more people would notice, be attracted to, be drawn toward Rainier, Grace, Caroline, Andrea, Charlotte, and Pierre.

After all is said and done, however, the laws in that country are definitive and because of that I do think it is fair.

Mapper

 

[rosana]

As far as i know there´s the religious problem,even the Casiraghis were not legitimate heirs until 1992 when they were recognized by the Pope.The heir to the monegasque throne has to be born in a catholic marriage.

 

[EmpressRouge]

It's not impossible for Jazmin or Alexandre to succeed to the throne. Albert could legally adopt them the same way Louis II adopted his illegitiment daughter, Charlotte (Rainier's mother).

 

[libra65]

As far as i know there´s the religious problem,even the Casiraghis were not legitimate heirs until 1992 when they were recognized by the Pope.The heir to the monegasque throne has to be born in a catholic marriage.

This may be true. However, under the current constitution as it now reads, the trio are all legitimate heirs. I really don't think Albert has any intention of pulling the rug out from under them and changing the constitution so his illegitimate kids who weren't raised around palace life can take the throne. JMO.

 

[libra65]

It's not impossible for Jazmin or Alexandre to succeed to the throne. Albert could legally adopt them the same way Louis II adopted his illegitiment daughter, Charlotte (Rainier's mother).

No he can't. The adoption clause was eliminated under the new constitution that Rainier put in to play in the early 90's.

 

[rosana]

Albert is not worried about his heir, he has the Casiraghis already. Besides the constitutional matters, i think he has no intention of adopting this kids or make them live close to him, i´m not sure that he loves them, that happens when a woman "forces" a man to become a parent.

 

[paca]

It's not impossible for Jazmin or Alexandre to succeed to the throne. Albert could legally adopt them the same way Louis II adopted his illegitiment daughter, Charlotte (Rainier's mother).

adoption has been excluded since then. And Charlotte never ruled, she was only supposed to bear a son. If I remember correctly louis adopted her husband too so that the name could continue.

Albert is not worried about his heir, he has the Casiraghis already. Besides the constitutional matters, i think he has no intention of adopting this kids or make them live close to him, i´m not sure that he loves them, that happens when a woman "forces" a man to become a parent.

strictly speaking he has Caro and Steph. Caro has the casiraghis

 

[britty1]

I think that steph and caro or the casiraghi siblings are more suited to the throne then jazmin or alexandre. i don't think it's unfair that they don't get in line for the throne but then i think that jazmin and alexandre should get something(money), which i don't think is a big problem.

 

[RubyPrincess168]

I don't think Jasmine and Alexandre should be allowed to inherit the throne. But they are entitled to a portion of Daddy's estate.

 

[fandesacs2003]

Albert is not worried about his heir, he has the Casiraghis already. Besides the constitutional matters, i think he has no intention of adopting this kids or make them live close to him, i´m not sure that he loves them, that happens when a woman "forces" a man to become a parent.

You are right.
On the other side, especially when you are a Prince you should be more "carefull", birth control exists.....
I do not think the both women really "forced" him to become a prince, he just was irresponsible.

 

[iloveroyals]

Somehow, I feel bad for the Grimaldi family having Andrea as the heir presumptive until (if) Prince Albert has (legitimate) children. I saw a headline saying that Prince Harry was going to go to Iraq. Both Prince Rainier and Prince Albert were in the military. All the English princes have been in the military, whatever their rank in succession. Now, we have an almost 23 year-old young man who only has a trip with AMADE on his resume to qualify him to rule a country. He acts like an adolescent, we don't know whether he studies, what he studies, where he studies, even whether he passed his bac or not, everything is rumor and speculation, most of the time he looks unkempt, seems to utterly lack in self-discipline and an awareness that appearances matter when your may have to take a country's destiny into your hands. What is going on ? If I were a Monegasque, I'd be worried. Sure, he may be sowing his wild oats, but some official statement should come before his 23d birthday as to how he plans to serve his country or simply work at something for heaven's sake, instead of making silly faces with his girlfriend in Vogue. I know this post will upset his fans, and I'll be told that he can't be compared to the English princes, but can we possibly compare him to his grandfather and uncle, or even father ? Whatever Stefano's faults might have been, he showed intiative (didn't follow up in his mother's or wife's footsteps for lack of something original to do), showed courage and discipline in sports, and was always the perfect gentleman in dress and manners as husband to a princess. Can Andrea possibly do the same as son of a Royal Princess and nephew of a ruling Prince ?
If I write this, it's because I care. I care about Monaco, I care about the Grimaldis.

 

[brother]

Somehow, I feel bad for the Grimaldi family having Andrea as the heir presumptive until (if) Prince Albert has (legitimate) children. I saw a headline saying that Prince Harry was going to go to Iraq. Both Prince Rainier and Prince Albert were in the military. All the English princes have been in the military, whatever their rank in succession. Now, we have an almost 23 year-old young man who only has a trip with AMADE on his resume to qualify him to rule a country. He acts like an adolescent, we don't know whether he studies, what he studies, where he studies, even whether he passed his bac or not, everything is rumor and speculation, most of the time he looks unkempt, seems to utterly lack in self-discipline and an awareness that appearances matter when your may have to take a country's destiny into your hands. What is going on ? If I were a Monegasque, I'd be worried. Sure, he may be sowing his wild oats, but some official statement should come before his 23d birthday as to how he plans to serve his country or simply work at something for heaven's sake, instead of making silly faces with his girlfriend in Vogue. I know this post will upset his fans, and I'll be told that he can't be compared to the English princes, but can we possibly compare him to his grandfather and uncle, or even father ? Whatever Stefano's faults might have been, he showed intiative (didn't follow up in his mother's or wife's footsteps for lack of something original to do), showed courage and discipline in sports, and was always the perfect gentleman in dress and manners as husband to a princess. Can Andrea possibly do the same as son of a Royal Princess and nephew of a ruling Prince ?
If I write this, it's because I care. I care about Monaco, I care about the Grimaldis.

Amen!!!! Excellent points!!

 

[kaffir]

I agree, but it's the people of Monaco that will suffer, not the Grimaldis. And what did Stefano do exactly except for race speedboats?

 

[Tosca]

Both Prince Rainier and Prince Albert were in the military.

,

but can we possibly compare him to his grandfather and uncle, or even father ? Whatever Stefano's faults might have been, he showed intiative (didn't follow up in his mother's or wife's footsteps for lack of something original to do), showed courage and discipline in sports, and was always the perfect gentleman in dress and manners as husband to a princess. Can Andrea possibly do the same as son of a Royal Princess and nephew of a ruling Prince

Stefano never served in the Italian army, as he'd showed a medical certificate compiled by a surely very obliging doctor, where it was stating that Stefano couldn't possibly serve in the military as he was affected by impotence - at that time serving in the army was mandatory in Italy, while it's been a volunteer army since 2005, if I'm correct -.

This story hit the headlines in Italy when Charlotte was born, so somebody hastened to tell the press it was just a matter of "temporary impotence". His disease might probably have lasted as long as the whole period of the military service, that's one year.

Apparently Stefano acted as a gentleman when married to Caroline; however there's an ex girlfriend of his, an actress named Dalila Di Lazzaro that thinks differently.
In an interview appeared in last week's DIVA mag, she talked about her romance with Stefano, that she'd met before he got involved with Caroline.
She states that she was astonished when she heard he got engaged with Monaco Princess, because she knew he was a very shy guy. She recalls that when he went to Orvieto, where she was acting in a film, each time he met her he was sort of trembling and his hands perspired. Of course he loaded her with gifts. Her gay friends called him "her step-sister", as they said he sort of looked like her.

One day Dalila wanted to read some mail from her fans, and coincidentally she picked up one letter coming from a girl of Como (Stefano's birthplace). The girl wrote: " If I were you, I wouldn't let him even have a cup of coffee with you! Such a lady as you are doesn't deserve such a jerk!
Each time he comes back to Como, he goes on bragging of how fantastic a lover he is, especially when he sleeps with you!"
After that Dalila broke up with him, and didn't want to see him anymore. When asked why she did - after all he was looking so good - she always replied:" He wasn't much of a lover, actually!"

 

[fandesacs2003]

Somehow, I feel bad for the Grimaldi family having Andrea as the heir presumptive until (if) Prince Albert has (legitimate) children. I saw a headline saying that Prince Harry was going to go to Iraq. Both Prince Rainier and Prince Albert were in the military. All the English princes have been in the military, whatever their rank in succession. Now, we have an almost 23 year-old young man who only has a trip with AMADE on his resume to qualify him to rule a country. He acts like an adolescent, we don't know whether he studies, what he studies, where he studies, even whether he passed his bac or not, everything is rumor and speculation, most of the time he looks unkempt, seems to utterly lack in self-discipline and an awareness that appearances matter when your may have to take a country's destiny into your hands. What is going on ? If I were a Monegasque, I'd be worried. Sure, he may be sowing his wild oats, but some official statement should come before his 23d birthday as to how he plans to serve his country or simply work at something for heaven's sake, instead of making silly faces with his girlfriend in Vogue. I know this post will upset his fans, and I'll be told that he can't be compared to the English princes, but can we possibly compare him to his grandfather and uncle, or even father ? Whatever Stefano's faults might have been, he showed intiative (didn't follow up in his mother's or wife's footsteps for lack of something original to do), showed courage and discipline in sports, and was always the perfect gentleman in dress and manners as husband to a princess. Can Andrea possibly do the same as son of a Royal Princess and nephew of a ruling Prince ?
If I write this, it's because I care. I care about Monaco, I care about the Grimaldis.

I totally agree with you.
Nevertheless, Monaco should not be compared to the UK. To rule Monaco you should be glamorous enough to attract glamorous people, it is a place of well living, and I think that Monaco residents would never care at all of Andrea going in Irak or not going. Monaco residents live a good life, and their ruler has to be in this frame. A good liver going to F1, Bal de la Rose, Bal de red Cross, and taking care about safety in Monte Carlo. Why he has to go in Irak? Did someone of the residents go in Afganistan, or Irak, or Indonesia after the Tsunami??
Prince Albert went to army, but out of this, during the last 20 years what was he doing? Going to his office and doing sports, that's it.
Andrea is a golden boy, he lives like a golden boy, like ALL the other boys of his "world". Lateron He will go to his Monaco office, spend some hours per day, and that's it. Prince Albert is young, normally speaking Andrea, IF he rules Monaco he wont rule it before his 50s - 60s !
And I sincerely think that we do not anything about Andrea, because he is doing nothing. He did not have his bac, he may just passd through a light "school" ann now he is partying, travelling and going around with Tatiana.

 

[fandesacs2003]

,

Stefano never served in the Italian army, as he'd showed a medical certificate compiled by a surely very obliging doctor, where it was stating that Stefano couldn't possibly serve in the military as he was affected by impotence - at that time serving in the army was mandatory in Italy, while it's been a volunteer army since 2005, if I'm correct -.

This story hit the headlines in Italy when Charlotte was born, so somebody hastened to tell the press it was just a matter of "temporary impotence". His disease might probably have lasted as long as the whole period of the military service, that's one year.

Apparently Stefano acted as a gentleman when married to Caroline; however there's an ex girlfriend of his, an actress named Dalila Di Lazzaro that thinks differently.
In an interview appeared in last week's DIVA mag, she talked about her romance with Stefano, that she'd met before he got involved with Caroline.
She states that she was astonished when she heard he got engaged with Monaco Princess, because she knew he was a very shy guy. She recalls that when he went to Orvieto, where she was acting in a film, each time he met her he was sort of trembling and his hands perspired. Of course he loaded her with gifts. Her gay friends called him "her step-sister", as they said he sort of looked like her.

One day Dalila wanted to read some mail from her fans, and coincidentally she picked up one letter coming from a girl of Como (Stefano's birthplace). The girl wrote: " If I were you, I wouldn't let him even have a cup of coffee with you! Such a lady as you are doesn't deserve such a jerk!
Each time he comes back to Como, he goes on bragging of how fantastic a lover he is, especially when he sleeps with you!"
After that Dalila broke up with him, and didn't want to see him anymore. When asked why she did - after all he was looking so good - she always replied:" He wasn't much of a lover, actually!"

]

I think is very low to give such inteviews, more than 16 years after his death.
I believe that Dalila, being almost forgotten, found this way to appear again, she used her relation with Stefano just for publicity.
Whaterver he was, bad lover of good lover, he did not cheet on her, he was a good husband and father, and HE IS DEAD, so no reason to talk about intimate matters.
And Stefano himself was not a "public" person, so to know such details has not any importance for history

 

[seto]

No one forced albert to become a parent there is birth control for men he chose not to use it.

 

[libra65]

Somehow, I feel bad for the Grimaldi family having Andrea as the heir presumptive until (if) Prince Albert has (legitimate) children. I saw a headline saying that Prince Harry was going to go to Iraq. Both Prince Rainier and Prince Albert were in the military. All the English princes have been in the military, whatever their rank in succession. Now, we have an almost 23 year-old young man who only has a trip with AMADE on his resume to qualify him to rule a country. He acts like an adolescent, we don't know whether he studies, what he studies, where he studies, even whether he passed his bac or not, everything is rumor and speculation, most of the time he looks unkempt, seems to utterly lack in self-discipline and an awareness that appearances matter when your may have to take a country's destiny into your hands. What is going on ? If I were a Monegasque, I'd be worried. Sure, he may be sowing his wild oats, but some official statement should come before his 23d birthday as to how he plans to serve his country or simply work at something for heaven's sake, instead of making silly faces with his girlfriend in Vogue. I know this post will upset his fans, and I'll be told that he can't be compared to the English princes, but can we possibly compare him to his grandfather and uncle, or even father ? Whatever Stefano's faults might have been, he showed intiative (didn't follow up in his mother's or wife's footsteps for lack of something original to do), showed courage and discipline in sports, and was always the perfect gentleman in dress and manners as husband to a princess. Can Andrea possibly do the same as son of a Royal Princess and nephew of a ruling Prince ?
If I write this, it's because I care. I care about Monaco, I care about the Grimaldis.

Quick question. Are Monagasques required to do service in the French military? I know a lot of countries have mandatory service although in the US it is all voluntary. Just curious.

 

[Ghislaine]

As far as I know (but I might be wrong) military service isn't compulsory for the Monagasques. However, should their fancy take them there, they are allowed to serve in the French army. Monaco itself has no army, but it has a lot of policemen and -women. (Most of them French, I believe).

And with regard to the topic of this thread, so far I haven't seen much commendable behavior from all three Casiraghis. From what I've seen and read I have them down as spoilt rich kids à la Paris Hilton & co. For that matter, they should get along well with Charlene. They are more her age than Albert is anyway. I think we'll just have to hope that Albert will live to a ripe old age as Monaco might really have succession issues when he dies... But governments have always managed to work around and survive bad rulers, so maybe there's some hope yet.

 

[iloveroyals]

I totally agree with you.
Nevertheless, Monaco should not be compared to the UK. To rule Monaco you should be glamorous enough to attract glamorous people, it is a place of well living, and I think that Monaco residents would never care at all of Andrea going in Irak or not going. Monaco residents live a good life, and their ruler has to be in this frame. A good liver going to F1, Bal de la Rose, Bal de red Cross, and taking care about safety in Monte Carlo. Why he has to go in Irak? Did someone of the residents go in Afganistan, or Irak, or Indonesia after the Tsunami??
Prince Albert went to army, but out of this, during the last 20 years what was he doing? Going to his office and doing sports, that's it.
Andrea is a golden boy, he lives like a golden boy, like ALL the other boys of his "world". Lateron He will go to his Monaco office, spend some hours per day, and that's it. Prince Albert is young, normally speaking Andrea, IF he rules Monaco he wont rule it before his 50s - 60s !
And I sincerely think that we do not anything about Andrea, because he is doing nothing. He did not have his bac, he may just passd through a light "school" ann now he is partying, travelling and going around with Tatiana.

Fandesacs, I appreciate your take on this. I guess, the problem I have is that Princess Grace and Prince Rainier worked very hard at making Monaco not just a place full of glamour, for the rich, but a more socially aware, connected, respectable place. As he took the throne, Albert also announced that he was going to clean up Monaco from its laundering business or from the rumors of corruption, stressing transparency, really articulating giving Monaco a new, modern, moral image. I believe Monaco was accepted in the U.N fairly recently. Caroline took the mantle on her shoulders with her emphasis on international charity work, (not to mention her other passion, culture), making sure that her children would stay out of the media limelight so they could study, reflect and behave like other normal kids, preparing them for future responsibilities. Albert intensified his work with the environment. Caroline wants not only to be accepted and respected by the Gotha but also be taken seriously by heads of states, including President Bush to whom she wrote a semi-political letter (which unfortunately he didn't bother to answer.) This is the work of a caring, socially and politically intelligent generation and I am sure we can thank Rainier and Grace for their enlightened ideas. Now, given Caroline's own values, I feel bad that her first-born is not showing any understanding of the last two generations' ambition to give Monaco its legitimate place on the international scene. I find his lack of political awareness disturbing and not in keeping with our particularly complex modern times.

However, I remain optimistic. Perhaps it is just taking him a little longer than expected to grow up. And Pierre, on the other hand, seems to have a good head on his shoulders. And Charlotte, past a somewhat wild phase she is perfectly entitled to considering how hard she's been working so far, will certainly rally to her mother's expectations.

 

[brother]

iloveroyals I agree with everything you said and I wish i had your optimism and hope regarding andrea's potential to step in his uncle's footsteps one day. But somehow I don't think he will all of a sudden change his priorities and start focusing on preparing for his potential duties, it is too much catching up to do. I don't see that he's willing nor able to do such a job. If he wanted he would have proved it by now. When is he going to start school again , at 30 years old? Don't know why, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him ceding his seat to his brother.
heirs are trained since childhood, they receive a certain education, are thought about their future duties and responsibilities, even prince Albert admitted that his first official duty happened when he was six and that his parents, when he was a child, where often telling him about his future role.
We see how charles has raised his oldest son, same with the king of spain, etc. they started to prepare their successors very early. This may very well be andrea's problem, the fact that he didn't grow up like the others knowing that he has certain responsibilities and has to act accordingly. I really hope albert will have an heir rather sooner than later or legitimize his son who is still at a good age where he can learn and be prepared for such a role(however I don't see european gotha accepting a prince who's not white). I just don't see caro's kids doing the job, they are too disconnected from the real world, and take things too much for granted.

 

[iloveroyals]

Brother, I must admit that I wonder sometimes how he could hold his own in a conversation with his peers in the Gotha (by which I mean, not to treat him unfairly, not with heirs to the throne but say, the younger brothers (or sisters) of heirs to the throne), for he seems to have given up on his education four years ago. Again, this is pure speculation, for nobody seems to know whether he pursued any kind of studies or received any kind of degree. Frankly, I don't understand why Monegasques don't demand to know. If I were living in a country, with a potential heir to the throne, you bet your bippie I would want to know what qualifies a potential heir to his task, and I would think it natural to know what the children (young adults really) do. The whole notion of being a public figure or not strikes me as irrelevant. Time and again, you hear Monegasques say that the royal family is like family (their family) to them. Well, we usually know what the members of our family, even extended, to pursue the analogy, do in life. The idea that the media will hound them if people know where they study doesn't hold water since we know what other royal families' children do. It is partly what makes them exciting, that they prepare for a world moving toward more progress, more communication at light speed, just as other students do in western countries or from privileged backgrounds. They are the elite, whether they want it or not and as such the least they can do is keep up with the rest of us. Andrea's behavior strikes me as not only disrespectful toward what his family is trying to stand for in the 21st century, but also eerily old-fashioned, as if he were living in a different era, say circa 1920, 1930. I suppose there are psychological reasons for it and he may outgrow this phase, but as you said, there'll be a lot of catching up to do ! And parenthetically, I found the photo in Vogue (kissing Tatiana) not fun and cool, but in bad taste, doing his already tarnished image a disfavor and I resent magazines exploiting these young people. I guess I am old-fashioned too in my own way.

 

[maya35]

Personally, I don't have anything against Andrea. But, I definitely don't think he is a good heir for Albert. And the problem, in my opinion, is not even that we don't know if he is getting a degree or not. Today, university education often does not prove intelligence or hard work. Just let me remind you that George Bush has done a degree in Yale and went to grad school at Harvard. Even if Andrea would have a bac, his behaiviour certainly is not of the future head of state. I find it funny, how apparantly he is keen enough on his privacy to kick a photographer on the street, but considers it fine to go to high-profile events, pose on the red carpert or for Vogue photos. It seems that he uses all the advantages of being born into a royal family without actually having to do anything. So far he hasn't shown any interest in Monaco apart from glamorous parties. His charity trip could certainly give him some credibility, but, unfortunately, it seemed to be followed by long months of partying, instead of further involvement in the cause, which makes it seem a little bit fake now. And I think that the whole "I'm such a rebel" image works only for those who have something to rebel against. In the end of the day, Andrea & co come across as privileged rich brats, nothing more, degree or no degree (again, this is just my opinion, since I don't know either of them). Saying that, I quite like him. He is certainly amusing. He looks good. But I certainly hope he is not going to be the next Prince.
I hope I didn't offend anyone with that, this is just my point of view on the matter.

 

[Bahamagirl]

I have said this several times on another forum. I think that little Alexandre is going to be the best reared and best educated one of the Grimaldi male clan. I think that when he grows up his father is going to have to make some tough unpopular decisions when he sees the way his son is raised as apposed to how his nephews are raised.

I hope Albert will get married, but somehow I will believe that he will marry the day that he announces his engagement. It does not seem that he will ever get married. Alexander I hope grows up to to be the Barak Obama in France. Would'nt that be something. The first mixed race President of France. I am rooting for my handsome baby Alex.

 

[iloveroyals]

I have a great idea, that will combine both dynastic monarchy and democracry. When Albert has to be replaced by an heir, the Monegasque people will vote for who they think is the fittest to rule among all of the siblings' children (Caroline, Albert and Stephanie), legitimate or not. Let's bring a little competition in here !

 

[sashajones]

Handsome baby Alex will not be the the first mixed race President of France and certainly not the first mixed heir of Monaco. Andrea is a good choice and the only choice as Albert's heir, this is until Albert and Charlene gets married and produce their own children. JMO

 

[sirhon11234]

But it would be somewhat unfair if albert got married and had kids with charlene. And their children would be in line to the throne. While Alex and Jazmine are not. Those two might feel a bit inferior to their younger siblings.