Languages spoken by Nicholas, Alexandra and Family

[ChatNoir]

What proof? Where is your proof that Nicky took German lessons?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I've read it in several books about him. I do not have time to go dig them all out and rummage through hundreds of pages trying to find just the right words, (maybe you do but I don't) but I'm sure I'm not the only person who has seen references to the languages he studied.

 

[AGRBear]

....I am not saying Alix and her siblings weren't fluent in German, of course they were, but it wasn't the language they chose to use in their personal conversations and diaries....

This is my point. They were fluent in German. And, you are right, they chose to use other languages. I never said otherwise.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

As for the Tsar understanding German, here is a snippet from von Nidda's book:

The Emperor, on being told of this letter, (from Count Eulenburg) commanded Count Fredericks to read it to him, and the latter proceeded to do so in the original German. His Majesty at once stopped him, saying, "Read it in Russian, I do not understand German."

Surly Count Fredericks knew Nicholas II's abilities in languages and would have known if Nich. II could or could not speak German long before he read a letter from Count Eulenburg. If it is true, it's the first time I've ever heard that Nich. II couldn't speak German. Although, it would make sense that Nich. II might not have learn German in his early years since his father Alex. III was trying to Russianize Russia during his reign. At that time, some of my realitives were forced to Russianize their German names because Alex. III wanted Russians to dominate everything from the army down to the local govt. officials.

We do know Nich. II's dominate language was Russian.

Who was his nanny and what language did she speak?

AGRBear

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Very good question about the nanny, does anyone know?

I really thought I'd read several places that Nicholas studied English, French, German, and Danish (his mother's language) but he never mastered Danish, so maybe he never mastered German, either. Again, since the Germans he was most in contact with, such as Alix and Willy, used English, it was easier for him to avoid German.

In the autobiography of Sandro, (which I do not have to quote) there was a passage about how he and all his brothers had to study all those languages and were punished for making mistakes.

On a side note about languages, in Felix Y's book, he told how when he was a child, he and his brother, while they did learn languages, thought it awful that Russians would speak to each other in a language other than Russian, and they refused to do so. When some of their mother's society friends addressed them in French, they'd answer back in Russian. They would speak French to the French or other foreigners, but not to other Russians.

 

[Furienna]

Who was his nanny and what language did she speak?

¨
I'm not sure, of course, but she was probably either Russian or Danish (since Nicholaus's mother was Danish).

 

[ChatNoir]

Nicholas had an English nanny, Elizabeth Franklin, and at the age of 8, he started English lessons with Mr. Heath, a Scotsman.

 

[Furienna]

I see... Thanks...

 

[ChatNoir]

Most likely the language was English and the Bolsheviks didn't know the difference.
it's not likely they'd be able to distinguish between western European languages.

Avdayev was born in 1887 in a small village on the outskirts of Ekaterinburg. Together with his sister Augusta, he attended the local grammar and secondary schools, and seems to have been an educated man. (FOTR)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Going to local grammar and secondary schools does not guarantee you'll learn languages. Most Americans never take one, or even if they do, forget it, as apparently Nicholas did German, though he was highly educated. Also as you know I remain skeptical of any info that is exclusive to FOTR, but since you like it so much, remember the line where they had to take foreign letters to an official to read? This shows you no one in the house had a workable use of the languages.

And speaking of languages, the patient I was with tonight (Alzheimer's again) was Hungarian, but would blurt out words in English or Hungarian randomly now that she's lost her mind. (and getting angry when you don't understand, and no one did) I had been incorrect in mistaking Hungarian for German, though German is the one foreign language I have been exposed to in my life through many German brides who came here as brides of military men, many friends of the family.

 

[ChatNoir]

I did not learn any foreign languages until I was 14. But believe me, I could tell the difference between English, German, French and Italian at a very early age. And with all those Europeans living in Ekaterinburg, it is only natural that most people there could distinguish between the different languages without being able to understand or speak them. I think Americans are the only people who are completely in the dark when it comes to foreign languages, never having had a real need to learn them.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Well Chat, whether or not I believe you, none of this, or my personal experiences, prove what Nicholas, AA, AN or the Bolsheviks knew. But it's ridiculous to say that Americans are the only ones who don't pick up foreign languages, I'm sure there are people in Russia who are no better at it. Just having foreigners in Ekaterinburg doesn't mean every person in town would know the languages if they had no reason to speak to the foreigners. I sure haven't picked up any Spanish though my WalMart is full of immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala, and the old lady at work hasn't made me skillful in Hungarian. People only learn the langauge if there is a reason to, not just because a person who speaks it happens to be around town.

Not all Americans are bad at languages, my niece is fluent in Spanish and is spending her last year in college as an exchange student living with a family in Spain. She's been all over Europe, Paris, Rome, but hasn't picked up any other languages just from being there.(but her experiences also do not prove what Nicholas, AN, or the Bolsheviks knew!)

 

[ChatNoir]

Well Chat, whether or not I believe you, none of this, or my personal experiences, prove what Nicholas, AA, AN or the Bolsheviks knew.

Sorry, we have already established, without doubt, that all the Grand Duchesses took serious German lessons all the way to Tobolsk. Their own workbooks testify to that. But according to people close to them, they did not speak German very well.

 

[ChatNoir]

Well Chat, whether or not I believe you, none of this, or my personal experiences, prove what Nicholas, AA, AN or the Bolsheviks knew. But it's ridiculous to say that Americans are the only ones who don't pick up foreign languages, I'm sure there are people in Russia who are no better at it. Just having foreigners in Ekaterinburg doesn't mean every person in town would know the languages if they had no reason to speak to the foreigners. I sure haven't picked up any Spanish though my WalMart is full of immigrants from Mexico and Guatemala.

And I am not talking about picking up languages, just being able to tell the difference between the various ones.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Sorry, we have already established, without doubt, that all the Grand Duchesses took serious German lessons all the way to Tobolsk. Their own workbooks testify to that. But according to people close to them, they did not speak German very well.

We have established that though Nicholas studied German for years, as a grown man he admitted to not being able to understand it (at least according to one book) and that many other people take lessons and don't remember a word. We have also established that everybody who knew the family said they never used German.

 

[Penny Royalty]

I keep on delightedly reading insights that represent an allusion to answers that may make sense into being regardful about the happenings of the true nature of the matter at hand. I not only get involved with the descriptions about history but the inclusion of the overall knowing you dispel when turning to this section of our beloved Royals. Coming here I learn about inclusions and acclamations and declarations that are informing and array my viewing of my own life. For instance, I was so pleased in what has been said here recently about languages that it has inspired me to get closer to Spanish. I read it, talk it but I don't invest in it. I thank you for helping me journey further into taking time and reading Spanish newspapers. I'm realizing how wonderful and beautiful it is. I'm not forgetting it and I am inspired to learn more through your depictions here. Maybe at sometime later I'll learn Italian, or German or Swedish. Chat Noir what do you say about the Swedish language. I think I remember that you lived there or Norway. If I may ask, what language do you think is a good one?

In truth I can't help but enjoy reading your assertions. They include quite the wealth of knowledge and dedication. I'm glad that you are trying to bring an awareness towards enlightenment and satisfaction in truth portrayal. Of course there is leverage on to one side and if both sides have a little bit of truth then maybe you will argue for a long time still. Good luck in all that. I'm sure you mean only to make sense to one another and that is fine. Bless you in all your workings.

 

[Furienna]

Wow... I don't know what to believe anymore.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Sorry, we have already established, without doubt, that all the Grand Duchesses took serious German lessons all the way to Tobolsk. Their own workbooks testify to that. But according to people close to them, they did not speak German very well.

The grand duchesses didn't take serious lessons they took minor German lessons. Only Olga and Tatiana took very little German lessons during captivity. You say that they had many schoolbooks in German and yet you don't have any photos of them. How can we know they existed if, we don't have any photos of it?

I did not learn any foreign languages until I was 14. But believe me, I could tell the difference between English, German, French and Italian at a very early age. And with all those Europeans living in Ekaterinburg, it is only natural that most people there could distinguish between the different languages without being able to understand or speak them. I think Americans are the only people who are completely in the dark when it comes to foreign languages, never having had a real need to learn them.

Just because you can tell the difference between the four languages doesn't mean you understand them all. There are Americans who speak two langauges fluently. I know a lot of people who speak Spanish and French very well in the USA...

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

Most Americans never take one, or even if they do, forget it,

But AWF, we are not talking about Americans. We are talking about Europeans who do tend to study more languages - they have to due to the proximity of foreign countries. It is well known that Americans have always been more isolationist (even today for example the vast majority of Americans allegedly don't have a passport as they don't travel outside the Continental USA ) so they are less likely to study languages. In my job I see CVs from European students who speak 3, 4 or even 5 languages fluently. Even 100 years ago, a European was dozens of times more likely than an American to be able to distinguish between different languages even if they didn't have a proper knowledge of them.

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

The grand duchesses didn't take serious lessons they took minor German lessons. Only Olga and Tatiana took very little German lessons during captivity.

...

AE, as has already been stated, Gilliard's own timetables showed that all the girls studied German several times a week.

You say that they had many schoolbooks in German and yet you don't have any photos of them. How can we know they existed if, we don't have any photos of it?

...

I'm not sure what you are saying here - that you don't believe the schoolbooks exist or that they don't show all the girls studied the language fairly seriously? The schoolbooks were presented as evidence during the trials and are in the possession of the authorities in Hamburg. I think Berenberg-Gossler would have protested strongly during the trial if he felt that they did not show what was claimed. Or are you saying that newspaper accounts of the Trials (and indeed the Trial records themselves) are incorrect when they talk about either the content or the very existence of these books?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

AE, as has already been stated, Gilliard's own timetables showed that all the girls studied German several times a week.

The girls did NOT study German. Olga Alexandrovna and Sophie Bux stated that the girls did NOT speak German fluently. There's no evidence of the girls having schoolbooks in German. Gilliard himself said he never heard any of the Imperial family uttering a word in German.
Chapter XVI-- Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna
All the Grand Duchesses were very Russian in their outlook and ideas. Their only experience of foreign countries had been in short visits to Darmstadt, and once to England, and they preferred life in their own country to anything else. They always spoke Russian among themselves and to the Emperor, English to their mother, and French to M. Gilliard. The elder girls had a smattering of German, but spoke it with difficulty; the younger ones and the Tsarevich did not know it at all.

From Gilliard:
"I have several times heard the Tsarina charged with having preserved sympathies, predilections, and a warm corner for Germany when she was on the throne. The unfortunate woman in no way merited these strictures, which she knew of and made her so unhappy. Alexandra Feodorovna was German neither in spirit nor in sentiment. She never was."
Her Majesty talked English with them, the Tsar Russian only. The Tsarina spoke English or French with the members of her suite. She never spoke in Russian (though she spoke it pretty well ultimately) except to those who knew no other language. During the whole period of my residence with the Imperial family I never heard one of them utter a word of German, except when it was inevitable, as at receptions, etc.

Olga Alexandrovna:
My nieces knew no German at all. Mrs Anderson did not seem to understand a word of Russian or English, the two languages all the four sisters had spoken since babyhood. French came a little later, but German was never spoken in the family.

I'm not sure what you are saying here - that you don't believe the schoolbooks exist or that they don't show all the girls studied the language fairly seriously? The schoolbooks were presented as evidence during the trials and are in the possession of the authorities in Hamburg. I think Berenberg-Gossler would have protested strongly during the trial if he felt that they did not show what was claimed. Or are you saying that newspaper accounts of the Trials (and indeed the Trial records themselves) are incorrect when they talk about either the content or the very existence of these books?

Ferrymansdaughter, you and ChatNoir say that there was German schoolbooks that the children wrote in. I've asked to see photos of it and ChatNoir said that he can't get any photos of them. Nothing more than hearsay.Olga Alexandrovna, Gilliard and Sophie said that the girls did NOT speak German fluently.I don't believe that any of the girls knew German well enough to speak it fluently. There's no solid evidence. Well, without photographs, and proof from OTMA's tutors I don't believe the girls spoke and wrote in German fluently. It could have been schoolbooks someone else wrote up, and claimed that they were that of the Imperial children. There's so much evidence that proves that OTMA did NOT speak German. How about showing me the exact newspapers and sources? All I'm just reading hearsay...and not enough facts and proof. We are getting into the discussion of Anna Anderson, again. Dr. Gunther Von Berenberg-Gossler, was right for what he did. Anna Anderson is nothing but a fraud because of her manners, non-royal look and he even said she looked like an menial cleaning lady. He knew AA was FS anyway.

Yes, I'm saying that the schoolbooks in German did NOT exist! The only reason people continue to say that OTMA knew German, is so that people can have a reason to say Anna Anderson was Anastasia. It is very obvious that she is not. Without solid evidence, that can NOT be proven.

But AWF, we are not talking about Americans. We are talking about Europeans who do tend to study more languages - they have to due to the proximity of foreign countries. It is well known that Americans have always been more isolationist (even today for example the vast majority of Americans allegedly don't have a passport as they don't travel outside the Continental USA ) so they are less likely to study languages. In my job I see CVs from European students who speak 3, 4 or even 5 languages fluently. Even 100 years ago, a European was dozens of times more likely than an American to be able to distinguish between different languages even if they didn't have a proper knowledge of them.

There are plenty American college students who go to foreign countries in Europe to study more languages.I know someone who went to France and speaks Spanish, Gernan and French very fluently. You are right, that Europeans do study more foreign langauges than Americans. I was just saying that there are many Americans who study a lot of foreign languages...

 

[ChatNoir]

Please read "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson" by Peter Kurth. There you will learn that Ian Lilburn was allowed by AA's lawyers to purchase a lot containing the imperial childrens' schoolbooks at a London auction. The purchase was mainly made in hopes of finding a fingerprint from Anastasia. The books are now a part of the German State Archives. They clearly showed that the Grand Duchesses took serious German lessons all the way up to the time in Tobolsk. But nowhere is it stated that they spoke German fluently.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

But AWF, we are not talking about Americans. We are talking about Europeans who do tend to study more languages - they have to due to the proximity of foreign countries. It is well known that Americans have always been more isolationist (even today for example the vast majority of Americans allegedly don't have a passport as they don't travel outside the Continental USA ) so they are less likely to study languages. In my job I see CVs from European students who speak 3, 4 or even 5 languages fluently. Even 100 years ago, a European was dozens of times more likely than an American to be able to distinguish between different languages even if they didn't have a proper knowledge of them.

Duh. As I explained in a post a page or so back, we're not talking about western Europeans who live in close proximity to several languages and are exposed to them frequently. We're talking about Russians, a hundred years ago, living in remote regions, hundreds of miles from even Moscow and St. Petersburg. These people would be far less exposed to languages than the Americans of today, they didn't even have TV, internet, or common international travel. Also add the fact that most of the Bolsheviks were poor and uneducated, some even illiterate.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Please read "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson" by Peter Kurth.

Sigh..... Chat, it's very obvious your entire reason for trying to push this German thing is because that's the language used by AA, while AN would have used Russian, English and French. It's the same thing as J Kendrick trying to claim Alexei didn't have hemophilia because Tammet didn't. It's absurd that the only two live, active threads on this forum are still based on claimants, even though all bodies have been found, making it pointless.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir
Please read "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson" by Peter Kurth. There you will learn that Ian Lilburn was allowed by AA's lawyers to purchase a lot containing the imperial childrens' schoolbooks at a London auction. The purchase was mainly made in hopes of finding a fingerprint from Anastasia. The books are now a part of the German State Archives. They clearly showed that the Grand Duchesses took serious German lessons all the way up to the time in Tobolsk. But nowhere is it stated that they spoke German fluently.

If the girls didn't speak German, how can they write in it fluently? That just doesn't make any sense. You're only trying to make everyone look Kurth's book so you can try to prove that AA was Anastasia. That's the only reason that you and Ferrymansdaughter are trying to prove that OTMA knew German. Since, AA knew German. There are many photos of the girls schoolbooks in English, French and Russian. But, NOT German. The girls did NOT take German lessons at Tsarskoye Selo. OTMA's tutors state that they didn't have any German lessons. Chat, you think Kurth's resources are the best, but they aren't. He didn't know any of the imperial famiyl or met any of OTMA. It's always best to back up resources, from the tutors,family and friends of OTMA. Information from people who actual knew the Imperial family and taught them languages are the best resources to prove points. Since, OTMA's tutors clearly stated that none of OTMA knew German there's no point in proving that wrong.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska
Sigh..... Chat, it's very obvious your entire reason for trying to push this German thing is because that's the language used by AA, while AN would have used Russian, English and French. It's the same thing as J Kendrick trying to claim Alexei didn't have hemophilia because Tammet didn't. It's absurd that the only two live, active threads on this forum are still based on claimants, even though all bodies have been found, making it pointless.

Exactly. There wouldn't be any other reason why they're trying to convince everyone that OTMA knew German. They do not have evidence backed up from Gilliard, Gibbes, Sophie or any of the other tutors and friends who knew the family well. They do not want to accept the fact that there is NO evidence of OTMA knowing German. Gilliard himself said I never heard any of them utter a word in German.

 

[ChatNoir]

If you travel to Switzerland and visit the University of Lausanne, you will see Pierre Gilliard's time tables for the Grand Duchesses on display there, clearly scheduling them for a German lesson every day.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

As we have established, lessons do NOT equal knowing or speaking the language. The name of this thread is 'languages spoken by NAOTMAA' and from all evidence, German was not spoken by the family, and Alexandra was the only one who was fluent.

Nicholas: Russian, English, French
Alexandra: English, German, French, little Russian, improving over time
OTMA: Russian, English, French
Alexei: Russian with some English and French

Note that this thread isn't what lessons were taken, or what languages the person may have been exposed to, it's languages SPOKEN.

Thank you Anastasia Evidence for posting the quotes from those who knew the family. It's a shame they had to be posted again, but Chat is repeating the same quotes and questions and they have to be answered multiple times, just like in the AA thread.

 

[ChatNoir]

As we have established, lessons do NOT equal knowing or speaking the language. The name of this thread is 'languages spoken by NAOTMAA' and from all evidence, German was not spoken by the family, and Alexandra was the only one who was fluent.

So lessons do not equal knowing or speaking the language? Well, personally, I am living proof of the opposite. And according to Avdayev and his assistant, the Tsarina spoke German with her daughters in captivity.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Thank you Anastasia Evidence for posting the quotes from those who knew the family. It's a shame they had to be posted again, but Chat is repeating the same quotes and questions and they have to be answered multiple times, just like in the AA thread.

ChatNoir continues to ignore my evidence. I gave him enough information to prove that OTMA didn't know German. It just isn't enough, because he just wants to continue to believe that OTMA knew German. We are going in circles over again, posting the same information and accounts multiple times. There really has to be a reason ChatNoir continue saying they spoke German! I think it's because of Anna Anderson. Please lets end the discussion about German langauge, because there's obvious evidence that proves the girls didn't know German. I don't want to repeat myself, and go back in circles.

So lessons do not equal knowing or speaking the language? Well, personally, I am living proof of the opposite. And according to Avdayev and his assistant, the Tsarina spoke German with her daughters in captivity.

ChatNoir, you said that so many times and it really doesn't make a difference since Alexandra and her daughters were NOT allowed to speak any other langauge than Russian during capitivity in Ekateringburg. It is the same thing about when you try to say that Anna Anderson spoke French "someone heard her spoke French" without any resource or concrete evidence to back that up.

 

[Furienna]

Yes, it seems like we're going around in circles. I don't know who to believe.