Identification of the remains found in 2007: Alexei and Marie (Coble, 2009)


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Thanks, bear, those are macabre but interesting.

About Nicholas's arms, I think I read somewhere that he had partially fused with Trupp over the years and it would never be fully known which bones belonged to each man unless each bone was individually DNA tested which is unlikely.

The Tsar and his footman, one in death. Perhaps that is the ironic symbol of the revolution.
 
ferrymansdaughter said:
I have never read anything about Anastasia's head being missing - or indeed anyone's head being missing at the time of burial etc. Can you give us more information about this report?
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I found it, the quote I already posted, about the bayonet thrust to the face, was from page 232 of "The End of the Romanovs" by Victor Alexandrov. I just drove back to the library and found the same old ragged copy I had checked out back in the mid 70's when my fascination began. Sure enough, this was the source of the bayonet/missing head story.

page 233: (words of Piotr Voikov)

..before the bodies had been thrown on the pyre and sulphuric acid poured on them, Yurovsky wanted to satisfy himself that everything was done properly. He approached the macabre heap of human remains- heads, arms, legs, trunks, and rummaged for a quarter of an hour. Then he said "I think something is wrong." I was on edge. "Come on, let's finish." I said, and he gave the orders for the bodies to be thrown on the fire. The next day I asked Yurovsky what he meant by what he had said, and he replied that he had failed to locate the head with the bayonet thrust, the head of the youngest Grand Duchess.

So, now this has me wondering (not about claimants or escapees), was this just the remains of Alexei and Anastasia, because we now know there were only two bodies chopped up and burned, not all of them. Again, Anastasia is mentioned by name here, added to Ermakov's naming 'the youngest daughter Anastasia' being burned along with Alexei, making the case even stronger it was she who was burned (and missing until last year) and not Maria. However, Ermakov made no mention of a head being missing. So was it missing or not? (I'd believe the head was missing before the entire body) Can anyone clear this up?
 
I'd take anything Ermakov said with a grain of salt. He was drunk that night and then told several different stories and supposedly "the truth" on his death bed. (King and Wilson's FOTR)
May be macabre, AWF, but we're on a fact finding mission not unlike CSI so everything must be looked at carefully and studied in the same manner.
 
The head story was from Piotr Voikov. While everything may not be totally accurate, where there's smoke, there's fire (sorry for the pun) and it does look like we see several accounts of Anastasia being burned to none for Marie. A friend on another forum who's fluent in Russian is busy translating the original Yurovsky notes and she said he never mentions which woman was burned by name, just Alexei and another body. There is nothing about him mentioning Demidova. He probably didn't know one girl from the next, especially in the condition they were in.
 
There are plenty of testimonies where Yurovsky does mention that they had burned Demindova instead of Alexandra.

For the life of me, I can't understand how any these men could make a mistake and tell us they burned either Demindova or Alexandra, two middled aged women who's figures would inform these men they were not youthful, which evidently the body was, if it was either Anastasia or Maria.

I believe the original note, also, tells us that Yourovsky claimed he burned just one body, not two.

By the way, Yurovsky notes have already been translated by several people.

AGRBear
 
AGRBear said:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g139/AGRBear3/ArmBonesNicTruppMaples.jpg

Nicholas II #4
Trupp #9.

So, where are the arm bones of Nicholas II's? AGRBear
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Anna was Franziska said:
Thanks, bear, those are macabre but interesting.

About Nicholas's arms, I think I read somewhere that he had partially fused with Trupp over the years and it would never be fully known which bones belonged to each man unless each bone was individually DNA tested which is unlikely.

The Tsar and his footman, one in death. Perhaps that is the ironic symbol of the revolution.
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AWF,

You can see the bones in the photo. Are they fused with other bones?

Since Trupp was a tall man and Nicholas II was shorter, Maples realized the arm bones just didn't belong to Nicholas II.

AGRBear
 
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Anna was Franziska said:
I found it, the quote I already posted, about the bayonet thrust to the face, was from page 232 of "The End of the Romanovs" by Victor Alexandrov. ..... However, Ermakov made no mention of a head being missing. So was it missing or not? (I'd believe the head was missing before the entire body) Can anyone clear this up?
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Thanks - I've never read this book. I note that Sarah Miller's review of it at the AP says there are a number of errors, photos are mislabeled and it isn't very unreliable. If his is the only account to mention the head missing, I'd take it with a pinch of salt. The problem is that every account seems to be different.

Yurovsky's "Memoirs from 1922 (taken from K&W site) states that ​

"I ordered that we begin the burning with Alexei. We laid his body down and soaked it with gasoline and quickly set it on fire, just to see if it would work, since no one knew how to go about this. {then a bit about digging the grave]....It was already morning. It was not possible for us to burn any more of the bodies, for the farmers and workers were beginning to be about, and therefore, we had to bury the remaining bodies in the grave. "​

However, his 1934 account posted on the AP refers to burning Alexei and Demidova. ​

What really bothers me about this whole thing is where's the rest of the body or bodies? More than one experiment has shown that it is simply impossible to burn a human body down to anything but a big, still recognisably human, mess in the time they had. Even if they had chopped up the bodies (sorry to be so graphic) they could hardly have scattered limbs, heads, torsos around without fear of discovery so they would have to have buried them all.​

If I get time, I will have a look at Massie & FOTR tonight as well.​
 
Has anyone provided us with the information on the DNA/mtDNA which shows us there are four grand duchesses with four different markers?

The short answer is no. The actual details of the testing have yet to be released and are not now expected until the publication of that still much-anticipated final report... whenever that may be.
 
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Does anyone have all the photographs and information on each of skulls and sets of bones? please post it here.
 
No, I mean of the original remains. Then maybe they can reconstruct the daughters and finally find out who's missing!!
 
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It is on just such a reconstruction of skulls done back in 1992/93 that the Russians now base their opinion that the missing daughter is Marie.

JK
 
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Are there pictures that we can look at of them?
 
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I still think the easy way would be to take all the four DNA codes recovered from the daughters and compare their codes. Each daughter would have a similar DNA match but not quite the same to each other. Therefore if there is four different but very similar matches this would show there are four individuals who were daughters of the Tsar and therefore all accounted for. If one is missing then there would be a problem.
 
I would also like to see four nuclear profiles, but I don't think it would ever stop the conspiracy theorists. Look at what they're saying now. Three girls were found in one grave, one in the other. The Bolshies tell us one was burned first, the other three thrown in the hole. This means the only way the burned hip bone recently tested could belong to one of the other three is if one of them took it out of the hole, which was the second grave (burned pit being the first), burned it to match, and reburied it in the burn hole! Sorry but that is preposertous! (in a long line of preposterous theories) < ed sort-of-personal comment: Warren >
 
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Cool! Thanks! :flowers:I had forgotten that site.
 
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Sorry, the link I provided doesn't work so I'll have to go find it.... It was an article on the remains found in the mass grave that was collected by the scientists.

AGRBear
 
Here is the html text for the article in Volumn 285, Issue 1, Pages 15-32, Lev L Koesnikov, Gurge A. Pashinyan, and Sergey S. Abramov's report which includes photographs, sketches and why they think the missing body is GD Maria and not GD Anastasia.
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies
Published 2 March 2001.

In their conclusion they wrote:

>>There is broad agreement among the osteological studies by Popov ([1994], [1996]), Zviagin and Zinin ([1987]), Maples and Browning ([1994]), and those reported here. We all agree on the identifications of the Tsar, his wife, his retainers and his daughters Olga and Tatiana. The only significant difference is whether the missing daughter is Maria or Anastasia. Genetic studies confirm the osteological identifications as far as they are able to determine. These studies confirm the gender assessments of the skeletons, identify the Tsar and his wife specifically, and identify his three daughters generally. Unfortunately, the genetic studies are unable to specifically identify the Tsar's daughters individually.<<
 
While the quote may be correct... the facts of the quote are not.

In truth, the Russian and American forensic teams have agreed on the identification of only one daughter... that Body Three is Olga.

The US forensic team insists to this day that Body 5 is Maria and Body 6 is Tatiana. The Russian team continues to insist that Body 5 is Tatiana and Body 6 is Anastasia. So, in actual fact, the US and Russian teams still do not agree, either, on which of the bodies is Tatiana.

As a result of this same very clear disagreement over the identification of Bodies 5 and 6, the reality of the matter is that the missing daughter could just as easily be Tatiana as it could be either Anastasia or Marie.

JK
 
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Here is an example of just part of the wood would have been needed to have burned the bodies, which would have left just burned the skin, melted the fat and left two burnt corpses still in tact without having done anything but scorched the bones. For more details, take a look at a forensic web site and they can provide you with the details.

My quote is found on AP as my own forum:
[quote author=1 post_id=906 date=1194715577]Some poster suggested it would have taken atleast a cord of wood to have burned two bodies:

>>While waiting for the dishwasher man, let me present the photo with the two half cords of wood:


WoodStackW.jpg


Noitce that the wood has been split .

AGRBear<<

>> Notice the uncut pile of wood behind the two neatly stacked one half cut and split cords of wood:

uncutWood.jpg


AGRBear<<

PS Forgot to add this important information about the wood:

>>1 cord of uncut season wood weighs between 2,500 and 3,500 pounds which is a lot of weight the exhausted men had to find and carry back to the where they claimed they burned the bodies<<
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I for one do not believe AA was GD Anastasia, so, I'm not trying to convince anyone that she was. My concern is the evidence being presented by the Russians from 17 July 1918 to the present. I'm only looking for the truth of it all. I don't care where the truth takes me.

AGRBear
 
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Did they use wood or a combustible chemical, like gasoline? Need much less of that.
 
AGRBear said:
it was not possible to burn pork or human bodies to ashes in the time frame given to us
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Being a a bog for 90 years would have a hand in disentigrating and dissolving much of what was left, don't you think?


What Anna claims is her opinion.
AGRBear
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It is not my 'opinion' that DNA proved AA was not AN, and that all five children have been found. This is proven fact.

I'm only looking for the truth of it all. I don't care where the truth takes me.
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Bear, you've been saying this for years now, but the problem is, when we get answers, you deny them because you don't like the outcome and go searching for oddball conspiracies that give you a result you like better. This means you do not want the truth, you want the game to be played again and again until your side wins, or is kept in perpetual confusion by your wild goose chase.
 
Anna was Franziska said:
Bear, you've been saying this for years now, but the problem is, when we get answers, you deny them because you don't like the outcome and go searching for oddball conspiracies that give you a result you like better. This means you do not want the truth, you want the game to be played again and again until your side wins, or is kept in perpetual confusion by your wild goose chase.
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AWF, I would suggest you go to Bear's site: RomanovsRussia :: Login She has gone into minute detail over EVERYTHING. Her site boggles the mind. Everything is dissected and examined. This supports her claim for wanting the truth. Nobody who didn't want TRUTH would go into this much detail. They would be more than happy to spin yarns.
 
I am well aware of Bear's theories, this is why I posted what I did. Bear does not want the truth, she wants a different answer.
 
Anna was Franziska said:
I am well aware of Bear's theories, this is why I posted what I did. Bear does not want the truth, she wants a different answer.
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I don't know, the evidence about the amount of wood it would take to burn a couple of kids' bodies is pretty darned compelling. . .. :ermm:
 
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