German Royal and Noble Titles & Protocols

[k8e86]

This is quite close to home for me I have been doing research and eberhard graf was a noble at some stage or considered one hence the reason why my great grandmother Catherine fredricka Graf called my grandfather fredrich Eberhard your highness something graf. he has now passed away I have discovered they were quite prominent family in the military however in the reign of hitler they revolted against him with the anti nazi group due to the poor treatment of their own soldiers they were not jewish and were not in prison camps to the best of my knowledge. They fled germany so that my grandfather aged 17 did not have to join hitlers army as my grandfather was in the special military school age 12. I pressume if he was to return to germany he would of been in alot of troublee and possibly killed.

I have found info linking them to politcians in that day and further back 200 years Eberhard Graf was of some noble ranking located in the wikipedia. It is very hard to decifer the exact origin and how far back it goes as I do not speak german nor understand it in written language. any finding on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[David Lewis]

i wonder if anyony could explain the difference between the use of Baron and Frieherr.

I have been researching the descendents of the electress Sophia and note that there are several instances where many generations are Barons and then there is a change to Frieherr.

Are the terms interchangable?

 

[Saschana]

Kind of, Baron and Freiherr are of equal ranks. If a family head is Baron or Freiherr was determined by patent of nobility and the GHdA (basically same as the Gotha). But in everyday life the Freiherr was often addressed as Baron.

 

[kbk]

Actually, you can call a freiherr a baron, but not backwards.

 

[Baron Montreuil]

German Titles

Hello Everyone,

I am coming to terms with German titles [forgive my ignorance] and have come across the term "Freigraf". May I ask if this is in a similar vein to "Freiherr" or is it something altogether different. GOOGLE isn't very revealing here and I wondered if a German speaker could advise?

Best wishes

Baron Montreuil

 

[Catherine J]

I am not a German speaker, per se, but I can tell you that broken down the word means (frei) "free" and (graf) "count". What I cannot tell you is what that means in the context of traditional German titles.

 

[Meraude]

According to Wikipedia:
Freigraf Free Count Frei = free (allodial?) + Graf; both a feudal title of comital rank and a more technical office
Source: Graf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The technical office seems to have to do with being a judge at the Vehmic courts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehmic_court

 

[Baron Montreuil]

Yes, thank you. I have no sense of whether Freigraf is a title [peerage] or whether or not it is a designation for a position at court. There is some idea that it may be a feudal title and that is fascinating. In the UK we have feudal comital titles often found in Scotland and Freigraf may be similar. Any German speakers out there?

 

[victor1319]

Freigraf: The German Wikipedia claims a Freigraf was the chairman of a medieval court, the so called Femegericht. Every commoner was able to get appointed as a Freigraf too. Graf So it is no feudal title. There were other non-feudal Grafs too, for example the Graf responsible for the water dams, the Deichgraf.

 

[Meraude]

It seems that the Frei in Freigraf have a connection to being a Freeman, not a serf, being a member of what in England was called the Franklins, Franklin (class) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[kbk]

A freiherr or freigraf, meaning free lord and free count, was an immediate subject of the Emperor in the Holy Roman Empire and not anyone else. It was a high privilege for those who held status of a freelord. Imperial immediacy was a kind of sovereignty among the nobles of the HRE. Those houses that held imperial immediacy during the Empire were later considered equal with rulling houses of Europe. It was a case when a dynastic or morganatic nature of a marriage between a royal and a noble was considered.

 

[Huguenot]

What is the proper closing in German for a formal letter (an invitation) to a member of the Imperial Families of Austria or Germany?

 

[nithsdale]

It had been cleared out on the first pages of this thread what is the difference in titles between "von" and "zu". But what about "zur"? It's used in Lippe title. Why "zur"?

 

[principessa]

Here is an interesting report about titles and successions in Germany after WW1:

Wie aus: Prinzen: Fürsten: werden | MAIN-POST Nachrichten für Franken, Bayern und die Welt

Google Übersetzer

 

[Tilia C.]

It had been cleared out on the first pages of this thread what is the difference in titles between "von" and "zu". But what about "zur"? It's used in Lippe title. Why "zur"?

"Lippe" is the name of a river, and in German, like in some other languages, the names of rivers (unlike cities or countries) are used with articles. Now, “zur” is the contraction of “zu” (=to) and the feminine article (as the Lippe is feminine). So basically “zur Lippe” means “to the Lippe”.

 

[MarNoe]

Really, in this day and age does it truly matter? And they certainly are not by any stretch of the imagination "ruling" families. And didn't I read somewhere that in Germany titles such as "Prince" have been declared illegal? Is this true?

 

[Seraphine]

A book by a Countess of Brühl (noblesse oblige) it's said that noble women who marry commoner loose their noble status for the time of the marrriage and are cut out of the family (if the family is still very traditional). So may be his sisters didn't want to face that - esp. because the eldest sister of the Prince don't seem to be integrated in the family (married noble, but divorced and remarried a commoner).

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I've read that in Germany and Austria, royal and noble titles aren't recognized by the government, e.g. Archduke Otto of Austria was known as Mr. Otto von Hasburg, despite the fact that he was the pretending Crown Prince. (The current pretender to the Austrian Throne is simply known as Mr. Karl von Hasburg.) As a German example, the Prince of Prussia is known as Mr. Friedrich von Pressuen. I think Alexander would be known as something like "Mr./Herr Alexander von Isenburg", although I'm not completely sure on this one.

 

[Seraphine]

Really, in this day and age does it truly matter? And they certainly are not by any stretch of the imagination "ruling" families. And didn't I read somewhere that in Germany titles such as "Prince" have been declared illegal? Is this true?

Prince is not a title anymore but a part of the name:

Legal name of Alexander: Alexander Prinz von Isenburg -> Prinz of Isenburg is the full last name like Miller or Huntington-Whitely.
Noble name (used in nobility and magazines and as a sign of honor on invitations etc.): Erbprinz Alexander von Isenburg

 

[Seraphine]

In Austria it's just the family name without titles like Habsburg, Windisch-Grätz or Traun.

 

[Tilia C.]

Really, in this day and age does it truly matter? And they certainly are not by any stretch of the imagination "ruling" families. And didn't I read somewhere that in Germany titles such as "Prince" have been declared illegal? Is this true?

In Germany the former titles are now seen as part of the family name, so it figures in officials documents, but it gives the wearer no special legal status. In Austria neither the former title no the words “von” or “zu” figure in legal documents, they are not considered part of the name.

Of course they are not a ruling family, and the old laws of equal marriage have no legal standing anymore. But that cannot keep conservative people from sticking to the old traditions. It is obvious that many of the old noble families try to influence their children when it comes to the choice of spouse.

These families make sure that their children grow up in close contact with other young people from their social group. So of course love matches between them do happen. E.g. I have the impression that the match between Sophie and Georg Friedrich is based on a very strong love.
.

 

[Fürstin Taxis]

A book by a Countess of Brühl (noblesse oblige) it's said that noble women who marry commoner loose their noble status for the time of the marrriage and are cut out of the family (if the family is still very traditional). So may be his sisters didn't want to face that - esp. because the eldest sister of the Prince don't seem to be integrated in the family (married noble, but divorced and remarried a commoner).

There was this one docu about aristo women and their hunt for aristo men, because like you said, they will lose their status if they marry "below" them. Quite sad, but on the other side, we live in post-monarchy Germany...

If the Isenburg parents are really that way, well, I´m glad that Victor gave a hoot.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

There was this one docu about aristo women and their hunt for aristo men, because like you said, they will lose their status if they marry "below" them. Quite sad, but on the other side, we live in post-monarchy Germany...

If the Isenburg parents are really that way, well, I´m glad that Victor gave a hoot.

How do you know that Sophie’s parents had an issue with their brother’s choice of bride?

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Really, in this day and age does it truly matter? And they certainly are not by any stretch of the imagination "ruling" families. And didn't I read somewhere that in Germany titles such as "Prince" have been declared illegal? Is this true?

Well if that’s the case then the threads should close

 

[victor1319]

Multiplication of Royal and Noble Titles in Germany?

Tagesschau online - the website of Germany's most watched news show reports:
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gesetzentwurf-reform-namensrecht-100.html
(In German only, sorry!)

The German law for family names, which was already like anything goes, becomes "anything goer".

Today a law went through the Bundestag, the German Parliament, about family names. In the future - among other possibilities - families can choose the name of the husband OR the wife as family name.

Kids can choose when becoming adults among other possibilities, which name, the name of the mother or the father, they want to have as family name.

This shall be common law in Germany from 2025 on.

Hmm, rather over short than long this will lead to a lot more Nobles and Royals by name only in Germany - I am pretty sure.

 

[doro]

Tagesschau online - the website of Germany's most watched news show reports:
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gesetzentwurf-reform-namensrecht-100.html
(In German only, sorry!)

The German law for family names, which was already like anything goes, becomes "anything goer".

Today a law went through the Bundestag, the German Parliament, about family names. In the future - among other possibilities - families can choose the name of the husband OR the wife as family name.

Kids can choose when becoming adults among other possibilities, which name, the name of the mother or the father, they want to have as family name.

This shall be common law in Germany from 2025 on.

Hmm, rather over short than long this will lead to a lot more Nobles and Royals by name only in Germany - I am pretty sure.

What's bizarre if "Kramp-Karrenbauer" would turn "Krambauer"

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It has been possible since 1976 to choose the name of the husband or the wife as the family name; see Article 1355 of the Civil Code.

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_bgb/index.html

But apparently it will soon be possible for couples to assign their children the names of both parents, which creates greater flexibility.

Hmm, rather over short than long this will lead to a lot more Nobles and Royals by name only in Germany - I am pretty sure.

All nobles and royals are by name only in Germany, since nobility was abolished by the Weimar Constitution of 1919 and the titles transformed into legal surnames.

 

[victor1319]

It has been possible since 1976 to choose the name of the husband or the wife as the family name; see Article 1355 of the Civil Code.

Hi, Tatiana Maria! I looked it up!

The Law of Names is §1617 BGB for parents without a family name. Here in §1617 I: Name of Mother or Father for the kid, as the parents wish.

The Law of Names for the case of a Marriage is § 1355 BGB I - Yep, they can choose the family name freely - So, you are right, as always.

Makes you wonder about the quality of the Tagesschau! This news show is in Germany like "The Pope is speaking!", the ultimate truth... So, thank you for ponting out their failure!


BTW I am not implying, you are the Pope now, I just state, you have an exellent ability with legal norms!

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Royal watchers often say that adoptive, female-line, etc. descendants of deposed royal families have "no right" to succession or titles because they never had those rights under the laws that were in place when the monarchy still held power. I very much disagree with that view, but if we are to accept that argument, then the Count of Paris is right because in the days when France was still a Kingdom, the country's marriage laws were based upon the rules of the state church, i.e. divorce was not legal.

His following the historical legislation of the Kingdom of France is in the same category as the behavior of, for example, the numerous heads of German ex-royal families who continue to exclude their family members outside of legitimate male lines even though the civil laws of the Federal Republic of Germany have granted equal succession rights (even to titles) to daughters and illegitimate children.

The German government didn’t give equal rights to successions after the monarchy was abolished, they simply allowed the titles to be last names

So in other words, the governments gave equal rights in successions ... (since, after the conversion of titles to last names, the succession to such names was opened to all children regardless of legitimacy and paternal or maternal line).

And the laws of succession to property (also equalized) are separate from the laws of succession to names.

and allowed them to be diminished by allowing anyone including people who are not related to noble or royal families to use them.

No, surnames cannot be taken by "anyone" under German law; one would have to be related.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

So in other words, the governments gave equal rights in successions ... (since, after the conversion of titles to last names, the succession to such names was opened to all children regardless of legitimacy and paternal or maternal line).

And the laws of succession to property (also equalized) are separate from the laws of succession to names.




No, surnames cannot be taken by "anyone" under German law; one would have to be related.

Tbh, it is up to the family on who inherits what, the German government as far as I am concerned do not care about who is head of the house or which member inherits what. Yes the inheritance law about children inheriting equally or being entitled to some percentage of inheritance is done.

Then explain the “adoptions” of people like Frederich von Anhalt (Hans Robert Litchenberg)? The Anhalt Princess who adopted him didn’t adopt him to be a mother to him. She adopted him for money because she was broke. They weren’t related by blood or marriage either. He’s also gone on to adopt 35 people unrelated to him.