Duke and Duchess of Sussex, Current Events 2: April-September 2020

[Durham]

Anyone who was born, grown up in or is currently living in a former colony is more than aware of the effect historical colonialism has had on our people and our countries.

Thank you for your perspective. The carefully choreographed visit by The Queen, her attendance at the Garden of Remembrance, her agus a chairde & her speech at Dublin Castle showed how things should be done. Issues over past colonial actions are too sensitive & too political to be left to sloganeering individuals.

 

[poppy7]

Anyone who was born, grown up in or is currently living in a former colony is more than aware of the effect historical colonialism has had on our people and our countries. We are all still today so what impacted by that British colonialism. Furthermore, I can assure you that, in my own country at least, there is very much an expectation that formal apologies be given for the atrocities carried out by the British here - indeed in former PM David Cameron’s opinion he personally has issued one in Westminster. However, we also recognise that in the interest of moving forward as nations in this globalised economy that its best to not allow the past to prevent future alliances.

What is not helpful, to anyone, is an over privileged benefactor of the systematic privilege for a small few that arose out of that colonialism playing at being ‘woke’ in an attempt to appear relevant to the Americans fighting to finally end, at the least, the systemic racism in their country. A couple who go around calling themselves Duke and Duchess, highlighting in their press release that they are still members of the royal family, that Harry is still 6th in line to the throne and have kept their place in order of precedence joining in any discussion on the removal of systemic privilege and racism is a joke.

Yes to this. You don't have to tell people from a former colony what the effect that colonisation had. We see it everyday but neither would I suggest that we look at it as a simplistic issue. The reasons for racism in the USA are different from that history in the UK. They are vastly different and manifest in different ways.

Bottom line is that Harry, unlike other members, of his family does not listen to the voices of other people. That was a prepared bit and not at all in response to what the very impressive young people were saying.

 

[Amelia]

Thank you for your perspective. The carefully choreographed visit by The Queen, her attendance at the Garden of Remembrance, her agus a chairde & her speech at Dublin Castle showed how things should be done. Issues over past colonial actions are too sensitive & too political to be left to sloganeering individuals.

Yes the Queens visit was a major success and a prime example of diplomacy at its best. The political actions that had to happen for this visit to take place in 2011 began in the 1990s. It was something that many, many people had worked very hard on. It’s not as simple as saying ‘oh we need to talk about this’, there can be serious consequences for those living in these former colonies if people without real knowledge of the political, social and historical issues at play start wading in with their on trend ‘woke’ opinions.

As a side note: for me I would also add her visit to Croke Park given the actions of the British there which many attribute to being the beginning of the end for British rule in Ireland. Especially when a few years prior to her visit,during renovations to the Irish soccer teams usual stadium which had them temporarily based in Croke Park, there was major public debate on whether or not God save the queen should be played at an Ireland game against England. I believe the England team were even shown a documentary about the history of Croke park before they came over for the game.

 

[Alison H]

I don't think it's very fair to say that Harry and Meghan don't know anything about history - we don't know what they do or don't know - or to say that coming from a privileged background disqualifies someone from making a comment about racism. However, I don't think it was a helpful thing for Harry to say. He's like people who post a load of "woke" articles on Facebook or Instagram, not because they've got any comment to make about them but just for the sake of trying to prove how "woke" they are.

 

[Curryong]

Actually Harry has been many times to countries in Africa including Lesotho, as well as travelled on tours to Australia, NZ, Oceania and the Caribbean. I would suggest that is more than most of us commenting here have done, and IMO it has given him a wider perspective, especially of African countries in the Commonwealth and its peoples. Harry is more than entitled to speak on racism and colonialism in light of his regular visits to Africa since his teenage years, IMO and long may he continue to do so.

 

[poppy7]

I don't think it's very fair to say that Harry and Meghan don't know anything about history - we don't know what they do or don't know - or to say that coming from a privileged background disqualifies someone from making a comment about racism. However, I don't think it was a helpful thing for Harry to say. He's like people who post a load of "woke" articles on Facebook or Instagram, not because they've got any comment to make about them but just for the sake of trying to prove how "woke" they are.

I can be fairly confident he doesn't know much. Even his basoc school education wouldnt have been great. I don't know about her but her understanding about British history and the various, diverse nations of the Commonwealth, is not going to be extensive.

People witheare good level of knowledge do not make platitude comments.

 

[poppy7]

Actually Harry has been many times to countries in Africa including Lesotho, as well as travelled on tours to Australia, NZ, Oceania and the Caribbean. I would suggest that is more than most of us commenting here have done, and IMO it has given him a wider perspective, especially of African countries in the Commonwealth and its peoples. Harry is more than entitled to speak on racism and colonialism in light of his regular visits to Africa since his teenage years, IMO and long may he continue to do so.

I fully support Harry in his extensive charity work in Lesotho. Where he has done great deal humanitarian things. That he really knows anything about the lives of people in these countries I would dispute. Unless showing up, planting a tree and listening to a kid read is a real understanding. Important work to highlight the work of others. But not real understanding.

 

[Curryong]

Harry spent two months in Lesotho in 2004 in his gap year. I'd say he gained some understanding of the country then. He has been back many times since, sometimes on private visits. I read of him helping to construct buildings such as Sentebale club houses there. Harry also been to adjoining countries, where Sentebale operations have expanded and has helped move herds of elephants and other animals in conjunction with wildlife experts there, spending weeks on private visits in the European summer. That's far more than planting a tree on a brief PR visit.

 

[Mbruno]

I think it is fair to say that Harry has visited several Commonwealth countries in all continents and , therefore, has some kind of hands-on knowledge about those countries and life therein.

I don’t think , however, that he has a deep understanding of the institutional framework of the Commonwealth or its history, much less the broader history of the British Empire. Meghan probably doesn’t either. My experience is the British history is only superficially studied in the US and, when studied at all, there is a strong bias.

 

[poppy7]

Harry spent two months in Lesotho in 2004 in his gap year. I'd say he gained some understanding of the country then. He has been back many times since, sometimes on private visits. I read of him helping to construct building such as club houses there. Harry also been to adjoining countries, where Sentebale operations have expanded and has helped move herds of elephants and other wild animals in conjunction with wildlife experts there, spending weeks on private visits in the European summer. That's far more than planting a tree on a brief PR visit.

Sounds like lots of gap years doing voluntertourism. Common as mud. I wouldn't compare them to actual humanitarian workers like those in such organisations as medicine san frontiers. He has money and platform to get peoples voices heard, good for him. He did it very well. But those days are gone. And that isn't what he is talking about now, he is talking about racism. And all he does do now is plant trees and listen to kids read when he goes.

 

[poppy7]

I think it is fair to say that Harry has visited several Commonwealth countries in all continents and , therefore, has some kind of hands-on knowledge about those countries and life therein.

I don’t think , howevet, that he has a deep understanding of the institutional framework of the Commonwealth or its history, much less the broader history of the British Empire. Meghan probably doesn’t either. My experience is the British history is only superficially studied in the US and, when studied at all, there is a strong bias.

He doesn't really. Like the Queen who thinks all places are spotless and there are no such thing as misbehaving children or dirt. He knows what he sees and while,is work in Lesotho was very real and I believe he saw many real life concerns and did highlight many issues, that is few amd far between.

 

[Amelia]

Actually Harry has been many times to countries in Africa including Lesotho, as well as travelled on tours to Australia, NZ, Oceania and the Caribbean. I would suggest that is more than most of us commenting here have done, and IMO it has given him a wider perspective, especially of African countries in the Commonwealth and its peoples. Harry is more than entitled to speak on racism and colonialism in light of his regular visits to Africa since his teenage years, IMO and long may he continue to do so.

No, a million times no. As a man who has never experienced racism, as a person who has never experienced the long reaching implications of British colonialism Harry is most certainly not ENTITLED to speak on it. As a person who’s entire privileged existence is based on the rewards of that colonialism Harry will never be ENTITLED to speak on racism and colonialism. How any open minded educated individual in 2020 come to hold the beliefs that visiting a country would in any way lead to substantial understanding of the multifaceted complexities of racism and colonialism is beyond me. Harry’s continued insertion of himself into this discussion displays a deep lack of self awareness on his part.

 

[tausi]

Actually Harry has been many times to countries in Africa including Lesotho, as well as travelled on tours to Australia, NZ, Oceania and the Caribbean. I would suggest that is more than most of us commenting here have done, and IMO it has given him a wider perspective, especially of African countries in the Commonwealth and its peoples. Harry is more than entitled to speak on racism and colonialism in light of his regular visits to Africa since his teenage years, IMO and long may he continue to do so.

You got to be kidding!!!! I am lost for words.

 

[Curryong]

A speech by Prince Charles on a Commonwealth visit to Ghana on behalf of the Queen in which he speaks in part about the horrors of the slave trade there in which Britain participated and which should be acknowledged.

Prince Charles – 2018 Commonwealth Speech – UKPOL.CO.UK

Incidentally Harry and Meghan visited Dublin, saw public statues commemorating the Great Famine, and were told stories about that terrible time by their guide, at which I remember, Meghan became visibly moved. Even visitors can learn, remember and absorb from the history of other countries.

 

[poppy7]

A speech by Prince Charles on a Commonwealth visit to Ghana on behalf of the Queen in which he speaks in part about the horrors of the slave trade there in which Britain participated and which should be acknowledged.

Prince Charles – 2018 Commonwealth Speech – UKPOL.CO.UK

Incidentally Harry and Meghan visited Dublin, saw public statues commemorating the Great Famine, and were told stories about that terrible time by their guide, at which I remember, Meghan became visibly moved. Even visitors can learn, remember and absorb from the history of other countries.

Really? I have visited concentration camps. Many. Should ai lecture the German government on it.

And that is entirely the right space for Charles to make such a speech. Qnd wouls have been drafted and redrafted for diplomacy and tact.Harry's call with the QCT was not. That is not the basis of the conversation.

This is what I get annoyed with. I have sat in loads of conversations with people discussing the Irish issues over and over again. Some who had never been there and when they ask the actual Irish person in the room what she thinks actually look chrest fallen when i just say. It's a complex situation and recommend some documentaries or books

 

[Curryong]

You got to be kidding!!!! I am lost for words.

I'm a citizen of an ex collection of Colonies which became a Commonwealth country (Australia) am very much aware of the history of this country and its European settlement, and yes I do believe that Harry had a right to say what he has.

 

[Amelia]

Charles made a speech on behalf of the Head of the Commonwealth- ergo on behalf of the commonwealth - on their decisions and efforts to navigate their colonial histories. Harry has appointed himself as an unqualified gatekeeper on what former colonies should do with regard to this history. Big difference and it’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

As for your comment on their trip to Dublin - really, I mean really. They saw statues and Meghan was visibly upset hearing about the time in Irish history when the British government exported all Irish crops to other parts of the empire and left the Irish to starve. So what now they are authorities on the matter, they have now should be given a platform to advise on how we should deal with this part of our history in our dealings with the UK. All from that one visit - WOW!!

 

[Mbruno]

A speech by Prince Charles on a Commonwealth visit to Ghana on behalf of the Queen in which he speaks in part about the horrors of the slave trade there in which Britain participated and which should be acknowledged.

Prince Charles – 2018 Commonwealth Speech – UKPOL.CO.UK

Incidentally Harry and Meghan visited Dublin, saw public statues commemorating the Great Famine, and were told stories about that terrible time by their guide, at which I remember, Meghan became visibly moved. Even visitors can learn, remember and absorb from the history of other countries.

Yes, Britain was a major player early on in the transatlantic slave trade and, later, in the 19th century, it became one the major forces in the world driving the suppression of the slave trade, even employing its military assets ( chiefly the Royal Navy) to that end. The late British Empire was not a slave empire In fact, countries like Australia and Canada barely had slaves if any .

The late empire had a bad record though, I think, of dealing with native peoples , but that doesn’t seem to ttract the same public attention.

I am still trying to figure out though how H & M have associated any of this to the Commonwealth , which was created only in the 20th century. Do they for example equate the Commonwealth to the Empire ?

 

[tommy100]

I think there is a different from 'knowing about it' and 'approving it'. TBF what could they do, if they had asked the comments to be taken out that would have been sold as the Royals being racist.

I completely respect peoples rights to speak out about racism but personally would leave it to people who have experienced or do experience it now rather than those who are upper class and white with all the privilege life can bring.

I'm also of the belief that people now can do more good by ensuring we learn the lessons of the past to help inform and change the future. I hear a lot of talking - from a lot of people (which coincidentally gets a lot of headlines) - I see little action.

 

[Amelia]

I'm a citizen of an ex collection of Colonies which became a Commonwealth country (Australia) am very much aware of the history of this country and its European settlement, and yes I do believe that Harry had a right to say what he has.

You are a citizen of a country that only exists in its current form as a result of colonialism. Perhaps opinions on Harry’s ‘rights’ should be derived from the indigenous peoples who suffered from this.

 

[Curryong]

Did I say the Sussexes were now experts on Irish history? What I said was that all visitors to other countries are capable of absorbing and learning lessons when visiting other countries and of giving their opinions.

And Harry and Meghan were appointed by the Queen to their positions on the Queen's Commonwealth Trust when they were working royals. The facts are that they are still President and Vice President of that organisation by the Queen's permission. If she had not considered them worthy and capable of such, then the QCT would have been withdrawn at the time they ceased being working royals.

You are a citizen of a country that only exists in its current form as a result of colonialism. Perhaps opinions on Harry’s ‘rights’ should be derived from the indigenous peoples who suffered from this.

But aren't indigenous populations sufferings under colonialism exactly what Harry was referring to? (And I am perfectly well aware of the history of my country.)

 

[Eskimo]

I find it sickening that some posters on this thread seem to think that a couple who continually refer to themselves as Royal Highnesses and Duke and Duchess are qualified to talk about colonial history and race relations just because they spent a few days in third world countries being squired around in ultimate luxury.

 

[Mbruno]

You are a citizen of a country that only exists in its current form as a result of colonialism. Perhaps opinions on Harry’s ‘rights’ should be derived from the indigenous peoples who suffered from this.

Yes, Australia, Canada, New Zealand , the United States and, for that matter, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay , and so on , are all countries that only exist as we know them now because of colonialism. All of the above are “ new societies” that were created by replacing the previous native societies with a mainstream European matrix to whuch other elements from other continents were added , for example the African slaves in the southern United States, Brazil or the Caribbean.

Does it follow then that everyone without indigenous descent in the American countries or in Australia and New Zealand or even in South Africa ( like the Western Cape or Gauteng) is automatically an illegitimate invader ? I think we should refrain from that kind of extremism.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, Britain was a major player early on in the transatlantic slave trade and, later, in the 19th century, it became one the major forces in the world driving the suppression of the slave trade, even employing its military assets ( chiefly the Royal Navy) to that end. The late British Empire was not a slave empire In fact, countries like Australia and Canada barely had slaves if any .

The late empire had a bad record though, I think, of dealing with native peoples , but that doesn’t seem to ttract the same public attention.

I am still trying to figure out though how H & M have associated any of this to the Commonwealth , which was created only in the 20th century. Do they for example equate the Commonwealth to the Empire ?

The vast majority of countries in the present Commonwealth were colonies in the previous British Empire. Their colonial histories are part of their pasts and that was what Harry was referring to.

And if you don't think Australia had slaves I suggest you read up on the conditions under which Kooris were employed on outback stations right up until the 1960s. Plus the importing of labour from islands in the South Pacific into Queensland sugar plantations from the 19th century onwards until the mid 20th century. It might not have been called by the formal name of slavery but ...

 

[Mbruno]

But aren't indigenous populations sufferings under colonialism exactly what Harry was referring to? (And I am perfectly well aware of the history of my country.)

Not necessarily. African-Americans for example are not an indigenous people to the America’s and they continued to be mistreated or discriminated against long after countries like the United States had ceased to be colonies. Keep in mind for example that the British Empire abolished skavery long before the US did.

I don’t see any focus on H&M’s message. It is just a generic rally against any form of inequality or discrimination. It could apply to a 17th century colony, or 19th century India, or an immigrant community in 21sr century London.

 

[Curryong]

I find it sickening that some posters on this thread seem to think that a couple who continually refer to themselves as Royal Highnesses and Duke and Duchess are qualified to talk about colonial history and race relations just because they spent a few days in third world countries being squired around in ultimate luxury.

Harry's work in Lesotho and other African countries comprised far more than 'a few days in third world countries in ultimate luxury.' He has spent a considerable amount of time working on projects in Lesotho for example, as has been discussed upthread.

 

[Amelia]

Duke and Duchess of Sussex, Current Events 2: April 2020-

But aren't indigenous populations sufferings under colonialism exactly what Harry was referring to? (And I am perfectly well aware of the history of my country.)

Curryong I don’t know if you’re being deliberately obtuse or if you genuinely don’t understand why Harry needs to keep out of this but let me explain why I have a problem with him. As someone from a former colony which suffered horrifically for hundreds of years under English rule, I can tell you the impact of colonialism is felt long after independence is won and will continue to be felt I believe for many generations into the future. Our current relationship with the uk and the peace in NI has taken a long time to achieve. But at times is appears to be a tenuous one. There are political, social and economic issues involved and when people start making uneducated comments things get heated very quickly. All of those in former colonies know our histories, know the wrongs carried out against us but we have found a way to cooperate as nations in the name of economic prosperity. Does the past need to be acknowledged, absolutely but let it be handled with deference to the ties we have all formed since independence. Let it be felt with by those in the nations who have experienced and understand the suffering caused by the British empire. What is not helpful is a British prince, the very embodiment of colonialism and how they benefited from raping our counties, tell us how we need to address our histories.

 

[Pranter]

Anyone should be able to speak against the evils of racism regardless if they are the dustman or a prince, it's both their histories. Whole lot more ppl benefited from racism than just Royalty (whatever country they were from).

This idea that you can't speak unless you meet X criteria is ridiculous. There's a whole bunch of academia that has no business teaching then.



LaRae

 

[Amelia]

Yes, Australia, Canada, New Zealand , the United States and, for that matter, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay , and so on , are all countries that only exist as we know them now because of colonialism. All of the above are “ new societies” that were created by replacing the previous native societies with a mainstream European matrix to whuch other elements from other continents were added , for example the African slaves in the southern United States, Brazil or the Caribbean.

Does it follow then that everyone without indigenous descent in the American countries or in Australia and New Zealand or even in South Africa ( like the Western Cape or Gauteng) is automatically an illegitimate invader ? I think we should refrain from that kind of extremism.

As was evident by my comment it was a reply to the poster quoted so I don’t appreciate the deliberate misinterpretation on your part. But so that you’re in no doubt yes only the indigenous population of Australia can talk of the impact the original colonisation of their land had on them. If the discussion is about the impact of the use of Transportation for criminals by the British empire then that widens the discussion participants and again if you wish to add economic migration to the discussion that widens it even further. Let me put it this way if you want to find out about the racism experienced specifically by a black person who are you going to ask to participate in the discussion? All persons of colour or just back persons.

 

[Curryong]

I am not being deliberately obtuse at all. You as a citizen of a former colony that split from the UK decades ago but still bears the scars of British rule, believe that Harry should keep out of commenting on colonisation and racism. I understand but disagree with your stance on this.

Ireland suffered more what Harry would no doubt call 'institutionalised racism' than Australia did, with the exception of the last decade of the 18th and first half of the 19th centuries when the British Government sent convicts to Australia to work out their sentences. Many became free settlers later, however.

It is true that we did not have rebellions or formal wars here in Australia between British and independence fighters, in contrast to Ireland, though there were several uprisings and killings between blacks and whites on our frontier. Our indigenous population was treated horribly however throughout much of our history and still endures prejudice of several kinds.

However, I would suggest that in Australia it was primarily white settlers who massacred blacks and not British forces, nor was it done in the name of the Crown or the British Govt. Quite different to the history of Ireland. I agree with Harry's stance on the subject of racism within the Commonwealth (former Empire) and believe he has a right to speak out on the issue.