Charles III: Coronation Information and Musings - Part 1

[Somebody]

It would not bother me if he did indeed give up on a coronation and have a simple investiture as many king have been doing now for a while. I live in teh UK and as such, I dont want to pay out for a large ceremony.

To which investure (or inauguration) are you referring as 'simple'? There are quite some differences between them. I wouldn't consider Willem-Alexander's inauguration 'simple'. That was full of ceremony (but imho appropriate for this day and age), while Belgian had a much smaller ceremony (both for Albert and Philippe); the Luxembourgian includes thrones for the whole family, while the Spanish ones includes a parade from parliament to the palace. All of them seem to include taking an oath in front of parliament and a balcony appearance of the new monarch and his immediate family (spouse and children) to wave to the people.

 

[Denville]

This already sounds more nuanced. You cannot compare 1953 with now, but the way you always state your opinion makes it sound as if he should make-do with a ceremony comparable to a trip to the register office. And that is what I oppose.

Second bolded part is obvious, but among the same taxpayers as you are also those who do want a big ceremony.

AKA it isn't as black and white as you present it.

Of course there are people who would like a big ceremony a la the olden days. but IMO and according to polls, they are a fairly small segment of the UK's population. If they want to pay for a larger ceremony, they can certianly do so, I wont be watching it and I dout if Charles really wants a long tiring ceremony at his age,

 

[Lilyflo]

The evidence from the poll points to the majority of the UK wanting a more modest coronation and I'm in agreement. I do, however, want a coronation with the gold coach, horses and uniforms processing up and down a union flag bedecked Mall. I want military bands and crowds waving flags. I hope the ceremony has wonderful music, traditions and gravitas but have it all finished within an hour. I want a subsequent balcony appearance with Charles & Camilla in crowns, William in uniform, Catherine in a tiara and their children. Working royals with their spouses can then join them on the balcony for an RAF flyover plus the Red Arrows. All the other royals and children can still watch the display from the windows or the palace garden.

 

[wbenson]

I agree and I also think some diplomatic communication with the realms might have taken place re: the logo. There's room for more flowers in addition to the four UK ones but that doesn't mean they have to be there.

I assume it will be like the jubilees, where the countries that want to have their own commemorations will just design their own logos for them.

 

[Skippy]

The evidence from the poll points to the majority of the UK wanting a more modest coronation and I'm in agreement. I do, however, want a coronation with the gold coach, horses and uniforms processing up and down a union flag bedecked Mall. I want military bands and crowds waving flags. I hope the ceremony has wonderful music, traditions and gravitas but have it all finished within an hour. I want a subsequent balcony appearance with Charles & Camilla in crowns, William in uniform, Catherine in a tiara and their children. Working royals with their spouses can then join them on the balcony for an RAF flyover plus the Red Arrows. All the other royals and children can still watch the display from the windows or the palace garden.

This sounds beautiful. It doesn't have to last hours, but I do want something substantial with everything that belongs to it. I quite like your idea!

The 'more modest' part does make me wonder: what does it mean? What should be left out at Charles' coronation that was included in Elizabeth's?

 

[Lilyflo]

This sounds beautiful. It doesn't have to last hours, but I do want something substantial with everything that belongs to it. I quite like your idea!

The 'more modest' part does make me wonder: what does it mean? What should be left out at Charles' coronation that was included in Elizabeth's?

I think the carriage procession of all the foreign heads of state and royalty should be cut. We don't need processions by commonwealth troops, just the UK ones would suffice. The length of the ceremony definitely could be (and will be) cut. There will be significantly fewer guests in the abbey and the balance of social background will be more representative of the current population.

 

[royalwatcher96]

I think we should not worry too much. While it won't match the scale of the late Queen's coronation and there will be some changes in the event, it will still be a great occasion. The British showed just last year that they are still able to deliver pagentry like nobody else.

 

[tommy100]

It will be full of pageantry and precision just fit for a more modern age (whilst also being rooted in history)

 

[tommy100]

The evidence from the poll points to the majority of the UK wanting a more modest coronation and I'm in agreement. I do, however, want a coronation with the gold coach, horses and uniforms processing up and down a union flag bedecked Mall. I want military bands and crowds waving flags. I hope the ceremony has wonderful music, traditions and gravitas but have it all finished within an hour. I want a subsequent balcony appearance with Charles & Camilla in crowns, William in uniform, Catherine in a tiara and their children. Working royals with their spouses can then join them on the balcony for an RAF flyover plus the Red Arrows. All the other royals and children can still watch the display from the windows or the palace garden.

The other members of the family could watch from the balcony inside the quadrangle (from the Green Drawing Room)

 

[sophie25]

The other members of the family could watch from the balcony inside the quadrangle (from the Green Drawing Room)

They wouldn't see anything from there, that balcony just looks over a courtyard. The windows next to the main balcony should be opened, IMO, and the rest of the family could stand at them and watch the crowds, flypast etc.

 

[Durham]

The main cost will be policing & security. Members of the armed forces are paid whether they’re marching in London or on their base. Transporting them to London & back won’t be a major expense. And having units from the realms would be a living reminder of our still existing shared bonds. These matter, especially in this day & age. The symbolism of key western allies being in personal union has real world benefits.

It also makes sense to use all the coaches in the Royal Mews to transport some of the participants. Not much point in having them otherwise. Again, that won’t be an extra expense either.

William iv’s coronation will probably be the template for the actual service. Outside the abbey it may well be a mix of the Golden Jubilee parade, Diamond Jubilee muster & the RAF Centenary flypast.

I think when pollsters ask questions about the coronation many respondents imagine there’s going to be billions spent on unnecessary frippery & new jewels. For a proper perspective the cost of a coronation needs to be understood in the context of government spending. And in the goodwill it can generate for this country. I bet that any costs will be recouped many times over in increased tourism alone.

 

[Lilyflo]

The main cost will be policing & security. Members of the armed forces are paid whether they’re marching in London or on their base. Transporting them to London & back won’t be a major expense.

I'm not sure that's correct because there were grumbles in 1953 that the number of military personnel involved was restricted due to cost so there must be some expenses involved. https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1953/feb/24/coronation-arrangements-cost

It also makes sense to use all the coaches in the Royal Mews to transport some of the participants. Not much point in having them otherwise. Again, that won’t be an extra expense either.

Again, I'm not sure about that because I doubt that all the carriages and horse equipment are in the 1st class condition required for safe transport and pageantry. There weren't even enough carriages in 1953 so I think they hired some from a film studio!

I think it's possible to have a high level of pomp and tradition without going overboard on the cost. We definitely need the gold coach, the Household Cavalry, the Foot Guards and some military bands in the procession along with personnel from the Royal Navy and RAF. It can still be a breathtaking spectacle without using every carriage and many thousands of armed forces. I feel confident that King Charles will pitch it perfectly to provide plenty of pageantry without saddling the taxpaying public with an enormous bill at a time when so many people are struggling with fuel bills and mortgages, and nurses are striking for better pay and conditions. Of course tourism brings in revenue but people can be cynical about whether much of it trickles down to them.

 

[EllieCat]

The evidence from the poll points to the majority of the UK wanting a more modest coronation and I'm in agreement. I do, however, want a coronation with the gold coach, horses and uniforms processing up and down a union flag bedecked Mall. I want military bands and crowds waving flags. I hope the ceremony has wonderful music, traditions and gravitas but have it all finished within an hour. I want a subsequent balcony appearance with Charles & Camilla in crowns, William in uniform, Catherine in a tiara and their children. Working royals with their spouses can then join them on the balcony for an RAF flyover plus the Red Arrows. All the other royals and children can still watch the display from the windows or the palace garden.

I'm perfectly in agreement with you, Lilyflo.

There's got to be a certain amount of pageantry and that sort of thing, otherwise what's the point; the royals might as well be civil servants if that sort of 'magical' stuff is left out.

And I agree with those who say it should be smaller than the 1953 event; those days have gone. It needs to come a little into the 21st century, representing more of today's values and the way we live today, but still retain some of the pomp and ceremony.

And, speaking as a graphic designer, I LOVE the Coronation logo/emblem.

 

[Toledo]

I don't know if there's any information on this but anyone knows if a celebrity director or producer is associated with the event now, like to prepare it to be as a real time documentary style event?

 

[tommy100]

I think it will be smaller in one way that they won't do as they did for the late Queen's coronation and hire carriages, set up new seating in WA and so on. It will I suspect be more a case of using what they have. It will still put on a good show.

 

[Durham]

I'm not sure that's correct because there were grumbles in 1953 that the number of military personnel involved was restricted due to cost so there must be some expenses involved. https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1953/feb/24/coronation-arrangements-cost

An interesting link. Thank you!

In today’s terms £450 thousand is about ten million & presumably covered transport & accommodation/board. But that was for fifty thousand odd troops. There won’t be a tenth of those numbers in May for the simple reason that the British armed forces are barely a fifth the size they were in 1953.

Some thousands of soldiers really won't add any large extra cost. They will be bussed in & as likely as not accommodated in barracks/camps in the London area. If they’re available they might as well be used. The armed forces are popular & well respected by the British people. A good old fashioned military parade is good for morale. Look at what the French do every single year on Bastille Day with anywhere up to ten thousand troops taking part.

Those carriages that don’t pass master I agree shouldn’t be used but those that do would be a splendid site with their horses, outriders etc. Why not use them?

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Do you think that the 1902 State Landau will be used in the Coronation?

 

[Durham]

Do you think that the 1902 State Landau will be used in the Coronation?

If the weather is fine then it could be used for the Wales family. Apart from Prince William who would be riding behind The King's carriage I would think.

 

[tommy100]

Hmm I wonder if William will ride behind. If it were exactly the same as the Queen's coronation I would have assumed he'd be in robes of state in his own procession but it may be it becomes rather like trooping the colour with the Royal colonels behind the King & Queen's carriage.

BTW here is a link to the ceremonial of the late Queen's coronation procession as mentioned in the London Gazette. https://web.archive.org/web/2013120....org/files/Ceremonial of the Coronation_0.pdf

The Queen's procession takes 4 full pages until it gets to HM - even the Treasurer to the Duke of Edinburgh rode in the procession. Looking at this it is easier to see how they could cut down without actually taking too much away from the core of the whole thing.

If there are no robes and coronets are to be worn (or only a few) half of those mentioned won't be needed. The Queen Mother had her robe carried by the Mistress of the Robes who had her coronet carried by someone else and so on it goes adding to the numbers.

 

[VictoriaB]

Hmm I wonder if William will ride behind. If it were exactly the same as the Queen's coronation I would have assumed he'd be in robes of state in his own procession but it may be it becomes rather like trooping the colour with the Royal colonels behind the King & Queen's carriage. .

I would suggest a better guide might be the coronation procession of George V.

When the Queen was crowned, her heir was a minor (4 years old or so I think - please don’t quote me). When George VI was crowned, his heir was female and also a minor. George V is the last coronation where the heir was male and of age.

And theres the problem, we are talking about coronations 100 years apart. Hopefully this years coronation can be a little bit more up to date.

I actually can’t see any reason why William could not ride in the procession in uniform and put robes over his uniform once he reaches the Abbey. The problem I could foresee would be Princess Anne. If her nephew, a Royal Colonel is riding in the Kings procession, I can see Anne, as a zRoyal Colonel, refusing to be confined to a supporting female role. But then again, I can see her being more at home in uniform than a tiara.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

The Personal (royal) Aide de Camps to Queen Elizabeth II in 1953 apart from The Duke of Edinburgh (The Duke of Gloucester and The Earl Mountbatten of Burma) rode behind the Gold State Coach.

Same thing in 1937 when The Duke of Gloucester, The Duke of Kent, The Earl of Harewood, The Earl of Athlone and Lord Louis Mountbatten (who was not yet made an Earl) followed the Gold State Coach mounted…

William is a Personal Aide de Camp so he will most likely ride behind the Gold State Coach.
He will then put on a robe at the Abbey before he processes to his seat, if robes are used…

Maybe The Earl of Wessex will do as well… He’s a great horseman and the only reason he’s not mounted at Trooping the Colour is he is not a Colonel in the Household Division.
But personal Aide de Camps have been mounted at the previous coronations anyway…

Anne was not made a personal Aide de Camp by her mother (though both her husbands was) but she is in her role as Colonel of the Blues & Royals one of 2 Goldsticks in Waiting and as such has always been mounted at Trooping the Colour anyway - and attends the State Opening of Parliament alternately with the other Goldstick (the Colonel of the Life Guards) so she will most likely be mounted as well… And tbh i can even imagine Anne strongly prefering a military uniform over a gown and tiara, no matter how much we all would like her to choose differently…

 

[Lilyflo]

Those carriages that don’t pass master I agree shouldn’t be used but those that do would be a splendid site with their horses, outriders etc. Why not use them?

Yes, I think it would be appropriate to use those carriages currently in service to convey Catherine, the Wales children & the Wessexes. Anne will probably ride.

 

[Drakes]

The 'more modest' part does make me wonder: what does it mean? What should be left out at Charles' coronation that was included in Elizabeth's?

I think there's a discussion to be had about robes and coronets for peers.

There was no such thing as 'life peers' in 1953, so there's no established dress code for them. And it could be perceived as unnecessarily ostentatious for hereditary peers to wear full regalia.

I'd welcome a simpler dress code

 

[Mbruno]

I know many that "wants a big ceremony, remotlely like the coronation in 1953."

Relatively speaking, the average British person was much worse off actually in 1953 than in 2023. It is the political environment and people's attitude/deference towards the monarchy in general that have changed, more so than a matter of economics.

 

[Saragli]

Relatively speaking, the average British person was much worse off actually in 1953 than in 2023. It is the political environment and people's attitude/deference towards the monarchy in general that have changed, more so than a matter of economics.

Agreed, the UK is another world compared to 1953. Leaps and bounds wealthier. Not to discount any current hardships but it doesn't even compare.

 

[victor1319]

Agreed, the UK is another world compared to 1953. Leaps and bounds wealthier. Not to discount any current hardships but it doesn't even compare.

I wonder, if this is true! Back then a family could live from a single income. Now everybody works, some in two jobs, but a lot of folks have difficulties making ends meet.

The tech has become better, that is true. There are now technological marvels in everbody's hand, people back then not even dreamed about.

But technical progress is not necessarily civilisational progress, nor does it mean evrybody is richer now.

What could this have to do with monarchy and the coming coronation? I think this ritual is heartwarming backward. A thousand year old monarchy makes the next step - some things seem to change, some stay the same.

So, the coronation should be a very positive event (but hopefully not to baroque...).

 

[Alison H]

A number of stately homes exhibit the special Coronation chairs used by their former dukes/duchesses etc, but it's been confirmed that no special furniture will be being made this time - another form of slimming things down.

 

[wbenson]

!!!

Queen Mary’s Crown is removed from display at the Tower of London ahead of the Coronation

Queen Mary’s Crown has been removed from display at the Tower of London for modification work ahead of the Coronation of His Majesty The King and Her Majesty The Queen Consort on Saturday, 6th May 2023. Queen Mary’s Crown will be used for the Coronation of The Queen Consort at Westminster Abbey.

The choice of Queen Mary’s Crown by Her Majesty is the first time in recent history that an existing crown will be used for the Coronation of a Consort instead of a new commission being made, in the interests of sustainability and efficiency. Some minor changes and additions will be undertaken by the Crown Jeweller, in keeping with the longstanding tradition that the insertion of jewels is unique to the occasion, and reflects the Consort’s individual style.

These changes will in particular pay tribute to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, as the Crown will be reset with the Cullinan III, IV and V diamonds. The diamonds were part of Queen Elizabeth II’s personal jewellery collection for many years and were often worn by Her late Majesty as brooches.

In addition, four of the Crown’s eight detachable arches will be removed to create a different impression to when the Crown was worn by Queen Mary at the 1911 Coronation.

 

[SLV]

Very interesting. What did Queen Mary's crown look like?

 

[JGio]

!!!

Queen Mary’s Crown is removed from display at the Tower of London ahead of the Coronation

Queen Mary’s Crown has been removed from display at the Tower of London for modification work ahead of the Coronation of His Majesty The King and Her Majesty The Queen Consort on Saturday, 6th May 2023. Queen Mary’s Crown will be used for the Coronation of The Queen Consort at Westminster Abbey.

The choice of Queen Mary’s Crown by Her Majesty is the first time in recent history that an existing crown will be used for the Coronation of a Consort instead of a new commission being made, in the interests of sustainability and efficiency. Some minor changes and additions will be undertaken by the Crown Jeweller, in keeping with the longstanding tradition that the insertion of jewels is unique to the occasion, and reflects the Consort’s individual style.

These changes will in particular pay tribute to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, as the Crown will be reset with the Cullinan III, IV and V diamonds. The diamonds were part of Queen Elizabeth II’s personal jewellery collection for many years and were often worn by Her late Majesty as brooches.

In addition, four of the Crown’s eight detachable arches will be removed to create a different impression to when the Crown was worn by Queen Mary at the 1911 Coronation.

Oh dear, whenever some news on the Coronation comes out, I end up being let down.