Charles and Diana

[Denville]

Who is Michael Fawcett?

One of charles' aides

 

[Lady Nimue]

I understand what you are saying, however I am not sure that everyone agrees that love should be the only reason to get married. Some people never fall in love in the way Diana imagined. Diana wanted romance and to be treated as the heroine of a romantic novel. Diana didn't understand that real love is compromise. it also takes a lot of work to maintain.

Totally agree. She was equating tales of lust with love.

I think that much of the difference of opinion regarding Charles and Diana is that those who believe that Charles was completely at fault put more emphasis on the importance of romantic love in a marriage. Others, like me, believe that a marriage can be happy and successful without romantic love. Both views are legitimate.

An excellent distinction. Never thought of it that way. I think you have stated the definitive parse.

However, what Diana failed to understand is that Charles fell in the second camp. It was obvious to anyone observing at the time that Charles was not just looking for someone he was 'in love' with (although that would have been a bonus), he was specifically looking for someone who would be a successful "Princess of Wales," and all that entailed. But just as importantly, he wanted a companion who shared his interest.

Exactly so. But also, I think people are failing to fully embrace how calculated Diana was in her approach to Charles. Reality check is needed. She knew her sister had lost the prize (for herself, but more particularly, for the Spencer family). She was determined not to do so once the chance came to her. Diana's pursuit of Charles was as much a dynastic/family interest as was Charles' pursuit of a 'suitable' wife. What is being glossed over is how the British aristocracy view marriage in general.

I tend to agree that Charles should have been more explicit with Diana. I think he told her what he was looking for but didn't specifically explain that he didn't love her to the same degree that she seemed to love him. I say "seemed to love him" because I don't think Diana truly loved Charles at that point. I think she had a crush on the Prince of Wales.

I agree here. I am of the opinion that Diana was as clear-eyed about what she was doing as was Charles. This marriage had to do with families, for Charles' dynastic requirements, but particularly for Diana, too, because by this move, she elevated the Spencers out of the mire of scandal, she redeemed the family. She 'lorded' it over Sarah for a time because of this.

Keep in mind that when Diana succeeded in getting a divorce from Charles, and had every social door closed to her in British society, her own family (in the form of her brother) did the same. Recall that he followed suit, in line with societal dictates, and refused Diana (when she asked him) a country house on the family estate. She had no living option but Kensington (though she could have bought her own country house). It is noteworthy. This marriage cannot be understood shorn of it's aristocratic trappings. Nor can Diana be truly understood as a 19 year old. She was a 19 year old with clear instructions in her genes: make a good marriage. Which she did.

 

[Denville]

I dont know what you mean about Diana having every social door shut to her..that was not the case, albeit she did of course lose some approval from Charles's and hte RF's set. And her brother didn't refuse her a country house that simply is NOT the case. He told her that the Garden house which she wanted was not on offer, after having agreed ot it at first because of security concerns. He offered her other houses. Diana got into a temper and refused them because she didn't really care that much about a coutnry house, it was mostly for the boys.

And as for tales of "lust"? Barbara Carltand? really?

 

[Curryong]

Except for friends of Charles's there is simply no evidence that aristocrats and the elite of London Society shut their doors to Diana at all after her separation or divorce. What's more, although I've never read any of the tripe Barbara Cartland produced, it was all in the spirit of high-blown romance, BEFORE any wedding. Cartland never wrote any bedroom scenes or even hinted at sexual titilation between her heroes and heroines at any time.

Who among the Spencers was 'mired in scandal' before the engagement, so much that Diana had to rescue the family reputation? I lived in Britain for a while during their engagement period and I must have been singularly obtuse or unobservant as I can't remember scandal-filled headlines about the Spencer family at all.

Who would be cheering on this strategic move to elevate the Spencers into the stratosphere? Charles S the schoolboy, Earl Spencer, at that time a very sick man, Raine, who at times Diana couldn't stand, the Fellowes, Sarah, who wasn't long married?

In fact, many old aristocratic families, especially those who have Whig forebears, think of the BRF as German 'new arrivals' and regard the royals' Hanovarian ancestry with some contempt. They include the Spencers, as per Diana's reputed remark to Prince Philip about pulling her Prss of Wales title. "My title is older than yours" she is reported to have said. In other words 'I am LADY Diana, a courtesy title from my family who have been in England longer than yours, and you have no say in it.'

The Spencers were proud of their ancestry and how long they had held their estates in Northamptonshire (since 1508 and before.) I hardly think Diana's family were all dewy-eyed about Diana becoming Charles's wife or regarded themselves as 'redeemed' by it.

 

[Denville]

Curryong yes I agree, There was noting to indicate that Diana was cut by the upper classes when she and C separated. She didn't socialise with his own group of close friends, but she had been "not socialising" with them for a long time anyway because she had never really liked his set and had usually gone out with her own pals for many years. Even so, Even if they disapproved of her and gossiped about her, they would treat her with respect if they met her.


And yes there' was no scandal about the Spencers? where did this idea come from? Perhaps becuase of the divorce?
However that woudl hardly be unusual for an upper class couple to be divorced in the 60s - and it seems that the whole divorce was not a "scandal story" in teh way that some divorces were. I dont beleive that the Spencers gave Di ANY great encouragement in her courtship of Charles. People have siad this, but as you say, the Spencers weren't a very united family in that way. Charles S was a kid, his mother was remarried and not around all the time. Johnny S and his wife were not close to Diana, and I don't think her sisters took all that much notice of their baby sister...
Of course they were pleased that she made a good match, but as you say, the upper classes DO tend to think of themselves as just as grand as the RF...I think that Diana was the one who saw marrying the POW as something wonderful that would fulfil her, because she was desperate to find a secure home and family, and I think saw such a marriage as HER way of showing her family and friends that she was not just a silly girl but was capable of being married and a mother and being part of the RF...
If she was marrying Charles in the spirit of "I wnat a grand socialy prominent super rich husband" she would have surely done the traditional upper class thing of marrying a man for his position and then ignoring any other love affairs he had. If she was cold bloodedly marrying for ambition, She would harldy have minded that Charles had a mistress and woudl have ignored his affair with Cam and found a lover herself once she had her children, instead of being upset by his loving another woman and unable to tolerate being married to him.

 

[Queen Camilla]

If she was marrying Charles in the spirit of "I wnat a grand socialy prominent super rich husband" she would have surely done the traditional upper class thing of marrying a man for his position and then ignoring any other love affairs he had. If she was cold bloodedly marrying for ambition, She would harldy have minded that Charles had a mistress and woudl have ignored his affair with Cam and found a lover herself once she had her children, instead of being upset by his loving another woman and unable to tolerate being married to him.

You are assuming Charles was unfaithful before Diana.
There is no evidence this is true. This is just part of the myth.
Did she not take lovers?
Was not Hewitt Diana's lover since at least 1986, he claims as early as 1983 and the according the inquest so was Barry Mannakee and James Gilbey.
Diana: Five lovers named as palace aide is quizzed over her affairs | Daily Mail Online

Diana and her family were chasing after the BRF for centuries. (2-3)
Her namesake chased after a Prince of Wales but his family refused to allow the marriage.
Diana told her classmate she was going to marry Andrew.
At 13 she switched to Charles.
At 16 she told her sister she was better for Charles.
At 17 we have her with Charles.(1)
At 19 she told her flatmates she was getting the top job.

(1) Check out the number of times Diana was with Charles pre1980 and note in Dimbleby book, Charles began dating Diana longer than a few months.

(2) In 1954, John Spencer owned one or two country estates that were not part of Althrop or from his family and his wife owned one so why did the Spencers become tenants of BRF in 1955?
Sarah Spencer was already born when they moved into Park House.

(3) IMO, one of the reasons for the Spencer Roche wedding was because the Spencers wanted closer access to the BRF which is what they got when John Spencer married Frances Roche....Park House.

 

[Curryong]

That namesake who quite liked a former Prince of Wales lived in the 18th century, rather a long time between then and the 1980's!

It was the Fermoys, newly rich with American money and recipients of a 19th century Irish barony ( Ruth Fermoy was the daughter of a Scottish Colonel) who were known to be great friends of the Yorks, (the future King George VI and his wife) and rented Park House from King George V.

John Spencer, Diana's grandfather, wasn't running after any royalty. His main focus always was Althorp and its treasures. He was a cold man and a perfectionist, and his relationship with his only son was rocky.

Johnny and Frances spent the first year of their married life in a house in the grounds of Althorp. They then moved to take over the lease of Park House from Frances's mother, as the lease had several years to run. Frances didn't have an estate of her own, neither did Johnny, but she did spend £20,000 of inheritance money on 236 acres of land so Johnny could be a gentleman farmer based at Park House, adding to his holding. Places of 500 acres of land with a leased house aren't estates. They are farms.

Young schoolgirls often obsess over men who are in the public eye. Diana may or may not have dreamed of Andrew or Charles when she was at school. Sometimes memories by fellow school mates are embroidered by journalists. As in, Kate was supposed to have had a poster of William on her wall at school, something she specifically denied in the engagement interview.

 

[Osipi]

I dont know what you mean about Diana having every social door shut to her..that was not the case, albeit she did of course lose some approval from Charles's and hte RF's set. And her brother didn't refuse her a country house that simply is NOT the case. He told her that the Garden house which she wanted was not on offer, after having agreed ot it at first because of security concerns. He offered her other houses. Diana got into a temper and refused them because she didn't really care that much about a coutnry house, it was mostly for the boys.

And as for tales of "lust"? Barbara Carltand? really?

I remembered this post as I was going through an excellent explanation of all that is involved with Royal Ascot which was written by a former poster, Diarist, and can be found in the Royal Ascot thread starting at post #593. To quote a bit of it in relation to Diana and society,

"Up until the first half of the 20th Century, all divorcees were automatically banned from the Royal Enclosure. Instead they had to sit in a separate stand outside the Royal Enclosure called the Iron Stand [which was for men only - divorced women just could not attend!!] The rules were slightly amended at one point to allow innocent parties to attend, when old Queen Mary [who had been a sworn enemy of divorcees] handed in her veto. However, how the decision to grant a Voucher was made by the particular HMR has never been disclosed. I have mentioned above that if you are a jailbird, then you are not going to get in, ditto if you are a peson of dubious moral virtue. But over the years there has been great anguish, with perfectly respectable people being unable to secure admission.

Interestingly, both Sarah [no surprise, I suppose] and Diana were banned from Royal Ascot. In the year following her separation, Diana reputedly said that she wished to go to Royal Ascot on the Thursday [ Gold Cup Day aka Ladies' Day] but was told that she had been banned..........."

 

[Curryong]

And Charles and Camilla, both divorcees, were also banned after their separations and divorces? And Andrew Parker Bowles was similarly banned? No? Thought not!

Diana though was banned from the Royal Enclosure, not from the Ascot racecourse itself. Of course she wouldn't have attended as the humiliation of being away from the Enclosure would have been too much. This was a Royal Veto though, or at least one controlled subtly by the Queen. Diana never saw doors slammed in her face from fellow aristocrats after her divorce, except for Charles's friends and people very close to the BRF.

 

[Osipi]

And Charles and Camilla, both divorcees, were also banned after their separations and divorces? And Andrew Parker Bowles was similarly banned? No? Thought not!

Diana though was banned from the Royal Enclosure, not from the Ascot racecourse itself. Of course she wouldn't have attended as the humiliation of being away from the Enclosure would have been too much. This was a Royal Veto though, or at least one controlled subtly by the Queen. Diana never saw doors slammed in her face from fellow aristocrats after her divorce, except for Charles's friends and people very close to the BRF.

Oh it was most definitely a royal veto and its my understanding that the acceptance into the Royal Enclosure at Ascot is a very precise and drawn out process ultimately deemed acceptable or not by HM's standards.

I think one reason why we really don't have much information about society doors slamming in Diana's face is because there weren't many of them that she would have wanted to continue socializing with once she separated from Charles. The Ascot occasion was just a fluke in the overall scheme of things. After being released from the royal fishbowl, there was a lot more water to swim in without restrictions.

 

[Queen Camilla]

John Spencer, Diana's grandfather, wasn't running after any royalty. His main focus always was Althorp and its treasures. He was a cold man and a perfectionist, and his relationship with his only son was rocky.

Johnny and Frances spent the first year of their married life in a house in the grounds of Althorp. They then moved to take over the lease of Park House from Frances's mother, as the lease had several years to run. Frances didn't have an estate of her own, neither did Johnny, but she did spend £20,000 of inheritance money on 236 acres of land so Johnny could be a gentleman farmer based at Park House, adding to his holding. Places of 500 acres of land with a leased house aren't estates. They are farms.

I was not referring to Diana's grandfather Albert Spencer but John Spencer who married into the Roche family who were tenants of the BRF,

 

[Osipi]

I was not referring to Diana's grandfather Albert Spencer but John Spencer who married into the Roche family who were tenants of the BRF,

It was the Roche connection that was that strongest as far as royal connections. Diana's grandmother, Ruth, Baroness Fermoy was extremely close to Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother since her days of being The Duchess of York. They remained close even through the marriages and divorces of their children and grandchildren. Ruth died in 1993.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, and the Roches were tenants of Park House long before Johnny Spencer's time. In fact, when King George V was dying the news of a birth in the Roche family at Park House was conveyed to him. Frances and her brother and sister grew up in Park House.

It was understandable that Johnny Spencer, Diana's father, would have taken over the lease of Park House rather than remain in the house at Althorp. He and his father weren't close and he wanted to be a gentleman farmer.

Johnny had been courting Lady Ann Coke before Frances Roche came on the scene, but Frances and Johnny met, fell in love and married. It was a love match, not a dynastic one. In spite of having once been an Royal equerry because he was a young officer in a smart regiment there's no evidence that Johnny married Frances to become close to the Royal family. He wasn't and his father wasn't.

It was Ruth Fermoy who was ambitious for her family and Baron (Maurice) Roche, her husband who went along with it, oiled by American money. Ruth was close to the royals, not Albert Earl Spencer or his wife Cynthia, and it was Ruth who was very happy when her granddaughter married the Prince of Wales.

 

[Queen Camilla]

When Maurice and Ruth were tenants they were not able to make a match with one of their children with a member of the BRF.

When Maurice died, Ruth had several options.

She could have stayed in Park House with her son and hoped for a Princess Anne/Edmund match.

She could have move out.
.
She could have given the lease over to her eldest daughter Mary who was married and pregnant with her first child.

Instead she gave the lease the over to John Spencer because a Spencer-Royal match was more of a possibility than a Berry-Royal match.

She chose the option that gave her the best possibility of a dynastic marriage.

I do not think Albert nor Cynthia would have objected to Royal marriage.

 

[Curryong]

No objection to something is a very long way away from planning and scheming for it.

When Ruth gave that lease for Park House over to the young Frances and Johnny, Sarah, their daughter, was a very small child. I've heard of forward planning but that is quite frankly ridiculous!

 

[Denville]

And Charles and Camilla, both divorcees, were also banned after their separations and divorces? And Andrew Parker Bowles was similarly banned? No? Thought not!

Diana though was banned from the Royal Enclosure, not from the Ascot racecourse itself. Of course she wouldn't have attended as the humiliation of being away from the Enclosure would have been too much. This was a Royal Veto though, or at least one controlled subtly by the Queen. Diana never saw doors slammed in her face from fellow aristocrats after her divorce, except for Charles's friends and people very close to the BRF.

I think its possible that Diana did have a pic of Charles or dreamed about marrying Andrew, but that just proves she was of the social circle that COULD dream about marrying a royal. her family were courtiers, she knew the RF, and it wasn't impossible to think that one of them might marry a Spencer girl.
of course she was not banned.. Divorces became so common from the 60s onwards that that ban went by the board, it woudl be impossible to keep out all upper crust divorcees. Naturally having split with Chas she wasn't popular or invited to RF gatherings any more except for things with the children.
There is an anecdote in Tina Brown's book about Diana and a girlfriend going window shopping in London one Saturday and running into one of Chas' set of friends.. and the woman curtseyed ot her and exchanged greetings.. and Di said that that woman hadnt spoken to her in ages.. But once she met her in public she treated her with a formal respect, as a Princess even if she and Charles were split up.

 

[Denville]

OCharles. The Ascot occasion was just a fluke in the overall scheme of things. After being released from the royal fishbowl, there was a lot more water to swim in without restrictions.

Yes and No. I think that it wasn't a good thing for her to lose touch with her own class, so much. She did have new friends who were intelligent high acheivers but from outside the British aristocracy, but I think as a woman not in touch with the RF or many of her own kind, she was open to socialising with too many celebrities. which was not good for her.
Having said that -her oldest friends from her school and flat days were still around and they were the same class as her.. It was mainly Chas' set that she didn't see any more but then she had not been friendly with most of them for years anyway. I think she felt they were never her friends, they were people who "sucked up" to Charles.. and she had nothing in common wiht them and didn't WANT to see them.

 

[Queen Camilla]

No objection to something is a very long way away from planning and scheming for it.

When Ruth gave that lease for Park House over to the young Frances and Johnny, Sarah, their daughter, was a very small child. I've heard of forward planning but that is quite frankly ridiculous!

IMO, Ruth saw the possibility of a dynastic marriage shortly after her husband died in 1955.

Albert, Cynthia, John and Frances went on board sometime later followed by Sarah and Diana.

 

[Curryong]

Well, we are all entitled to our opinions on this forum.

 

[Denville]

IMO, Ruth saw the possibility of a dynastic marriage shortly after her husband died in 1955.

Albert, Cynthia, John and Frances went on board sometime later followed by Sarah and Diana.

what so she thought that her unborn or baby grandchildren might marry into royalty? Most upper class families had a shot at marrying inot the RF, there was nothing unusual about that.

 

[Denville]

Diana loved dancing and ballet. Did Charles go with her to any dance festivals, accompany her regularly to tha way of life that they enjoy.

in relation to this Curry, I beleive that Chas did go to the ballet with her.. I would have to check but I think that there's something in TIna B's book about the famous "Diana dancing" thing..
that Wayne Sleep though that C was a bit miffed not because of Di's dancing being "vulgar" (as the story goes) but because the previous year, he and Di had taken part in a skit at the ballet and he was perhaps annoyed that he had not been asked to join in something again. I will try adn get my Tina B book out.. and check it.

 

[Denville]

Curryong, I have checked Tina Brown and Charles did look a bit frosty after the Diana dancing.. and Wayne Sleep felt that he was annoyed rahter than "disgusted by Di being so showy". That the previous year he and Di had done a skit at the Ballet, where he, Charles, Sang Just one Cornetto to Diana. And that Sleep felt C was annoyed that Di had done something on hr own.. so that proves that he DID accompany Di to the Ballet perhaps only on one or 2 occasions a year, but he did...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Oh yes that ballet. Toe cringing and curling. A Princess of Wales, a future Queen, on spitzen and in a tutu dancing for an audience. Hmmm... No wonder Charles was annoyed.

 

[wyevale]

A Princess of Wales, a future Queen, on spitzen and in a tutu dancing for an audience. Hmmm...

No worse SURELY than a Queen [and a FRENCH Queen at that] appearing on Stage, as Marie Antoinette did...?

 

[Curryong]

Diana wasn't in a tutu at all, but in a flowing gown. She was apparently very graceful on stage. Her intentions were good. She wanted to please her husband.

As for Royal persons making idiots of themselves plus a really, really bad judgement call, what about the idiocy of 'It's a Royal Knockout' in which no less than two of the Queen's sons, her daughter and her daughter in law performed? Royal Born Idiots, no less, really hurting the dignity of the BRF. Diana didn't take part in that little display!

 

[Osipi]

If I remember right, Charles loved being a big ham on the stage during his university years.

Diana always loved the ballet and would have aspired to be a dancer but as she stated herself, she grew too tall. Teaching ballet was an idea that she toyed with for a bit before the romance with Charles started also. I imagine she would have been very graceful and good at what she was doing on stage.

As far as Charles' reaction, a photograph really isn't that much to go by. For all we know, at that moment he could have been dealing with acid reflux or numerous other things that don't create a smile.

 

[Curryong]

Diana was hardly gyrating about the stage around a pole! She and Wayne Sleep devised a short dance routine in which incidentally the 24 year old Diana appears very graceful. The performance received eight curtain calls and we don't know, except for one momentary photo showing him looking serious, whether Charles was annoyed about it or not. It took place early in the marriage so he may very well have been quite OK with the surprise.

Incidentally, the year before, both Charles and Diana had appeared together on stage at Covent Garden for the same charity in a skit as Romeo and Juliet. At that time Charles had sung a parody of a popular ad of the time 'Just one more Corneto' on stage. But of course, as this is Charles's performance we are supposed to think of it as being supremely dignified, I suppose!

 

[Lee-Z]

Is there an actual video of this or are we all posting from memory here...if the latter is the case than imo we should be careful to avoid "hindsight-interpretation"
(as Diana was a very good dancer i can hardly imagine it being cringeworthy...)

and no, i didnt see the video, nor read the books mentioned here, i'm just a bit annoyed by how things spiral out of control here and accusations keep flying everywhere

just my 2cts, everyone is free to disagree

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Diana was hardly gyrating about the stage around a pole! She and Wayne Sleep devised a short dance routine in which incidentally the 24 year old Diana appears very graceful. The performance received eight curtain calls and we don't know, except for one momentary photo showing him looking serious, whether Charles was annoyed about it or not. It took place early in the marriage so he may very well have been quite OK with the surprise.

Incidentally, the year before, both Charles and Diana had appeared together on stage at Covent Garden for the same charity in a skit as Romeo and Juliet. At that time Charles had sung a parody of a popular ad of the time 'Just one more Corneto' on stage. But of course, as this is Charles's performance we are supposed to think of it as being supremely dignified, I suppose!

Diana would have received curtain calls anyway, without a relation to the quality of the performance on spitzen and in tutu.

 

[Curryong]

She probably would have received curtain calls that's true, just as people near royalty literally almost split their sides when Charles (or any other Royal) cracks a joke or lap it up if he happens to make comments about them.

Diana was not wearing a tutu and at least she had trained in dance for several years. Diana and Sleep's dance routine was more a form of modern dancing than traditional ballet. Charles hasn't trained as a comedian, singer or actor has he, nevertheless he sang on the same stage as Romeo the year before, and acted on stage in his Uni years.

https://lisawallerrogers.com/tag/princess-diana-dancing/

(Lisa sources both Tina Brown and Kitty Kelley when commenting on Diana's performance and the previous year when Charles sang a parody of a popular TV advertisement.)