Charles and Diana

[XeniaCasaraghi]

No, but lack of compatibility makes a tough job even harder.

Love and capatibility are 2 separate things.
Charles may have been weak willed and it would be nice to think that he could have remained marry and leave the providing heirs to his brothers, but Charles still had the abdication looming over him; his mother and grand mother lived through it and his not fettnf married would have been viewed as somehow not doing his duty.
Plus Charles had been looking for someone to marry for awhile, it's possible that he was giving up hope of ever finding the right girl so he made himself believe that Diana was good enough and he could build a good life with her; what if he saw Diana as his last chance?
Let's just say he didn't marry Diana, who else was left who might have worked? He only ever wanted Amanda (said no) Camilla (married) or Diana (disaster waiting to happen).

 

[Denville]

Thatis true Xenia. I think that Charles went for what he thought was a compatible marriage, and that he DID have a geneuine affection for Diana at first, and thought that she was sweet, that she was into his interests and being upper class, knew what royal life was like.. and she seemed to sympathise with him over Mountbattens' death and his own lonely position as heir to the throne..
so he thougt that even if he wasn't DEEPLY in love with her and perhaps knew that he did love Cam more, that they had enough affection and common ground to make the marriage work.. and I think he found her very attractive sexually as well... How was he to know that Di's sharing his interests was all an act when she didn't know herself that she was acitng?
I think that the bulimia and the "Balmoral honeymoon" really got the marriage into hot water.. I think DI hated B -when she found herself there, married to the Prince and stuck in the RF..adn realised that she was In this weird lifestyle for LIFE.. that she could not get out.. and it made her ill.. and the more ill she was, I think that Charles tred ot help, was rebuffed at times and then began to draw away.

 

[HistoryGirl]

Love and capatibility are 2 separate things.
Charles may have been weak willed and it would be nice to think that he could have remained marry and leave the providing heirs to his brothers, but Charles still had the abdication looming over him; his mother and grand mother lived through it and his not fettnf married would have been viewed as somehow not doing his duty.
Plus Charles had been looking for someone to marry for awhile, it's possible that he was giving up hope of ever finding the right girl so he made himself believe that Diana was good enough and he could build a good life with her; what if he saw Diana as his last chance?
Let's just say he didn't marry Diana, who else was left who might have worked? He only ever wanted Amanda (said no) Camilla (married) or Diana (disaster waiting to happen).

But in my opinion, Diana wasn't looking to marry a friend, she wanted a lover like most people. He either didn't realize that she wanted something deeper or he didn't care. Part of compatibility is wanting the same thing as your partner to at least know you have the same goal in mind; those two did not.

I don't know who else he could marry because I don't know every woman he ever knew or how he felt about them. I just know that the one he chose was ultimately not someone who wanted the same things from the marriage as he did.

While romantic, passionate love may not last and it could very well be the most disastrous type, it was the type that Diana wanted. She wanted a man that was in love with her, not someone who saw her as a pretty friend. Now Charles wasn't looking for that and for the purposes of the crown that may very well have been the best option, but then he should have found someone who wanted the same thing. And likewise, Diana should have done the same. To me, it was a case of two people who wanted the relationship to work out of sheer will than any reality. They seem to have put their desires on the other person instead of seeing the other as they really were.

 

[Denville]

the 2 arre not mutaully exclusive. Passionate lover type of love doesn't last forever.. for a relationship to last it has to become a partnership. And Charles DID say more than once that he had to marry someone he would be with for 50 years, who would be Queen..and that he thought a friendship/partnership was the way to go. It doesn't mean that he didn't hae some strong feelings for Diana, i think he found her very attractive, he was prepared to "fall in love" with her. but he first had to beleive that she was soemeone who shared his hobbies and interests and knew what ti was to be queen..
I dont think it is entirely his fault that Diana had been so brought up that she didnt know what life would be like as a princess and a queen, or that in spite of being brought up on a country estate, she didn't really like country sports or that way of life.. but she was able to give a performance of liking them. Or that she'd be quite stubborn when married in that she didnt know much about the world or being Princess of Wales but woud be reluctant to learn about what she needed to know

 

[HistoryGirl]

that's exactly my point. He might have been attracted to her, but one doesn't prepare oneself to be in love with someone; you either are or you aren't. She wanted someone who already was in love with her. Neither one is entirely at fault for anything. She should have taken care to find out what it really meant to be PoW and he should have made sure she knew and was prepared for the type of relationship he would provide.

Neither did that. I think she was in love with the idea of a prince being her husband and he wanted a pretty girl who just wanted to live a quiet life in the country when not at engagements. When they married they realized the expectations they had for each other were not the reality.

Of course, the two types of love don't have to be mutually exclusive for a successful relationship, but they didn't have a successful relationship. They wanted different things from a marriage and they were both responsible for that mistake. She wanted a love that Charles either didn't have for her or expressed it in a way that was unsatisfactory to her. Likewise, she played the part of the woman she thought he wanted instead of being herself.

 

[Mirabel]

It's easy to say they should have taken more time and got to know each other better, BUT.

The press was in a frenzy! They were like a pack of wolves, trailing Diana, calling her at all hours of the night, constantly hectoring her friends and family. Even the Queen said she couldn't stand much more of it.

Someone once said that Charles, in those days, was more like a producer auditioning an actress for a starring role rather than a man in love.
And Diana handled herself brilliantly at the time, so he gave her the job!

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

People fall in love for a variety of reasons. Do we know for sure that Charles did not fool himself into believing he loved this fake Diana which he didn't realize was fake? He may have loved an image the same as her; of they had spent more time together he may have realized that her idea of love was based on nothing but romantic novels. They both may have discussed marriage and love and assumed they were both on the same page. The point I am essentially trying to make is that both parties went in with good faith and found out too late that they weren't right for each other. It is too often said that Charles married her so she could have children and nothing else. I'm just theorizing about some of the other reasons he might have proposed?
Does anyone know why Amanda said no?

 

[COUNTESS]

She, probably, said no, because she would be number 2. Camilla, then her. Diana was besotted with the idea of the prince of wales. She forgot to get all the dope on what was going on. I think Charles, cared for Diana, in his way. But he knew what he was going to do with his life, she was the surprise. The first Princess of Wales who objected to being just the show piece. And that was the other problem, as far as the press was concerned he was number 2.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Anyone else have a reason as to why Amanda said no other than the standard Diana worship script?

 

[Osipi]

I think basically Amanda had different ideas as to how she wanted her life to be and the royal fishbowl wasn't it. I think a lot of the reasons Charles and Amanda were put together had to do with Uncle Dickie.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, Uncle Dickie was the inveterate matchmaker of the extended royal family and wanted his Brabourne granddaughter to be Charles's choice. He prodded Charles to correspond with her in the first place, which she did.

Although Amanda was very young she was level-headed. She was a country girl, attractive and warm-hearted. But, she was not in love with Charles. They were friends, fond of each other, but Amanda came from a family that was close to the Prince of Wales. She knew his lifestyle, she knew the royal life, and she didn't want it. 'There was no spark' according to the present Countess Mounbatten. Apparently Charles was accepting of the refusal. He told Amanda that he 'wasn't surprised'.

IMO she turned him down primarily because she didn't want the life and she wasn't in love and knew that Charles wasn't in love with her. However, also at that time, the Parker Bowles marital relationship had become an open one. They were basically living separate lives. When Andrew left for Rhodesia/Zimbabwe on a six month posting in early 1979 Camilla did not go with him. Laura PB was a toddler and Camilla and her children stayed in Britain.

According to Dimbleby Charles and Camilla had became very close in 1979. (Presumably in love all over again.) According to Dimbleby again '...to a point where (Charles) was warned that an illicit liaison would be damaging to his own standing.' The Queen was informed, according to some sources, but did not interfere.

I won't go into Camilla's grandmother's worries about Charles and Camilla being close earlier when Tom PB was little, as it is OT in this thread, but IMO the warm relationship between Charles and Camilla at the end of the seventies and beginning of the eighties is important in how the whole saga unfolded.

The Brabournes were Charles's friends. We don't know whether Charles's bond with Camilla was discussed among the family or their friends. If Amanda did hear of it that could well have persuaded her that her decision was right.

 

[Denville]

I'm not even very sure that Amanda K said no to Charles. I think I've only read it it one biography and I can't remember where. I suspect that if he did propose, it was because he wanted to please his uncle and because he believed that Amanda was a suitable queen who knew what was expected of her, not because he had any strorng feeligns for her whatsoever...
And Xenia, I quite agree, I think ti is obvious that Charles while not deeply in love iwht Di, was fond of her. I doubt if he choose her totally with the idea of "having children and then returning to Camilla" but Diana put that idea out so successfully that her more ardent fans seem to completely believe in that story..
I think he had realised by then that Camilla was always the woman he would love most but he was fond of Diana and believed that she shared his interests, that she knew what being queen meant and that she loved him.. and he was fond enough of her to be on the verge of falling in love.

 

[Denville]

It's easy to say they should have taken more time and got to know each other better, BUT.

Someone once said that Charles, in those days, was more like a producer auditioning an actress for a starring role rather than a man in love.
And Diana handled herself brilliantly at the time, so he gave her the job!

I don't recollect that being said of Charles but his friends DID say that Diana seemed to approach the idea of marrying him as if SHE was auditioning for a job in a costume drama.. that she didn't realise what married life was like or what it meant to be Princess of W... And yes I think that there wasn't time for them to get to know each other.. he was over 30, the press loved Diana and were chasing her wildly, and it seemed like the courtship had gone Ok and there was no need to prolong it..

 

[Curryong]

Giles Brandreth is an acclaimed author (biography of Prince Philip/the Queen) and has many links to the British upper crust. (He was also a Conservative MP for Chester and subsequently a Treasury Lord.)

Brandreth is the author of a quite sympathetic book on Camilla and Charles's relationship. He wrote that Charles proposed to Amanda Knathbull on the Britannia in August 1979 and was turned down. Countess Mountbatten told Brandeth that 'there was no spark'. At the time there was also, as I wrote in my last post, a deep friendship between Camilla and Charles, which deepened even further after Mountbatten's death.

Personally, I don't believe that Charles was cynical enough to contemplate using Diana as a brood mare, although I agree that it is a still a widespread view. However, where I do blame Charles is for giving in to media pressure and to his father at a time when it must have been clear to him that his heart was given to another, and also marrying someone hoping that his feelings for her would deepen into love, without taking into account at all of "What if they dont?"

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

We can theorize until we weigh one ounce about the marriage of the Prince of Wales and Lady Diana Spencer. The UK has the highest divorce rate in the whole of Europe and there were many divorces inside the royal family as well. We can theorize about royal matchmaking, the media pressure, a third one in the marriage, etc. Diana's own brother, the Earl, shows that without pressure, without third persons, without matchmaking, and with entitely free will, the one divorce after the other is possible as well.

 

[Curryong]

That's what this thread is here for though, surely? If we don't put forth our opinions, if we don't speculate, then threads like this die.

There have been third persons involved in at least two of Charles Spencer's divorces. And, although there are of course, exceptions, most people do not of their own free will marry others without being IN love with them.

 

[Denville]

but what's love? People say that Charles shoudln't have married without being in love, blah blah.. but who is to say what is in love? in the west most people know their partners, they believe that they are in love.. and yet millions of marriages fail. So to those who say he knew he wasn't in love with her etc, what about the millions who DO think or know they are in love?
Charles said well before he got married that his marriage had to last and that he flet a partnership, a good friendship, was more important than hearts and flowers kind of love.. the problem was that diana was immature at best and damaged at worst.. She knew quite well or should have known that the royal way, if a marriage doesnt work out, is to keep it discreet, and yet she talked tot the media. She said that she wanted to marry C because he could not get a divorce, yet she was the one who wanted a divorce...
She said that she didn't want to destroy the monarchy because it was her son's future, but she did behave in such a way that she almost DID destroy it.
I dont say that Amanda wasn't proposed to by Charles, just that i have only I think seen it in one book. Im not sure howmuch "in" Gyles B has to the Royal circle but I suppose it is possible that C did propose to Amanda and obviously she said no. But I think if he did, he did so in a fairly "cool" spirit.. because he wanted to please Dickie and because he wanted a wife.. Whereas with Diana I think he was genuinley interested in her, and actively wanted to marry her, and was drawn to her enough to feel that he coudl have a successful relationship wth her,

 

[Jacknch]

I believe that it is in Jonathan Dimbleby's biography that mention is made of Charles' proposal to Amanda Knatchbull and that she turned him down because she did not want to become a member of the Royal Family considering the death of her grandfather and brother in the IRA assassination.

It was shortly afterwards that Charles' attention moved to Diana, though how this came about I have no idea. Their courtship lasted around six months didn't it, before they got engaged?

 

[Denville]

I'd be more inclined to beleive Dimbleby, and that sounds quite sensible. I imagine that Amanda jsut wasn't into Charles and didnt want a life in the public eye, esp when her grandfather had been killed.
Charles met Diana at a party given by some of her friends, I think their names were Philip and ? Wife Van Der Pass..(Of course he had met her as a child and when he was dating her sister but this was the "meeting where they started to date."
. He was attracted to her and asked her to drive back to London with him, and she siaid that would be rude to their hosts to leave like that. I think that Di might have been helping the family out as a nanny so they were friendly with her and thought she might amuse Charles. So He then asked her out and they started to meet each other regularlly.

 

[Mermaid1962]

The impression I've had is that she didn't love Charles enough to put up with royal life. She was close enough to the royal family to see what her life would entail.

Anyone else have a reason as to why Amanda said no other than the standard Diana worship script?

Both Charles and Diana said in later years that they were in love when they married. Diana said that anyone would believe that who read the letters they wrote to each other; Charles said, after Diana died, that no matter what people said, they were very much in love in the beginning.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Yes. Talking on the hay bales. The next meeting that I know of was Cowes Week, and that was when people really picked up on the spark between them. They danced a lot together.

Charles met Diana at a party given by some of her friends, I think their names were Philip and ? Wife Van Der Pass..(Of course he had met her as a child and when he was dating her sister but this was the "meeting where they started to date."

 

[Denville]

Th
Both Charles and Diana said in later years that they were in love when they married. Diana said that anyone would believe that who read the letters they wrote to each other; Charles said, after Diana died, that no matter what people said, they were very much in love in the beginning.

Trouble is that Di said that (and I beleive it is true) and charles said it.. but Di did SUCH a job of putting out the story that Charles never loved her, that he lured her into a fake marriage to have kids and cover up his affair with Cam and then was horrible and abusive to her - that some people who read that outpouring will never get over that impression..

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

We can theorize until we weigh one ounce about the marriage of the Prince of Wales and Lady Diana Spencer. The UK has the highest divorce rate in the whole of Europe and there were many divorces inside the royal family as well. We can theorize about royal matchmaking, the media pressure, a third one in the marriage, etc. Diana's own brother, the Earl, shows that without pressure, without third persons, without matchmaking, and with entitely free will, the one divorce after the other is possible as well.

If you don't want to participate in the current conversation then you don't have to. We are having a discussion and disputing and debating what we have learned over the years. Part of researching and analyzing history is theorizing what might have been motivating the people involved.

 

[Lady Nimue]

I also pointed out that there were several other royals, like Harald of Norway and Victoria of Sweden who did listen to their hearts, waited for years to marry and weren't prepared to wed anyone they weren't in love with.

It's very possible that Charles' marital disaster was a cautionary tale for every royal family watching. Harold was before that time, but Victoria certainly was counseled to follow her heart. It has a lot to do with family dynamics imo.

Many subscribe to certain things here which may or may not be myths, such as 'Charles had to marry a virgin'. Did he? [...] Charles knew very well that many of his girlfriends weren't virgins, but if he had been desperately in love with any of them (as he was with Camilla) and felt the time was right, he would have proposed, anyway.

I would say that the underlined bolded is one of those myths, that Charles and Camilla were desperately in love from way back. It's on the order of an urban legend imo.

I agree with this. It is really difficult to stand by your heart's true desire when everyone seems to be steering you a certain way. Charles capitulated. Understandable, but still a mistake.

Charles is very much his mother's son imo. The Queen is dutiful. Her son is as well. He did what was expected of him, with someone he had every reason to expect was an 'in house' choice.

I'm still not sure if Charles was madly in love with Camilla and wanted to marry her before she married APB. Perhaps he was or perhaps he just didn't want to marry her then.

I agree.

Either way, he rushed an important decision and it led to a lot of unhappiness for him. I think age has given him a bit more of a backbone and he seems happy so good for him.

Well put.

Both Charles and Diana said in later years that they were in love when they married. Diana said that anyone would believe that who read the letters they wrote to each other; Charles said, after Diana died, that no matter what people said, they were very much in love in the beginning.

Heartbreakingly sad.

Trouble is that Di said that (and I beleive it is true) and charles said it.. but Di did SUCH a job of putting out the story that Charles never loved her, that he lured her into a fake marriage to have kids and cover up his affair with Cam and then was horrible and abusive to her - that some people who read that outpouring will never get over that impression..

Yep. Well said.

 

[HistoryGirl]

Charles is very much his mother's son imo. The Queen is dutiful. Her son is as well. He did what was expected of him, with someone he had every reason to expect was an 'in house' choice.

I think there are ways to be dutiful without choosing to marry someone you're not entirely sure you love. And various royals have proven that; including the Queen.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I think there are ways to be dutiful without choosing to marry someone you're not entirely sure you love. And various royals have proven that; including the Queen.

I understand what you are saying, however I am not sure that everyone agrees that love should be the only reason to get married. Some people never fall in love in the way Diana imagined. Diana wanted romance and to be treated as the heroine of a romantic novel. Diana didn't understand that real love is compromise> it also takes a lot of work to maintain.

I think that much of the difference of opinion regarding Charles and Diana is that those who believe that Charles was completely at fault put more emphasis on the importance of romantic love in a marriage. Others, like me, believe that a marriage can be happy and successful without romantic love. Both views are legitimate.

However, what Diana failed to understand is that Charles fell in the second camp. It was obvious to anyone observing at the time that Charles was not just looking for someone he was 'in love' with (although that would have been a bonus), he was specifically looking for someone who would be a successful "Princess of Wales," and all that entailed. But just as importantly, he wanted a companion who shared his interest.

I tend to agree that Charles should have been more explicit with Diana. I think he told her what he was looking for but didn't specifically explain that he didn't love her to the same degree that she seemed to love him. I say "seemed to love him" because I don't think Diana truly loved Charles at that point. I think she had a crush on the Prince of Wales.

 

[HistoryGirl]

I understand what you are saying, however I am not sure that everyone agrees that love should be the only reason to get married. Some people never fall in love in the way Diana imagined. Diana wanted romance and to be treated as the heroine of a romantic novel. Diana didn't understand that real love is compromise> it also takes a lot of work to maintain.

But that's what I'm saying. He picked someone that did not want what he wanted. She also chose someone that did not want what she wanted. I'm not saying that either type of love is right or wrong. I'm saying they didn't want the same thing, which means they were incompatible. There's a difference between two people choosing to marry a companion instead of an infatuation and two people who married someone totally different than they thought to begin with.

I'm not saying that other royals who have had successful relationships married people that jumped out of some romance novel, just that they took the time and chose someone who saw marriage the same way. In my opinion, that's what makes a relationship successful, finding someone that has the same goal so that during the hard times compromise is possible. I don't believe that has to be sacrificed just because one of the partners is a royal.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

But that's what I'm saying. He picked someone that did not want what he wanted. She also chose someone that did not want what she wanted. I'm not saying that either type of love is right or wrong. I'm saying they didn't want the same thing, which means they were incompatible. There's a difference between two people choosing to marry a companion instead of an infatuation and two people who married someone totally different than they thought to begin with.

I don't think I implied that you didn't make that point. Your previous post seemed to be a criticism of Charles for marrying someone he wasn't sure he loved. My post was a response to that. I truly don't think that romantic love was his primary goal and I don't think that that made him weak I absolutely agree with you that they wanted different things and were fundamentally incompatible.

 

[HistoryGirl]

It was a criticism for marrying someone he didn't love in the same way that she wanted to be loved. It's the same criticism I've made of Diana; marrying someone that didn't love her the way she wanted.

I can't even say what Charles believes is romantic love. Maybe his definition of romantic love is the type of companion that he thought Diana would be. But I wholeheartedly reject the idea that he either had to choose love or duty. That narrative to me has been completely over played. I just think he made a mistake.

 

[Curryong]

I think it takes two to make or break a marriage. I don't think Charles was the main reason the marriage failed but I don't believe Diana was either.

I don't think Charles was used to compromise in his private life. As an adult he had been used to getting his own way, people agreeing with his pronouncements on life, having people rushing to anticipate his wishes, aides doing his research, a large number of servants and other staff making his life comfortable and easy.

He expected a very young woman to fit in with this, and, like his staff, anticipate his wishes and make him happy, perform the role of Princess of Wales and share his hobbies and interests. What about her hobbies and interests? Did they not count? What about him thinking about anticipating her wishes, (developing an interest in modern music for example) adopting a few of her interests in their future life together? Apparently that wasn't expected to be important.

What young woman would be happy and satisfied with the man they're engaged to sitting them down and saying "Well, I really don't love you in the same way as you seem to love me, and I don't love you as much! However, I want us to share our interests and I am sure that I will learn to love you after marriage. I am sure love will come on my part...." ?? Most young women, let alone 19/20 year olds would be absolutely devastated at those sort of revelations. In fact, I think most women of any age would walk out after a conversation on those lines!

I think Diana was in love with Charles, yes with the whole shebang around him, but with the man too. I don't think that too many 19yearolds in Western societies anticipate marriage without romantic love, stars bursting in the heavens, hearts churning, the feeling you'd do anything for the loved one. The sort of love in fact that Charles obviously felt and feels for Mrs Parker Bowles.

In that, I believe that Diana was absolutely typical of her contemporaries. And I tell you what, I was 27 when I got engaged and I wanted and expected and got that too.