Bowing and Curtseying

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

Expanding on Cordonez's question regarding Prince Philip:

Assuming for argument that bowing/curtseying was not a voluntary choice - and recognizing that HRH The Duke of Edinburgh was born royal and Daniel Westling was born a commoner - if Victoria and Daniel married and she became queen, under these conditions of protocal how would he be treated? Would The Dukes of Brabant, The Princes of Asturias, The Princes of Orange, The Princes of Wales, Haakon & MM, Fred & Mary, et.al. bow and curtsey to him? Aside from the obvious style/graciousness/likeability differences, would there be any difference in how Daniel would be treated vs. Mary, Maxima, Mette-Marit, Letizia, Camilla, etc.?

Also in previous posts it was mentioned that The Duke of Edinburgh told an elderly woman that it was not necessary to curtsey (presumably because of her advanced age). Would it be acceptable for Daniel (or any other non-royal marrying into a royal family) to have staff instruct people not to curtsey to them (even if they wanted to) because it made the new royal uncomfortable? Would we want them to make such a protocol statement?

Assuming most of us are non-royal - if you found yourself in the position of marrying into a royal family, would you be comfortable with/want other people to bow/curtsey to you?

Mapper

 

[Oppie]

I don't know what the 'set-in-stone' rules are for this so this is just going on my understanding

Assuming for argument that bowing/curtseying was not a voluntary choice - and recognizing that HRH The Duke of Edinburgh was born royal and Daniel Westling was born a commoner - if Victoria and Daniel married and she became queen, under these conditions of protocal how would he be treated? Would The Dukes of Brabant, The Princes of Asturias, The Princes of Orange, The Princes of Wales, Haakon & MM, Fred & Mary, et.al. bow and curtsey to him? Aside from the obvious style/graciousness/likeability differences, would there be any difference in how Daniel would be treated vs. Mary, Maxima, Mette-Marit, Letizia, Camilla, etc.?

1) Philip and Daniel - no there wouldn't be a difference as they would both be considered spouses of a Queen and anyone except other King/Queen and there spouses would bow/curtsey.

2) There doesn't seem to be a difference, between heirs and spouses. I don't knwo about back in the day but the heirs don't really seem to curtsey to each other niether do there siblings (ie Infanta Cristina, Prince Joachim ect) The general rule seems to be that HRH, HSH don't bow to each other. Daniel like for example Letizia would be expected to bow to someone like King Harald or Prince Henrik. For the public if you were going to curtsey to Victoria it would be expected you would do the same for Daniel

3) There are exceptions British royals sometimes curtsey to each other depending (ie to the Prince/Princess of Wales) but that seems to have fallen our of practice. And then there is Mette-Marit who seems to have her own rules (but I love her)

Also in previous posts it was mentioned that The Duke of Edinburgh told an elderly woman that it was not necessary to curtsey (presumably because of her advanced age). Would it be acceptable for Daniel (or any other non-royal marrying into a royal family) to have staff instruct people not to curtsey to them (even if they wanted to) because it made the new royal uncomfortable? Would we want them to make such a protocol statement?

I think it should be left up to the person in public. If they want to curtsey they should be allowed to. But apparently Prince William doesn't want people to curtsey.

Assuming most of us are non-royal - if you found yourself in the position of marrying into a royal family, would you be comfortable with/want other people to bow/curtsey to you?

I wouldn't want people to feel obligated but if someone wanted to I wouldn't stop them because I felt uncomfortable. I think for some people it isn't about that specfic royal but about what they repersent.

 

[Rebafan81]

As an american I would be honored to curtsey to any royalty. To me it is the same as saying Thank you, or yes, maam to someone you respect. To me it isn't demeaning at all, it is just a way to show respect for someone who is in a position of honor. I guess I was always taught to treat everyone with respect and this is how I interupt the act of curtsey/bowing.
I agree MM has the best curtsey of all the Princesses.

 

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

Thanks for the response, Oppie. BTW I love MM, too. She along w/ Maxima, Mathilde, and Letizia seem to bring what I call a common elegance to the role. They are generally impeccable in manners and style while still being approachable and without all the haughty airs that some people might take on when marrying into royalty (read Mary and Marie Chantal - although IMO Marie Chantal was probably even more of a princess before marriage).

Mapper

 

[Duchess]

As an american I would be honored to curtsey to any royalty. To me it is the same as saying Thank you, or yes, maam to someone you respect. To me it isn't demeaning at all, it is just a way to show respect for someone who is in a position of honor. I guess I was always taught to treat everyone with respect and this is how I interupt the act of curtsey/bowing.
I agree MM has the best curtsey of all the Princesses.

what a nice post Rebafan81. i feel the same way.

 

[kimebear]

Does anyone have a photo of a prince bowing to a king? We have seen M-F, F-F and F-M but no M-M. Do they just bow or shake hands and bob their heads???

 

[Chanter]

When the Middle East meets the West

How does one handle all the Sheikh’s & Sheikha's? Not at all meaning to be rude, though it seems that 'everyone & their cousin' is a Sheikh. With knowledge of their households simply not as public of record as say European royalty is, it just seems to difficult to know much of anything, including rank amongst themselves, & where they would compare to rank of European royals.

I see that ruler of Dubai is (now) HRH. When did his family actually take on the title of royalty?

What would be the etiquette with Queen Noor & Queen Rania meeting? Then either of them meeting Queen Elizabeth? Not merely just age, that Queen Elizabeth is older, but is not a Rania actually a commoner married into royalty? Any other explainatory examples for me of how such would work, especially with the middle easterners?

Before Princess Haya married Sheikh Mohammed, what would that protocol have been? I ask for theirs is a very male dominated society. Which outranked the other, especially before he became the ruler of Dubai. Once he became ruler? Now that they are married?

Then with the Saudi’s having King’s et al, plus Sheikh’s, how does this all work out with ‘mere’ Sheikh’s of other nations? Do they even bow & curtsey, or do they have another form of customary mannerisms?

I gather a Sultan is equal to a king. Though where does an Emir stand amidst royal rankings? So would an Emir bow to a Sultan or a Sheikh? Or is an Emir above a Sheikh, except of course in the case of HRH Sheikh Mohammed of Dubai, as he is the ruler of his nation? And where does Sheikh Mohammed’s brother Sheikh Hamdan fit in all of this as to rank & protocol? Are all Emir’s rulers?

I am thinking in terms of does HRH Sheikh Mohammed of Dubai outrank Prince Phillip, thus Phillip would bow to this Sheikh? Though would Sheikh Hamden & Prince Phillip be equals, or Hamdan of lesser rank thus the one to do the bowing? Then what of HRH Sheikh Mohammed’s prince sons, which bows to the other say again in using the examples of Prince Phillip, Prince Charles, & Prince Andrew?

HRH Princess Haya, the wife of the ruler of Dubai now in her married position would not curtsey to Prince Phillip? Though would she have before her marriage, as he is married to Queen Elizabeth thus at that time outranking her because of the status of his wife?

Moderators, edit, move or delete this long winded post as you so choose to. I am merely trying to learn.

PS: Where do I find all the meanings for the abbreviations of HRH, HSH, HIH, etcetera? *thanks*

 

[Oppie]

I'm not that familar with Middle Eastern Royalty so I can't answer most of your question. If Queen Rania met Queen Elizabeth they would be no curtsey although Queen Rania is a consort Queens and Kings (and Princes Consorts) do not curtsey/bow to each other.

HM- His/Her Majesty used for Kings and Queens (HM Queen Elizabeth, HM King Harald, HM Queen Sofia)

HRH-Her/His Royal Highness used for Prince/Princess of Great Britian, Spain, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, the Netherlands and for the Luxembourg Royal Family (HRH Prince William, HRH Infanta Cristina HRH Grand Duke Henri)

HH-His/Her Highness used in some royal families for 'minor' royals (HH Prince Felix)

HIH- His/Her Imperial Highness used for the Japanese Royal Family (HIH Princess Aikio)

HSH- His/Her Serene Highness used for the Royal Families of Monaco and Liechtenstein (HSH Prince Albert)

HIM- His/Her Imperial Majesty used for an Emperor (HIM Emperor Akihito)

 

[Henri M.]

Heads of state don't bow to anyone....i.e., presidents don't bow to kings, and queens don't curtsy to first ladies, etc.
Lollies!
-Kara-

They do. Monsieur Jacques Chirac (President of France) and Madame Bernadette Chirac - Chodron de Courcel are always very gallant. He uses to make a bow and she a révérence.

 

[Sister Morphine]

They do. Monsieur Jacques Chirac (President of France) and Madame Bernadette Chirac - Chodron de Courcel are always very gallant. He uses to make a bow and she a révérence.

Yeah, but that's them. I've never seen George and Laura Bush do that.

 

[Chanter]

Oppie, thank you for the definitions. The I, as in Imperial, was really stumping me. *blushing over my ignorance*

Anyone else able to add anything, even a few things? *smile*

Thanks in advance!

 

[Next Star]

If I were to meet a royal in the future I would not bow or curstey but I would shake there hand. I do not like the bowing or curstying it is not pleasing to me . You can show respect without doing those things.

 

[Lady Jennifer]

If I'm not mistaken American Presidents never bow to Royals. I think the same could be said for other heads of states- not all, but some.

 

[Juanita]

If I'm not mistaken American Presidents never bow to Royals. I think the same could be said for other heads of states- not all, but some.

I think Presindents have the same status of Kings. A President won't bow any Royal but the First Lady (or First Gentleman) i think have to bow.
I read something about this some weeks ago, but i'm not totally sure. Anyway i hope this helps.

 

[Princess_Nessy]

I have a question - do CP Mary's parents have to bow to her? I mean, they're her parents! But now that she is a CP - do her commoner parents have to bow to her while in public? Just wondering...

 

[kimebear]

I have a question - do CP Mary's parents have to bow to her? I mean, they're her parents! But now that she is a CP - do her commoner parents have to bow to her while in public? Just wondering...

Bowing is a courtesy. No one has to bow to royalty. What's more, her parent's monarch is QEII as Australians. They are not Danish. I know they have bowed/curtsied for QMII out of respect, but they are not required to bow to their daughter.

 

[Madame Royale]

The Crown Princess' family do not curtsy or bow to either herself or Frederik and neither do their Danish & Australian friends.

The fact that Margrethe is not John or Susan's sovereign (Mary's mother died in 1997 from heart related complications), does in no way prohibit them from bowing or curtsying to the Queen of Denmark. And whilst bowing and curtsying is a courtesy it is still very much practiced in Denmark, although it is left to the indaviduals discretion

 

[Princess_Nessy]

Thank you Madame and Kimbear! I think I would still courtsy if I met one of them. When I met Princess Diana I did a half courtsy/half shaky leg thing... terrible!

 

[RoyalProtocol]

The Crown Princess' family do not curtsy or bow to either herself or Frederik and neither do their Danish & Australian friends.

The fact that Margrethe is not John or Susan's sovereign (Mary's mother died in 1997 from heart related complications), does in no way prohibit them from bowing or curtsying to the Queen of Denmark. And whilst bowing and curtsying is a courtesy it is still very much practiced in Denmark, although it is left to the indaviduals discretion

I have noticed that in Denmark curtseys tend to be deep and very respectful, though Mary's curtseys are quite shakey at times

 

[MargreteI]

Ok, here a new and rare one. Just because I remembered H.M. did it once.

Queen Margrethe II curtsy the audience

Could not find a better foto (maybe some one can), but she is the person to the left with flowers in her hair.

http://www.fyens.dk/article/216187

.

 

[RachelD]

Maybe she was showing her gratitude to the public...when did this happen?

 

[magnik]

It looks like the Queen was on the stage.
Well, MII is not only a Queen but a good artist too - painter, translator and designer too As Ingahild Grathmer she does the Danish edition of The Lord of the Ring, as designer she designed some of her own clothes and for the art show. Margrethe has many art shows.

 

[UserDane]

Maybe she was showing her gratitude to the public...when did this happen?

QMII's long-term friend, Susanne Heering, runs a ballet school at Næstved and QMII has for many years helped her with the annual student performance - doing drawings for the costumes and also some scenography I think.

This picture must be from one of these annual events

 

[MargreteI]

Maybe she was showing her gratitude to the public...when did this happen?

It looks like the Queen was on the stage.
Well, MII is not only a Queen but an artist - painter, translator and designer too

The Queen is an artist to in various areas.

Painting with watercolours and making exhibitions, decoupage, illustrated the book Lord of the rings, making scenery for theater as well as costumes ect.

On rare occations when she, like everybody else, has been called on stage she makes courtesy to the audience.

I thought the picture below was from her making costimes for the Royal Theater "Et Folkesagn" (A people tale), but its not. It from a friends ballet school season ending. She must have designed something. Can't read the full article without signing up. So she must have done it at least twice.

 

[Oppie]

Does anyone have a photo of a prince bowing to a king? We have seen M-F, F-F and F-M but no M-M. Do they just bow or shake hands and bob their heads???

This was the best I could do (I have been looking for awhile) it is from the King of Thailand Jubillee. If anyone wants to see more pictures about bowing and curtseying that is a good place to look because there were two galas and tons of pictures (and should you ever met purple platinum you should bow to her )

posted by Purple Platinum
http://img141.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc225&image=92458_537454.jpg

 

[HRH Mims]

Some Nice pictures:

I. Cristina curtseying to J-C

Princess Diana cursteying to ?
(interesting picture )

I think that lady is Sophie countess of Wessex courtseing on 100 birthday of queen Mum

pictures from profimedia

 

[amina1]

I thought for a moment that she was practicing or something, she reminded me of Mr.Bean when he was getting ready to meet the queen

 

[politikgirl]

While I agree most Americans would probably not curtsey or bow, I'm reminded of Jackie Kennedy. When she and her husband visited Britain, she tried to curtsey to the Duke of Edinburgh, and was told by an aide that the wives of heads of state never curtsey. However, some time later, at the funeral of her husband, at which the Duke was present, she again curtseyed to him, and when he asked, she told him she was no longer the wife of a head of state.

Great anecdote! Jackie Kennedy...probably the most graceful American to have ever graced this planet (on a side note, I'd put Jackie next to Grace Kelly but she became the Princess of Monaco and therefore not America...and next to Audrey Hepburn but she was a British citizen, I believe, who was born in Belgium). Jackie's choice to bow to the Duke of Edinburgh might have been wrong by protocol but was nonetheless very respectful and classy of her to do, IMHO.

As a Canadian, I would not hesitate to curtsey to HM The Queen or any member of the royal family, but I also don't feel that I have to, and I think that's important. Curtseying is a choice each individual can choose to do or not to do, and it's no big deal for us commoners not to. It's probably a much "bigger deal" if I was a royal and I chose not to curtsey to a higher level royal, but no one is going to judge a commoner for not bowing or curtseying.

 

[Vanesa]

I'm from a Republican country. However, I will courtesy and bow before a Royal. Why not? It is a showing of I'm respecting him or her and its is not anything bad to respect a person. I'm not less "free" for bowing, I think (and I'm a Monarchist, so... No problem at all... ).

I loved Jackie Kennedy's anecdote. She was a lady. Truly.

Vanesa.

 

[Madame Royale]

I think that lady is Sophie countess of Wessex courtseing on 100 birthday of queen Mum

Correct. And Lady Sarah who has a very deep curtsy indeed.