Autumn Kelly Converts: Peter Phillips Keeps Place in Succession - May 2008

[IloveCP]

I wonder what the british people thought of this.Of course there are a lot of catholics in Britian and Im sure there offended by the no catholics allowed policy.They really should change the law,but I know it's not easy.

 

[Renata4711]

It's not just "not easy" - it would be near impossible.

The Crown has two facets: Anglicanism and the State.

To try to disentangle them would mean re-writing the constitution.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Well if Charlene's converted, that would mean you would have to be Catholic to marry, wouldn't it?

Sometime earlier this year, the Archbishop explained that Charlene did NOT have to convert to wed Albert. I can't remember what he said about how the children would be raised.

 

[Renata4711]

Albert's children would be raised Catholic. Not a stipulation from Monsignor Barsi or the Pope, but Monaco's Constitution.

One could say it's the same situation with Britain and Monaco.
The constitution wins every time...

 

[sophie25]

Monaco and Britain are different. In Monaco as long as the children are brought up Catholic the Prince's wife can be whatever religion she likes, the same as in Holland for example where Princess Maxima has remained a Catholic but the children have to be raised as Protestants. In Britain a member of the Royal Family cannot succeed to the throne with a Catholic spouse under any circumstances.

 

[Biri]

Well, they divorced and both remarried, so I don't think they are very practising Catholics.

 

[COUNTESS]

Remember, Anglicans or Episcopalians here, are, really, Catholic, just not Roman Catholic. The same basic services and Liturgy.

 

[Iluvbertie]

However, under the Act of Settlement, anyone married to a Roman Catholic automatically loses the place in the line of succession so there is a difference.


That will change, when the Succession to the Crown Act is finally passed into law.


The British monarch obviously can't be Roman Catholic and that makes perfect sense as well,

 

[AdmirerUS]

Well, they divorced and both remarried, so I don't think they are very practising Catholics.

? Depending on the local church that you attend, you can be divorced and a practicing Catholic. Most divorced/remarried Catholics that I know fall into the "you can attend church, pray, donate and participate in the social life of the Church. You may also take sacraments if you are not sexually active in your marriage." I live in the US Midwest and find this is very common.
There is also the more-rare Catholic who has been told by a priest to follow a "don't ask, don't tell policy" and to go ahead and take sacrament in a local church that does not know of the prior divorce.
Off topic, but I thought I'd share what I'd learned from my experience of the RC Church.

 

[Rosena6]

Why was the Royal Marriages Act not amended for Peter Phillips?

His wife Autumn had to convert from Catholicism so that he could remain in the line of succession.
I think the changes that now allow marriage to a Roman Catholic were proposed well after their wedding, and applied retrospectively?

 

[Pranter]

I don't believe he is in the line of succession. She didn't have to convert at all.


LaRae

 

[Rosena6]

I don't believe he is in the line of succession. She didn't have to convert at all.


LaRae

Both of Princess Anne's children are.
She converted for sure. It was widely reported back then.

 

[Countessmeout]

I don't believe he is in the line of succession. She didn't have to convert at all.


LaRae

Peter is certainly in line of succession. As a legitimate protestant descendent of Sophia of Hannover (the only requirements) he was born in line of succession. And by marrying a protestant (required at the time of his marriage) and having the permission of his grandmother, he maintained it. Peter is currently 13th and his daughters 14th and 15th. There are something like 5000 heirs to the throne.

His wife Autumn had to convert from Catholicism so that he could remain in the line of succession.
I think the changes that now allow marriage to a Roman Catholic were proposed well after their wedding, and applied retrospectively?

Because amending a succession law is not a simple thing, takes times and the agreement of the realms the queen rules under. Changing the laws to allow a grandson who was at the time of his marriage 11th in line to the throne, to marry a catholic would be a stretch.

If he had married her without her converting, he would have been reinstated in succession eventually. George, the Earl of St Andrews lost his place in succession when he married a catholic in 1988. He was returned to the line of succession with the passing of the new act and is now 35th.

 

[Pranter]

Both of Princess Anne's children are.
She converted for sure. It was widely reported back then.

I know she converted...I said she didn't have to convert.


LaRae

 

[Pranter]

Peter is certainly in line of succession. As a legitimate protestant descendent of Sophia of Hannover (the only requirements) he was born in line of succession. And by marrying a protestant (required at the time of his marriage) and having the permission of his grandmother, he maintained it. Peter is currently 13th and his daughters 14th and 15th. There are something like 5000 heirs to the throne.

I was thinking about the permission to marry issue...confused myself!

LaRae

 

[Mbruno]

His wife Autumn had to convert from Catholicism so that he could remain in the line of succession.
I think the changes that now allow marriage to a Roman Catholic were proposed well after their wedding, and applied retrospectively?

The requirement not to marry a Catholic was not in the Royal Marriages Act, but actually in the Act of Settlement 1701. That section of the latter act was repealed by the Succession to the Crown Act 2013.

If Autumn had not converted to Anglicanism at the time she married Peter, he would have been removed from the line of succession. However, he would have been reinstated, as Prince Michael of Kent was, in 2015, when the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 came into force, since the repeal of the prohibition of marriages to Catholics was retroactive.

As Countessmeout said, changing the succession law is actually quite complicated because it requires legislative action by other countries (though not all countries) where the Queen is also Head of State. In the case of the Succession to the Crown Act, the whole process took about 4 years to be completed, starting with the 2011 Perth Agreement. There is actually a very detailed timeline account in the Perth Agreement article on the English Wikipedia.

 

[Countessmeout]

I was thinking about the permission to marry issue...confused myself!

LaRae

Back when Peter married, even he required permission to marry. The whole 'only the top six heirs needs permission' has only been in place since 2015. Prior to that, everyone needed it. That is why you see Peter, Zara, and even people much further from the throne like Marine Mowatt, having letters of permission from the queen. Heck Prince Ernst August of Hannover asked permission when he married Caroline (not sure where he falls any more but he isn't even in the top 100).

 

[Biri]

Autumn didn't have to convert, but maybe she wanted to?

 

[Gawin]

Autumn didn't have to convert, but maybe she wanted to?

I think you're probably right. When it happened someone pointed out that she probably just wanted to attend the same church as her husband and any future children and since Peter wasn't going to convert to Roman Catholicism, she made the move instead.

There was practically no chance Peter would ever succeed to the throne so the argument that she converted only to keep his place in the line of succession doesn't hold water.

 

[Denville]

I don't believe he is in the line of succession. She didn't have to convert at all.


LaRae

of course he is in the line of succession. He is the queen's grandson.. why would he not be in the line of sucession.

I think you're probably right. When it happened someone pointed out that she probably just wanted to attend the same church as her husband and any future children and since Peter wasn't going to convert to Roman Catholicism, she made the move instead.

There was practically no chance Peter would ever succeed to the throne so the argument that she converted only to keep his place in the line of succession doesn't hold water.

or she may have felt that life and what happens.. is always uncertain.. and Peter had a chance of succeeding.. albeit a very remote one.

 

[Mbruno]

Autumn didn't have to convert, but maybe she wanted to?

If she had not converted, Peter would have been excluded at the time from the line of succession. As I said before, he would have been reinstated, however, in 2015 when the Succession of the Crown Act 2013 came into force.

Obviously, when he got married, Peter could not have foreseen that the law of succession would be eventually changed in the future to remove the ban on marriages to Catholics and that the change would be retroactive. I don't know the details of his engagement to Autumn, but I suspect she was told she had to convert for the engagement to go through.

Prince Michael of Kent, who was much further down in the line of succession, married a Catholic and accepted the sanction of losing his succession rights at the time. He is now back as 45th in line.

 

[Pranter]

of course he is in the line of succession. He is the queen's grandson.. why would he not be in the line of sucession.

You saw this but you didn't see the following posts clearing that up?


LaRae

 

[Biri]

If she had not converted, Peter would have been excluded at the time from the line of succession. As I said before, he would have been reinstated, however, in 2015 when the Succession of the Crown Act 2013 came into force.

Obviously, when he got married, Peter could not have foreseen that the law of succession would be eventually changed in the future to remove the ban on marriages to Catholics and that the change would be retroactive. I don't know the details of his engagement to Autumn, but I suspect she was told she had to convert for the engagement to go through.

Prince Michael of Kent, who was much further down in the line of succession, married a Catholic and accepted the sanction of losing his succession rights at the time. He is now back as 45th in line.

Peter was so far in the line of succesion he didn't have any chance to become King.
Autumn might not have been a practising Catholic, might have studied Anglican Theology and attending Anglican masses and thinking about converting before meeting Peter; she may have come to conclusion that Anglican Church suits her more.
Many converts have so.

 

[Gawin]

Obviously, when he got married, Peter could not have foreseen that the law of succession would be eventually changed in the future to remove the ban on marriages to Catholics and that the change would be retroactive. I don't know the details of his engagement to Autumn, but I suspect she was told she had to convert for the engagement to go through.
.

I'm skeptical she would have been told she HAD to convert. That's not the Queen's style. Can you imagine the outcry if the public ever found out? I believe it was pointed out that Peter would lose his place in the succession if she didn't, but the choice was hers.

or she may have felt that life and what happens.. is always uncertain.. and Peter had a chance of succeeding.. albeit a very remote one.

I doubt that VERY much. In order to move to the #1 spot Peter would have had to lose three healthy uncles and six equally healthy cousins. I don't think that could be chalked up to the "uncertainty" of life.

And if that's the way Autumn thought Peter would have run from her as fast as his legs could carry him.

 

[Denville]

True. There was no reason for her to HAVE to convert.. peter would be out of the succession, but even back years ago, it was very very unlikely that he would become King. but perhaps he wanted/ Autumn wanted to keep the possibility alive...
or perhaps she did feel it was best for them to follow one denomination.. or she felt a genuine desire to join the Anglican church...

 

[Osipi]

Basically, the way I see it is that on one hand you have the RC church and the Pope. On the other hand, you have the CoE church without the Pope. There really isn't a conversion to a different faith or set of beliefs. Same Christian church basically worshiping the same God.

I think many people today view Christian religions like they do cars. Some like Land Rovers, some like Aston Martins and some prefer Ford. In the end, they're still a car that'll get you to where you're going.

 

[Gawin]

At the time Autumn reportedly told Hello! magazine much the same thing: "In my eyes, it is, after all, the same religion."

 

[Denville]

Basically, the way I see it is that on one hand you have the RC church and the Pope. On the other hand, you have the CoE church without the Pope. There really isn't a conversion to a different faith or set of beliefs. Same Christian church basically worshiping the same God.

I think many people today view Christian religions like they do cars. Some like Land Rovers, some like Aston Martins and some prefer Ford. In the end, they're still a car that'll get you to where you're going.

There are different beleifs, yes it is the same religion, Christianity but there are different and often conflciting beliefs in different denominations. Some people may regard the differences as minimal.. Others may not. Some may feel that having been brought up in one church, in adulthood or later life, their views have changed and they prefer another one that chimes more with what they now feel and believe..

 

[Ish]

Several posts discussing the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 have been moved to the related thread.