Autumn Kelly Converts: Peter Phillips Keeps Place in Succession - May 2008

[Angeline]

Nicely put. All worshipping the same God. We wish her well. She has done things which take courage including the interview without anyone else's "permission". After breaking a few "rules" and "norms" she will come to be known as the independent thinker amongst them. If she needed the money and it was a decent spread with nice clothes. I hope it helped them out. I know she has been heavily criticized for "selling out". She has already done a few things to accommodate them and earned the money prior to being on the civil list. (They are on the civil list, right?) I say leave them alone and let them to their happiness.

 

[Elspeth]

They aren't on the Civil List, and they don't do any royal engagements. Princess Anne's children wouldn't have been on the Civil List even before it was shrunk; she wanted them to grow up to be private citizens.

 

[Angeline]

That's admirable. I think Autumn and Peter had an opportunity to set themselves up with more money. She was not born wealthy and might have wanted to have some of her own money going in. Good for her.

 

[pius x]

That's admirable. I think Autumn and Peter had an opportunity to set themselves up with more money. She was not born wealthy and might have wanted to have some of her own money going in. Good for her.

Admirable to choose wealth over faith?

 

[Elspeth]

I don't think Angeline was drawing any sort of comparison between wealth and faith; she was talking about the decision to sell photo rights to Hello, unless I'm misunderstanding.

 

[Duchess]

faith and wealth have nothing to do with each other. one can be wealthy and very faithful or poor and have no faith. autumn's decision to convert to another faith is being viewed, by some, like an act of treason...how sad.

 

[Angeline]

Admirable to choose wealth over faith?

What does a deal with "HELLO" magazine have to do with FAITH?
I was simply referring to her/their choice to do a paid photospread.
Everyone and the press seems to have a grande opinion about it.
It might seem like a public issue, but IMO they have a right to make
their own money. And perhaps she wanted to have some money of
her own on the scale she is marrying into? I doubt her salary would
compare.

 

[Nitefeatherz]

It would also, I think, lessen attempts of photographers to try to compete for the best "wedding" shots, if the magazines knew that the photo rights to it had been sold- I think most most magazines would be leery of messing around in violations of copyright?

But that's just a random thought. I've seen celebrities that did that although I haven't seen any royalty do things that way.

 

[Elise27]

It's a silly law that is discriminatory and has no place in modern society and is insulting to those subjects of her majesty who are catholic-which are a lot.
To me it is completely unbelievable that such a law would still be in place. I dont think that Autumn was religious otherwise she wouldnt have changed her religion, but the very fact that she should feel the need to, whether she had to do it or not, is absurd.

 

[Kotroman]

The same (or similar, mutatis mutandis) rule exists in almost every other ruling family in world:

1. Princess Marie of Denmark had to convert before marrying Prince Joachim of Denmark. She was not forced to by law and Joachim wouldn't have lost his postion if the line of succession, but she was forced to convert by custom and tradition.
2. Queen Noor of Jordan converted to Islam, although she was not forced to by law - she could've been queen anyway, although her children would not be in the line of succession.
3. The Duke of Edinburgh was not forced to convert by law, but he has still converted.
4. Queen Sophia of Spain had to convert too (remember, her husband's accession was a small possibility back then), though I am not sure whether she was forced to by law.

The exception, of course, is the Royal Family of the Netherlands. If other countries have these unwritten rules, I don't see anything wrong with the British having it written down. Even if the law is changed, I doubt that any British prince would marry a Catholic, just like I doubt that any Spanish infante would marry a Protestant.

 

[Duchess Ravenna]

These religious requirements seem to me to be utterly outdated and inappropriate to the multifaith nations of today.

 

[Kotroman]

These religious requirements seem to me to be utterly outdated and inappropriate to the multifaith nations of today.

I agree to some point. However, you have to agree that an Eastern Orthodox couldn't be Head of the Church of England/Denmark/Norway. It's also unimaginable that a descendant of the Sun goddess (i.e. The Emperor of Japan; legendary) follows any religion other than Shinto.

Anyway, when most members of the royal family follow the state religion, the monarchy is safer.

 

[MARG]

I understand the need to change their denomination where the spouse will become head of the state Church however, I do not believe that it was any big deal to make that choice. Presbyterian to Lutheran, Greek Orthodox to Church of England etc. They are all just that, denominations.

Where someone changes from Roman Catholic to Church of England it is a big deal. Even if we've been born RC or Protestant and never seen the inside of a church since our respective Baptisms, it suddenly raises it's ugly head and we have to make a choice. I believe Autumn fell into this category.

Personally I am not a little amused at the similarity of the order of service and liturgy between our local RC and Anglican Churches.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The reason for any similiarities rests with Elizabeth I and her compromise over religion.
The ligurgy isn't a problem but more central beliefs at the core of the teachings - Papal Infallibility and Transsubstantation are too different for the two branches of Christianity to come together in the foreseeable future in my opinion.

 

[qzwxec]

It`s so far the probability that Peter Phillips could be King Of England.

No one can ever be "King of England" anymore. That title hasn't existed since 1801. However, he could be King of Great Britain & No. Ireland

 

[Alison20]

I have read this whole thread through - which I have just belatedly discovered! Being a fairly unreligious person (I think many of the world's troubles over the centuries have been caused by too many bigoted people trying to force their religion onto other people) I can't really see why everyone is so upset at Autumn converting to CofE. It makes sense both on a personal level (all the family being the same religion) and on a national level (respects Peter's family's traditions/the law of the country they live in).

No-one made any fuss when Pss Muna al Hussein converted to Islam, or later Queen Nur did so. Jordan is a Muslim country and the people would have been outraged if they had not. It was taken in its stride when Pss Sophia of Greece changed from Greek Orthodox to RC when she married Pr Juan Carlos (and Queen Victoria's granddaughter Pss Ena converted when she married King Alfonso). I am not sure if there is a law as such in Spain, but it would be inconcievable for a Protestant/Orthodox/Muslim/Jewish King or his consort to sit on the throne of Their Most Catholic Majesties. I also remember CP Felipe having to give up his Norwegian girlfriend because she was not Catholic, Pr Jean of France having to give up his German fiancee because she was not Catholic, and A/D Karl of Austria's wife Francesca having to convert to RC before she married. And the latter two families are not even ruling. (A/D Georg of Austria did marry a German Protestant, but there was a bit of an outcry about that, and the children had to be RC.)

The point I am making is that it is traditional for people marrying into Royal Families to convert to the faith of that family/country. It shows respect for the traditions of that country, and love for the person they are marrying. I am very surprised at some of the personal criticism that is being level at Autumn in this thread.

 

[windsorgirl]

Well said, Alison20! To add to the list, both Mary and Marie of Denmark converted to the Lutheran Church in conjunction with their marriages, I believe.

 

[georgiea]

The point I am making is that it is traditional for people marrying into Royal Families to convert to the faith of that family/country. It shows respect for the traditions of that country, and love for the person they are marrying. I am very surprised at some of the personal criticism that is being level at Autumn in this thread.

Very well said Alison. Your thought are just common sense.

 

[MARG]

Well said, Alison20! To add to the list, both Mary and Marie of Denmark converted to the Lutheran Church in conjunction with their marriages, I believe.

Very well said indeed! However, Mary only changed denomination. She did not "Convert". There is very little difference between Protestant denominations that came out of the Reformation. Liturgical not Doctrinal as is the case between the Protestant and Roman Catholic Churches.

So, while it is true that Autumn converted, Mary did not.

 

[agogo]

I think that it is sad that the British monarchy still has this rule, renounce Catholicism or your spouse will lose their place in line to the throne. Such prejudice. Henry VII started all this mess with his adultery.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I think that it is sad that the British monarchy still has this rule, renounce Catholicism or your spouse will lose their place in line to the throne. Such prejudice. Henry VII started all this mess with his adultery.

It was Henry VIII who separated the Church in England from the Roman Catholic church but it was the Parliament of the day, in 1701 that passed the legislation in order to prevent the Roman Catholics and thus the Pope from getting a hold of England and Scotland again after the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and the failure of Mary II, Queen Anne and William III to produce legitimate protestant heirs. It was necessary to remove the 50+ people with better blood claims than George I (or actually his mother at the time although she had died before acceeding to the throne) claiming the throne.

Britain is more liberal than other royal houses where the spouse has to be of the official faith e.g. Mary had be become Lutheran rather than remain Presbyterian but had she married William she wouldn't have had to do so.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I think that it is sad that the British monarchy still has this rule, renounce Catholicism or your spouse will lose their place in line to the throne. Such prejudice. Henry VII started all this mess with his adultery.

It's the way the royal family works, and it suits them so it's fine. They have had no problems with it.
And it was Henry VIII.

 

[Alison20]

It crosses my mind whether all those who were outraged/upset at Autumn changing to C of E are going to be similarly outraged/upset that Charlene Wittstock will have to become Catholic to marry Albert II. I will accept change in the UK system (which has worked and kept the peace for centuries) when there is change in places like Monaco and Spain. As things stand, the Royal Families in almost all countries mainly have the religion of the majority of the people. Until you take religion out of all the major celebrations and events in countries, these should be celebrated in the way most people are comfortable with.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Who was outraged/ upset when Autumn converted?
And who says any of the people who knew about Autumn's conversion even care about Charlene.

 

[Alison20]

Well, I spent a lot of time reading the whole of this thread and I certainly got the impression that a lot of people were upset and even outraged that she should have been 'forced' to convert. It is of course possible that I have misunderstood several postings. It is also true that many people who are interested in Autumn are not interested in Charlene. But it struck me that the information that Charlene had converted to RC was just accepted as normal, and no-one queried it. I wondered why, as I feel that 'what is sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander'.

 

[Zonk]

You make very valid points Alison20...and you are correct in assuming that any of the posts in the previous five pages could be construed as outrage, disgust and frankly not undertsanding the reasons why Autumn converted. Its a personal decision that was her and hers alone to make. And if she is okay with that, than that should be the end of the discussion.

Also, it is extremly important to remember all the others royals who converted as well.

I think, however, the outrage has more to do the fact that if Autumn had remained a Roman Catholic Peter would have lost his place in succession. Which let's face it, with 10 other people in front of him, I am not sure it would have made such a difference.

The fact that is if he had married an Muslim, an atheist or any other religion it wouldn't have a been a big deal, and that is my problem with the law. But I am not a British citizen, a Catholic nor am I in the running to marry any one on the list of succession so I guess it doesnt matter what I think

 

[Lumutqueen]

Well i'm sure she wasn't forced, if she did not want to convert then i'm sure that Peter would have given up his place in line for the throne.
It's possible because Charlene is converting to Roman Catholicism am I right? Where as Autumn converted to Anglicanism?

 

[Zonk]

Well it would be hard to compare Great Britian with Monaco but is there any law in Monaco that says that Princes cant be married to non Catholics?

I would say that main issue with Autumn converting that it implies that the law discriminates against those who marry Catholics and not those who marry other religions.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Well if Charlene's converted, that would mean you would have to be Catholic to marry, wouldn't it?

 

[Zonk]

Charlene's conversion could be many things...it could be that she wants to share the same religion as her husband, that she wants any children to be raised in the Catholic faith like her husband....it doesn't necessarily mean that if she doesn't convert Albert will lose his throne.