August 2008 "Marlborough House Set"

[Elspeth]

I think Bertie's antics did upset Alexandra to an extent, because there were a few long trips back to Denmark and other places where it's stated in biographies that she was getting away because she was fed up with him.

In her situation she couldn't do what the ladies in the Marlborough House Set did and have affairs, however discreet, because it would have been more likely to be made public and a lot more damaging if it had been. There would also be the issue of taxpayer funding of those younger children who didn't look all that much like daddy, to say nothing of it being illegal to have an affair with the wife of the heir to the throne.

So even though she was one of the social leaders of the set, she would have been separate from a lot of the nocturnal goings on. I'm not sure if that changed the way in which other members of the set perceived her, but between that and her deafness, she must have been quite isolated. No wonder she was such a clinging mother.

 

[Attaining Grace]

re: deafness

I don't think that people often realise how incredibly isolating deafness is. The deaf person often becomes irritable because he or she can't hear. The people around them don't like repeating things all the time. It must have been extremely difficult for Queen Alexandra.

 

[Menarue]

I think there was another reason for Alexandra´s long visits home to Denmark. It seems they were all so close and from the moment they got together it was one long juvenile romp with practical jokes and it must have been wonderful to get away from the stiff British court for a rest and a taste of her childhood.
I think that Alexandra was very devoted to Bertie and in his way he was very devoted to her. They spoiled their children and gave them a fun life, in fact it was Queen Victoria her referred to her Wales grandchildren as
"savages".
Being deaf must have kept her out of the most interesting of conversations and she must have found it hard to keep up with what was being said around but she seemed to enjoy the social life she led, which in a way is surprising.

 

[ysbel]

Yes, I wonder if the Danes weren't a little bit too close. Alexandra and Minne gave me the impression of Southern belles for whom no man could be as good as their daddy. That must have been a bit annoying for their husbands.

The photographs that Alexandra later took and were published show how close she still was to her family. Some seemed to be celebratory of King Christian's reign. There is one of throngs of people in the palace courtyard celebrating King Christian's jubilee, some of her father as King inspecting the Royal Guards, and another one with the King holding the hand of little David, the future Duke of Windsor. So Alexandra not only trotted her children to her father's home, she trotted out her grandchildren to Amalienborg too. I wonder what Mary thought of that.

King Christian and Queen Louise seemed to be close to their children but they also seemed to be very laissez-faire, not really wanting to impose their will upon them. The heavy-handedness of her mother-in-law, Queen Victoria, must have come as a shock to Alexandra.

 

[Empress]

The questions for today -

. Do you think the relationship between the Duke of Connaught and Leonie Leslie would have been portrayed as platonic by an author who was not related to Leonie?

2. Had the Duke and Leonie both been widowed and free to marry, would a marriage between them have been possible?

3. Edward becomes King during this part of the book. Does this affect the workings of the Marlborough House Set, and do the morals of that set have any more influence on the rest of society in the post-Victorian era?

4. There are several stories of members of this group being indifferent or even cruel to their children. Do you think this has anything to do with the emphasis on relationships and love affairs outside of their families?

5. Do you think the charitable work, such as done by Daisy Warwick and Gladys de Grey, made up for the disproportionate wealth and frivolous lifestyles of the upper classes?

6. The King was characterised by extreme loyalty to his friends, even when they were in trouble. Is this a quality that the monarch can afford to have?

 

[Attaining Grace]

5. I'll answer this question first. I don't think that you can really say that the charitable work was enough, but it's certainly very much in their favour. The aristocracy tended to fight against many reforms which were designed to help the working classes, but they also did a lot for them and preserved England's heritage. This is one of the reasons why Britain never had a revolution.

I should have said Great Britain's heritage, not only England's!

 

[Elspeth]

I was pleasantly surprised how much charitable work was being done by people like Daisy Warwick. I'd been under the impression that most of it was fairly token stuff being done to ease the consciences of people who owned most of the wealth of the country, and was focused very narrowly on the dependants of the great estates of the large landowners, but some of the work being done back then was the basis for major charitable endeavours that are still going on, and within the confines of believing that the distribution of wealth was acceptable, there was some impressive stuff going on. Sometimes you get the impression that the Marlborough House Set just engaged in frivolity and idle pleasure, but there were the seeds of significant social change under way.

 

[Russophile]

E, I think there were seeds there before, Princess Alice was hugely responsible for many social changes in Darmstadt. Did her sisters who stayed with Victoria keep that up? I haven't read much about them.
But yes, it is a pleasant surprise after reading about how many of the set were going into bankruptcy just to entertain Bertie!

 

[Picmajik]

other factors to consider

Originally Posted by Elspeth
I found it interesting that these rules seemed to be set up for the benefit of the men - they wanted their wives to be virgins and to be sure that their eldest son was their own, but they still wanted to have other women - and yet women seemed to be happy to go along with it and to enforce the rules especially where their daughters were concerned. The whole system seemed to be set up to exploit women, but the women were some of the fiercest defenders.

I don't agree with this entirely, Elspeth. The women had to be virgins before they married but after they married they could usually do what they liked as long as they were discreet! Some of the married women in the Edwardian era had many affairs and their husbands seemed to be quite happy about it - it was a probably an honour if their wives were mistresses of the Prince of Wales. Lily Langtry and Jennie Churchill are just some who come to mind. (I am not sure if Jennie and Edward VII were actually lovers. A nasty book has recently been written about her suggesting that she had about 300 lovers, but I think that's very doubtful!) Women often had their lover's babies and their husbands often 'looked the other way' and brought the children up as their own. Lady Diana Cooper's father, for example, was commonly thought to be someone other than her father.

Best Regards,
Lisa

I think other factors that we do not consider today are also in play. Depending on how these women were raised, sex was only a wifely duty for procreation and only the men "enjoyed" it. Even though that sounds outlandish to us today, I know that is still the attitude that my grandmother had. I know other family members believed that as long as they didn't have to "do it", husband could do whatever he wanted as long as it was discreet. Another factor was lack of birth control and treatment for any STDs, even if the woman was inclined to have an affair it still had more impact for her if she were "caught" either through pregnancy, disease, or scandal. This wasn't just a Victorian idea, many women and men have overlooked dalliances as long as it was mutually beneficial. Many political favors and advances in social standing have been gained by using wives and daughters as pawns (Henry VIII anyone?). I know some people now who still have the attitude of "just don't bring anything home" and the husband can play all he wants. Not sure I can agree with that but it works for some.

 

[Russophile]

But you know, it seems to me, that women, like Daisy, Countess Warwick, who were pretty financially independent really enjoyed the freedom money gave them. Superbly confident and played by her own rules. I'll just bet that was an aphrodisiac to the men folks!

 

[Elspeth]

I'm sure that's true, but it seemed an awfully chancy business. Some of those women were fairly trapped in their situations, dependent on husbands or fathers or sons to keep them going, whereas others seemed to have a lot of freedom. Makes you wonder what some of them could have accomplished with some financial independence.

 

[Attaining Grace]

The aristocracy certainly did have odd ideas about women. I was amazed when I read in another book that Lady Diana Cooper's mother warned her not to become a nurse in case she was raped by a patient! The patients were injured soldiers.

 

[Empress]

Just to see if this gets the discussion moving any more, there will be no formal questions this week. As we are at the end of the book, please now feel free to discuss the book at will. Although if you have found anything particularly interesting in the last chapters, it would be great to hear it!

 

[Elspeth]

Well, I must admit that when I got to the chapter about Arthur Balfour and Lady Elcho, I did wonder if any of the members of that set spent any time sleeping with their spouses. No wonder some of those people despised the future George V and Queen Mary for being boring!

 

[Attaining Grace]

I am intrigued by the relationship between Jennie Churchill and Edward VII. Anita Leslie argues that they didn't have an affair but 'the hour of bliss' seems incriminating! What do you think of the way that the author handles this mystery? She's very anxious to defend Jennie's innocence in this matter.

 

[Elspeth]

I think that's part of the peril of having a biased individual write the book. I suppose it's possible that there was nothing sexual going on, but Edward VII's reputation does make that a little unlikely. The author also goes to some lengths to say that Leonie's relationship with the Duke of Connaught was platonic. All these platonic Jeromes in the midst of such a non-platonic group of people!

I was quite intrigued by the description of Queen Alexandra and Princess Victoria. Toria always seems to be such an unsympathetic character to those of us who know her mostly from the time of George V's reign, but it sounds as though she was quite appealing as a younger woman. It's really quite amazing how Queen Alexandra has got away with such an uncritical press when she was so selfish. I suppose that being beautiful and also being Queen didn't hurt...

I've started reading "The Perfect Summer" by Juliet Nicolson, which is an account of life in England during the summer of 1911, just after Edward VII's death and during the lead-up to World War I. Some of the same characters are appearing, in particular Gladys Ripon and Theresa Londonderry, and there's also an account of the way Lady Ripon behaved with Lady Londonderry's love letters, which led to the estrangement between the Londonderrys. It's interesting to see a different perspective on some of these people, especially during the new reign when the King and Queen were quite different from Edward and Alexandra, although she's silent on the subject of whether Jennie Churchill had had an affair with the King.

 

[Parrothead]

The questions for today -

. Do you think the relationship between the Duke of Connaught and Leonie Leslie would have been portrayed as platonic by an author who was not related to Leonie?

2. Had the Duke and Leonie both been widowed and free to marry, would a marriage between them have been possible?

OK...First I have to apologize for coming into this conversation so late..and my second apology if I totally screwed up quoting Empress on this reply. It's my first attempt at doing a quote in a reply.

This book has long been a favorite of mine. In fact I received this book from my All-Things-English-Loving Grandmother many many years ago. It has always been an interesting read for me.

I've often wondered if Anita Leslie censored her knowledge when it came to her grandmother and the Duke of Connaught. Perhaps she didn't want to spill some family secrets. I think that had both parties been free to marry they would have done so.

I think the book does a nice job of introducing us to many of the characters of Edwardian England, even if some may not have been intimates of the Marlborough House set. The book does a good job showing how the upper class spent their time and money during that era.

 

[Attaining Grace]

I've read The Perfect Summer, Elspeth, and I enjoyed it very much. I read it a long time ago, however, so I might read it again now so that I can see the author's different perspective.

 

[Elspeth]

It's interesting to see the same characters from a different perspective. Juliet Nicolson is also the granddaughter of members of the set, or at least of members of the aristocracy during that time, but her family isn't as prominent in the book as Anita Leslie's in the Marlborough House Set. I liked the way The Perfect Summer took up pretty well where The Marlborough House Set left off, and brought things into the new reign. I'm on the last chapter at the moment.

 

[Attaining Grace]

I didn't realise that Juliet Nicolson is the granddaughter of members of the set! I really enjoyed that book so it will be lovely to read it again.

 

[Russophile]

It's interesting to see the same characters from a different perspective. Juliet Nicolson is also the granddaughter of members of the set, or at least of members of the aristocracy during that time, but her family isn't as prominent in the book as Anita Leslie's in the Marlborough House Set. I liked the way The Perfect Summer took up pretty well where The Marlborough House Set left off, and brought things into the new reign. I'm on the last chapter at the moment.

You can always add it as a Book of the month. . . .

 

[Roslyn]

I was very interested to read this thread. I enjoyed "The Marlborough House Set" very much. I found the insight the author could provide due to her particular knowledge and personal connection with some of the players to be one of the interesting features.

Of course one must be cautious when a biographical account is written by a relative of the subjects of the book, and those of you who wonder about the relationships between Leonie and Arthur, and between Jennie and "Tumtum"....., might also be interested in reading "Fortune's Daughters: The Extravagant Lives of the Jerome Sisters: Jennie Churchill, Clara Frewen and Leonie Leslie", by Elisabeth Kehoe. For reviews see: FORTUNE'S DAUGHTERS, by Elisabeth Kehoe Kehoe has a doctorate in history and her book is much longer and more scholarly than Leslie's, but still easy to read.

Kehoe wasn't able to find any evidence that the two Jerome sisters were definitely having affairs with Queen Victoria's sons, but she does go as far as saying Jennie was probably the Prince of Wales' lover. She also says that after the Duchess of Connaught's death, the Duke turned to Leonie for comfort and that they remained intimate for the next 25 years and that the Duke never remarried. She says that "if" Leonie and Arthur were having an affair, Leonie's son Lionel could have been Arthur's child, but she says there is no evidence of this, and also that Leonie was always very discreet.

Leonie and Arthur exchanged thousands of letters, and they were certainly extremely close for forty years, and likewise Jennie and the Prince of Wales had a very close relationship for decades. One thing I find particularly interesting is the fact that Jennie and Leonie remained friends with the Princess of Wales/Queen and the Duchess of Connaught respectively.

"The Perfect Summer" is now on my "want" list.