Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[Michael HR]

Anna Anderson

I was reading borisRom post with regard to Anna Anderson as above and note that final paragraph.

While I am no expert I note the DNA results that have been published.

With the assistance of mtDNA via HRH Prince Philip my understanding is that it has been confirmed that Empress Alexandra and three daughters were found in the first mass grave outside Ekaterinburg. There was some argument on who the fourth daughter was and that at that time was missing. Russia stated Maria and America stated Anastasia.

We then move on to the discovery of the 2nd grave and again with the assistance of mtDNA we are informed that in this grave lay the remains of Alexis and the fourth daughter, ether Maria or Anastasia.

Therefore by DNA all four daughters have been accounted for and that sadly no one got out of the Ipatiev House alive that night.

Moving on, with the assistance of the mtDNA samples of Anna Anderson were sent for testing and the result showed that Anna Anderson could not be related to the maternal line of the Empress Alexandra as there was no mtDNA match. Further, tests confirmed that there was a mtDNA match with the member of the familly of Franziska Schanzkowskathat some had argued Anna Anderson had belonged to for many years.

Over the years that I have watched the Anna Anderson case, some 40 odd by now, I always kept an open mind on this topic as there was a great deal of information that stood her argument and suggested that she might had been Anastasia. However the DNA evidence we have now is compelling which is why I assume the Russian Government acepted the results and allowed the burial in St Petersburg of the first remains found. Had they had doubts I do not think they would have allowed this to take place.

I will of course continue to read and have recently purchased a number of books. Again I will look at evidence as presented but unless something comes forward to show that a mistake in results had taken place, what I cannot imagine, I would not I think change my mind. I am not concerned with the chain of custody as this does not change the end result of the myDNA done which clearly shows no mtDNA match and therefore no membershi of the Romonov family.

The story of Anna Anderson is very intresting but for me now for reasons that do not say she was but how she managed the sustain the argument for so long.

Michael HR

 

[Elspeth]

Once again:
(http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...and-duchess-anastasia-16118-7.html#post729861)
Anna Anderson and GD Anastasia: Cinderella’s glass slippers.

1. GD Anastasia had CONGENITAL “Hallux Valgus” (bunions).
The identity of the congenital deformity of GD Anastasia's feet, which was very pronounced, is not only visible in photographs of the young grand duchess, but was confirmed even by those close to ANR who did NOT believe in AA's identity (for instance, the tsar's
younger sister GD Olga Alexandrovna – and she well knew the imperial children since their birth). It *was* congenital, and it was not caused by anything else. The nurse-maid (of little Anastasia) Shura Tegleva confirmed Anastasia’s congenital bunions too.

2. Anna Anderson had CONGENITAL hallux valgus (bunions) too.
Except of this diagnosis of German doctors (in Dalldorf, 1920), the diagnosis "the congenital “Hallux Valgus" was put also by the Russian doctor Sergey Mihajlovich Rudnev in St.Maria's clinic in the summer of 1925 (AA was very hardly sick of a tubercular infection):
«On her right foot I have noticed strong deformation, OBVIOUSLY, CONGENITAL: the big finger bend to the right, forming a tumour». Hallux Valgus was on her both feet. (Peter Kurth's book [Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson], in Russian, p.99). Doctor Rudnev has cured and has rescued her life in 1925. AA named him «my kind Russian professor who has rescued my life».

3. On July, 27, 1925 to Berlin the spouses Gillard have arrived. Once again: Shura Gillard-Tegleva was the nurse-maid of GD Anastasia in Russia. They have visited very much sick AA in clinic. Shura has asked to show the feet of the patient. The blanket has been cast cautiously away, Shura has exclaimed:
«With [Anastasia] it was the same as here: the right foot was worse than the left» (Peter Kurth."Anastasia. The riddle of Anna Anderson", in Russian, p.121)
***
Now, the statistics data of “Hallux Valgus” (bunions):
-- the "hallux valgus" (HV) has 0,95 % from number of the surveyed women;
-- the first degree of the HV has 89 % from them (= 0,85% from the surveyed women );
-- the third degree of the HV has 1,6 % from them (= 0,0152% from the surveyed women or 1: 6580 );
-- the statistics of a congenital case «hallux valgus» makes (in modern Russia) 8:142 000000, or, approximately, 1:17 750 000!
We can assume the statistics data of a congenital case «hallux valgus» in former Russia did not differ too strongly (let even in some times, 1: 10 000 000). Thus the case of “AA was not ANR” has the probability from 1:10 millions to 1:17 millions.
In addition:
The citation from article about congenital “hallux valgus” of AA (“Gone with the wind”, L-A newspaper "Panorama", February, 2007):
“As one of the orthopedists (advising me) has expressed: «It is easier to find two girls of one age with identical FINGER PRINTS, than with attributes CONGENITAL hallux valgus”
***
Thus, I think (I hope , very rare congenital deformation of feet "hallux valgus" of AA and ANR puts a fat point in fierce disputes of supporters and opponents of Anna Anderson.

Boris

P.S. Of course, I can suppose many opponents (opponents of Anna Anderson) will keep their former opinion, but henceforth they should demonstratively deny down the stated above.
P.P.S. ... and they should deny Peter Kurth's book on former - the main thing!

Thus,
The scientific medical statistics in this case is in 3000 times of more reliability (authentic), than DNA-researches and much more preferable in sense of possibility of mistakes and falsification. Hence, thereof, the burden of an explanation of discrepancy of DNA-tests should lie down completely on the opponents of Anna Anderson. They should find a mistake or traces of falsification. Supporters of Anna Anderson can engage in more important affairs now: in particular, to find-out (investigation) of mess with remains of Imperial family in Russia.

We don't know that Anna Anderson had congenital hallux valgus. We simply have the word of a doctor who treated her for TB that she must have done. That's hardly conclusive. We don't know whether the exact angle of the deformation was the same for both of them. We don't know a lot of things about this claim. We know a lot more about the DNA, which the Anderson apologists are simply brushing aside.

 

[ChatNoir]

The story of Anna Anderson is very intresting but for me now for reasons that do not say she was but how she managed the sustain the argument for so long.
Michael HR

Maybe these were part of the reasons:

It is the Grand Duchess Anastaia Nikolaevna; I have recognized her. It is the same person whom I knew; only the lower part of the face, the mouth, is changed, otherwise nothing. I recognize her: I am not relying on arguments. I am ready to affirm it on oath. (Tatiana Botkin)

Anastasia recognised me as instantly as I had recognised her, and apparently understood at once that I had come as a friend - not an enemy. I watched her, incredulous and fascinated. Her smile, the sound of her voice, her every gesture flooded my mind with endless memories - deeply disturbing, yet also so dear and joyful. She was so obviously, so completely her own self - the adored little Princess of my childhood days, the bewitching Anastasia. It had been my intention to ask her different questions, and guide in a conversation that would permit me to decide whether she was Anastasia or an impostor. Now I no longer needed those questions. (Gleb Botkin)

My heart tells me she is Anastasia. (Olga Alexandrovna)

What has become of the Grand Duchess, she is a veritable ruin. I will do everything I can to help the Grand Duchess. (Pierre Gilliard)

I loved her so much. Why do I love this girl here so much? If you knew how I felt! Can you tell me why I love your patient so much? (Shura Gilliard)

I believe she is the Grand Duchess. (Alexei Volkov)

I affirm she is the Grand Duchess Anastasia. (Captain Felix Dassel)

To the best of my conscience I must acknowledge that Anastasia Tschaikovsky is no one other than my niece, Grand Duchess Anastasia Nicolaievna. I recognized her at once, and further observation only confirmed my first impression. There is for me no doubt: She is Anastasia. (Andrew Vladimirovitch)

I have recognized her, physically and intuitively, through signs which do not deceive... What can I say after having known her? I certainly cannot be mistaken about her identity. (Lili Dehn)

One of the most convincing elements of her personality was a completely unconscious acceptance of her identity. She was herself at all times and never gave the slightest impression of acting a part...I am firmly convinced that the claimant is, in fact, Grand Duchess Anastasia of Russia. (Xenia Leeds)

She isn't my sister. (Felix Schanzkowsky)

 

[Menarue]

Yawn........ You are quoting people who knew nothing about DNA, if they had known about it and had seen the results they would have been extremely sad but very grateful to know the truth. You, Chat, know about DNA and so there is no excuse for you to believe this sad silly myth any longer.

 

[Michael HR]

Thank you Chat. it was an intresting list.

Is there photos of the feet of Anna Anderson showing the condition she had that we can compare to AN's photo showing her condition?

 

[ChatNoir]

Go to peterkurth.com which has a photo of AN showing her right foot. The photo of the older AA's right foot is, I think, in James Lovell's book.

 

[Michael HR]

Thanks and will do

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Yawn........ You are quoting people who knew nothing about DNA, if they had known about it and had seen the results they would have been extremely sad but very grateful to know the truth. You, Chat, know about DNA and so there is no excuse for you to believe this sad silly myth any longer.

Yes, it is very sad how he has to drag out the same old lists again, even in a thread that is about DNA and not quotes. I could post other quotes proving most of the people on that list said otherwise, but I don't want to take the thread any further off topic. This is about DNA and how it holds up in a court of law. Foot conditions or alleged eyewitness testimony do not overrule DNA, as the Innocence project has proven.

 

[Menarue]

My grandmother had hallux valgus, she blamed it on the tight boots she had to wear as a young girl. Now I am wondering if she wasn´t related to the IF.....
I too, couldn´t care whether Anna Anderson and Franziska were the one and same person or not, what I do know is that all members of the IF have now been accounted for, unfortunately all brutally murdered and that is the sad truth.

 

[BorisRom]

My grandmother had hallux valgus, she blamed it on the tight boots she had to wear as a young girl. Now I am wondering if she wasn´t related to the IF.....

Menarue,
Has your grandmother had congenital HV? Has your grandmother had heavier form of HV on right foot?
And... has your grandmother had all other things (qualities) what Anna Anderson had?

 

[Menarue]

No, thank God.

 

[BorisRom]

No, thank God.

Thank you.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Menarue,
Has your grandmother had congenital HV? Has your grandmother had heavier form of HV on right foot?
And... has your grandmother had all other things (qualities) what Anna Anderson had?

My Grandmother was born in June 1901. She was 5'2." She had foot problems that required wearing special shoes. Could she be Anastasia?

 

[BorisRom]

My Grandmother was born in June 1901. She was 5'2." She had foot problems that required wearing special shoes. Could she be Anastasia?

Has your grandmother had congenital HV? Has your grandmother had heavier form of HV on right foot?
And... has your grandmother had all other things (qualities) what Anna Anderson had?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Has your grandmother had congenital HV? Has your grandmother had heavier form of HV on right foot?
And... has your grandmother had all other things (qualities) what Anna Anderson had?

One foot was worse, but I don't remember which. She used to say it was caused by her hips being twisted when her brother cut down a tree with her in it when she was a kid, but I know she was just hiding the secret Ekaterinburg story. See, the REAL Anastasia would not make a public spectacle of herself, she'd want to remain safely anonymous.

I don't think AA had all that much in common with AN. Their faces are very different. If height and feet count, then you must consider my grandmother as well. She is exactly the right age, AA/FS was five years too old.

One thing AA didn't share with AN for sure is DNA!

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Yes, AA was FS a Polish peasant that was in hospitals, institutes and was declared mentally ill. Later in life,she ended up killing herself, owning too many animals, and she was also attacking people with sticks. This wouldn't seem like the real Anastasia. The real Anastasia was much more playful, carefree, and happy. She wasn't ever consider ill, she wouldn't ever end up in that condition. She couldn't even prove to anybody she spoke Russian and French. Of course, others still refuse to except DNA because they want it to still be a mystery.

 

[AGRBear]

Yes, AA was FS a Polish peasant that was in hospitals, institutes and was declared mentally ill. Later in life,she ended up killing herself, owning too many animals, and she was also attacking people with sticks. This wouldn't seem like the real Anastasia. The real Anastasia was much more playful, carefree, and happy. She wasn't ever consider ill, she wouldn't ever end up in that condition. She couldn't even prove to anybody she spoke Russian and French. Of course, others still refuse to except DNA because they want it to still be a mystery.

You really don't believe people who are/were "playful, carefree, and happy" will never become mentally ill?

AGRBear

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

You really don't believe people who are/were "playful, carefree, and happy" will never become mentally ill?

AGRBear

Yes, it's possible if the person had a so many issues in their childhood. The issues affected them so much. Some people from the world war were affected mentally. But, Anastasia was not mentally ill from anything. At the time of captivity and the world war, she was still the same type of fun person that kept the family in high spirits. She always looked on the bright side, dispite everything. I just don't think Anastasia could end up killing herself, even if her life was so unbearable.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

I agree, Anastasia Evidence. AA acted very mentally unstable, and while AA supporters use "Ekaterinburg" for an excuse it's pretty obvious where her problems really came from- FS was declared legally insane "not cured but not dangerous" in 1916, and Anastasia never had any such record. So it makes perfect sense that AA=FS, and the DNA backs this up.

Bear, what do you mean by your post, you say you don't believe AA to be AN, yet you once again make a post that seems to support or attempt to justify that possibility.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Bear, what do you mean by your post, you say you don't believe AA to be AN, yet you once again make a post that seems to support or attempt to justify that possibility.

Bear claims she doesn't believe AA is Anstasia. By her posts it seems like she supports AA. It's very confusing. She still believes that FS wasn't AA.

 

[ChatNoir]

FS was declared legally insane "not cured but not dangerous" in 1916, and Anastasia never had any such record.

And neither did AA.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

And neither did AA.

Of course she was declared mentally ill. She tried to commit sucide, hitting sticks with people, and she was running on the roof necked. She was in a mental insitute before she claimed to be 'Anastasia'. She had so many problems in her life and with her family. She couldn't stand her life and then she tried to kill herself. She was a pretender.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Of course she was declared mentally ill. She tried to commit sucide, hitting sticks with people, and she was running on the roof necked. She always was in a mental institute before she claimed to be 'Anastasia'.

She was in several mental hospitals as all her life. That doesn't happen to sane people. (with or without official diagnosis, she was in there, put in several times, she was crazy, and FS was insane, so there you go!)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Bear claims she doesn't believe AA is Anstasia. By her posts it seems like she supports AA. It's very confusing.

Yes, I have been confused about this for years myself. She always says she doesn't believe in AA yet all her posts favor that possibility or position and always back up Chat and other pro AA supporters, and are always against those of us who say she wasn't AN but FS. So IMO actions speak louder than words.

 

[ChatNoir]

She was in several mental hospitals as all her life. That doesn't happen to sane people. (with or without official diagnosis, she was in there, put in several times, she was crazy, and FS was insane, so there you go!)

So she was crazy? With or without official diagnosis?
Please find me just ONE doctor who adjudged her insane. Just ONE!
Thank you.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Why was she in all those asylums? That doesn't happen to sane people.

As FS, she was 'in and out of sanatoria'. As AA, she was taken to one when she tried to kill herself (which is a sign of mental illness) She was put in other mental institutions over the years, like the time she went on the naked on the roof beating people with sticks rampage in NYC. While you claim the Jennings family 'paid off' somebody to commit her, it's very clear her behavior alone was what caused her to be put where she was sent and rightfully so. Even in the last months of her life, she was taken to Blue Ridge Hospital sick and put in the psychiatric ward. Fearing she'd be put in a mental instititution, her husband abducted her, leading to a police search. She didn't live very long after being found where they'd been hiding in an abandoned, tumbledown house. Don't forget the way they lived, and cremating the pets in the fireplace.This article tells quite a tale of her strangeness, and that was only once she came to Charlottesville!

The Hook - COVER- Jack & Anna: Remembering the czar of Charlottesville eccentrics

ALL the evidence points to AA being mentally ill, and FS was declared insane, so it's just another thing along with the DNA and photos to show she was FS.

 

[ChatNoir]

From "Anastasia, the Riddle of Anna Anderson":
The doctors sent her to the Dalldorf Asylum at the end of March because they had no idea what else to do with her. The diagnosis was "melancholia".

Anastasia had not yet been examined by a psychiatrist, nor would she be until she was carted off to the sanatorium at Katonah. The doctors Wilton Lloyd-Smith had engaged to sign the commitment papers were ready, all the same, to attest to her "untidiness," her "extreme suspicion," and her "delusions of persecution." It cost the Jenningses over one thousand dollars. "Dr. K...called me up," Lloyd-Smith wrote Walter Jennings afterward, "and asked me if I considered $500 for himself, $500 for Dr. Z... and $250 for Dr. W... as an excessive charge for their services... I told him that I considered this perfectly reasonable. In view of the importance to you and to Miss Jennings in having their names on the commitment papers, and in view of the notoriety of the case when it is discovered, the charges are extremely modest."

Meanwhile Anastasia remains at the Sanatorium. She isn't deranged, they say up there, just - well - just in need of attention for her disordered nerves.

At Ilten, meantime, the doctors had been taking notes. "The lack of any symptoms of insanity," wrote Dr. Hans Willige, "was proved so conclusively during the very first examination that we were alreay able to tell Frau Tschaikovsky on the second day that she was not insane and not in need of treatment in an institution...

From "Anastasia, the lost Princess": Finally, in late November, acting in his capacity as legal guardian, Preston had Anastasia committed to Blue Ridge Hospital, where she was placed in the psychiatric ward for observation and examination.
Having found no evidence of mental illness, the doctors had decided to transfer her to the nearby University of Virginia Medical Center by ambulance.

Now, where is that evidence again pointing to her being mentally ill?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Now, where is that evidence again pointing to her being mentally ill?

Her whole life, her behavior, her history of being sent to asylums (again this happening repeatedly just doesn't happen to sane people!) and most of all PRETENDING TO BE A DEAD PRINCESS and possibly even coming to believe her charade.

 

[ChatNoir]

Her whole life, her behavior, her history of being sent to asylums (again this happening repeatedly just doesn't happen to sane people!) and most of all PRETENDING TO BE A DEAD PRINCESS and possibly even coming to believe her charade.

And as we already know, she was NEVER declared insane by any doctor. From an earlier reply of mine, you will also clearly see that she was not the only one to believe that she was Anastasia. Does that mean that we had a whole bunch of insane people out there?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

And as we already know, she was NEVER declared insane by any doctor. From an earlier reply of mine, you will also clearly see that she was not the only one to believe that she was Anastasia. Does that mean that we had a whole bunch of insane people out there?

She was already mentally ill, poor,she had no friends, and she didn't have a good life. That's why she went on pretending to be Anastasia. She wanted something to live for. But, others knew she was already mentally ill from her mental behavoir and the fact she was in many asylums.