Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

The funny thing is that Knopf did not "unmask" AA until 1927, long after Germany's "golden age" had started and the Berlin Police apparently was back in fine form again. Why did Uncle Ernie wait 5 years?

 

[Menarue]

But during that time she couldn't change her DNA.

Bad luck for her and for her "believers".

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Buxhoeveden's books were published in 1928. How many of these books were translated to German, and when? And what books and magazines did Clara Peuthert have? Also, have you read Tatiana Botkin's book? I thought it was only published in Russian.

I was told this by Belochka (you know who she is) who is fluent in Russian. Also a French girl who had read both told me.

If they weren't in German, I'm sure one of her supporters could have told her, they knew several languages. We don't know exxactly what Clara P. had but we do know she had several on the Russian royals, she must have had a thing for them (as we all do)

Well apparently in those 7 years a lot more people disappeared, crimes were committed and the cops had other and better things to do and had to spread themselves to many other cases. Ernie didn't.

The funny thing is that Knopf did not "unmask" AA until 1927, long after Germany's "golden age" had started and the Berlin Police apparently was back in fine form again. Why did Uncle Ernie wait 5 years?

Until then, she was just another quack claimant, it wasn't until she took up with Gleb and her case and fame started to escalate and head toward court and try to get money that she had to be stopped. Nobody's going to take some nut with Tb in a bed to court. Ernie knew she wasn't AN and didn't want his dead niece's name to be stolen, and also she didn't deserve money since she was only a fake.

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

Are you saying he lied in his book and falsified information? How do you know this? What are your sources?

Read the post again - his book is my source. In it he says that Anastasia didn't know German. Their schoolbooks prove they had studied it seriously.

 

[Menarue]

I am sorry but I really think that whether GD Anastasia knew German, or had lessons or not, doesn´t matter that much, it is another thing to know if she was fluent, or could converse in that language and would choose it above other languages that there is no controversy about,as we know she knew them well.
I learnt the piano, on my mother´s insistence, for many years, even took the first Conservatorium exams...I can´t even read a note of music now. I think the problem is that I was never very interested in it, water off a duck´s back. Perhaps her German lessons were more of a chore than a pleasure!

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

I am sorry but I really think that whether GD Anastasia knew German, or had lessons or not, doesn´t matter that much, it is another thing to know if she was fluent, or could converse in that language and would choose it above other languages that there is no controversy about,as we know she knew them well.
I learnt the piano, on my mother´s insistence, for many years, even took the first Conservatorium exams...I can´t even read a note of music now. I think the problem is that I was never very interested in it, water off a duck´s back. Perhaps her German lessons were more of a chore than a pleasure!

She chose it above other languages because she lived in Germany for most of the period from 1920 to the late 1960s - what else should she have spoken there?

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

Felix told Dr. Völler that the card arrived between 8 and 12 days late. He was sure it came from Berlin.

This means he would have received it by the end of February at the latest – almost two weeks before the coup. Therefore the coup and its alleged effect on the post has absolutely no relevance.

Postwar Berlin was not the most stable of places. Surely FS was not the only missing person. The coup lasted those four days, but the strikes that followed, and the hyperinflation and unrest that lasted several years, made things difficult. It wasn't until the monetary system was put on the us gold standard in 1924 that you get the 'golden age' of the Weimar, which of course ended with the depression and eventually Hitler. My point is, the Berlin police drppped the ball on the AA case, they didn't have the time, money or personal interest in it, but Ernie did, and that's why his detectives easily discovered AA to be FS. Really, instead of being villanized by AA supporters, the guy was a super sleuth and should be commended for his fine detective work, since DNA has proven him correct (99.9%) The fact that he was right and the police didn't get the job done proves this. Don't forget that the Berlin police did eventually sign off on Darmstadt's ID of AA as FS. .

I really don’t think that the hyperinflation of the early 1920s would have affected the efficiency of the Berlin police (they were renowned for it) - - their salaries perhaps! And I think you’ll find that what the Berlin police actually said was that the ID of AA as FS was all handled from Darmstadt, not Berlin and they had nothing to do with it. I will check the source for this at the weekend but it is in PK’s book. After all, if they confirmed it, why did they let her have papers under the name of Anastasia Tschaikovsky?

 

[ferrymansdaughter]

Actually there were quite a few.

"Last Days of the Romanovs", the complete report on their murders, was out in 1920.

Pierre Gilliard's "13 Years at the Russian Court" was out in 1921, as were the memoirs of Tatiana Botkin. (interesting note: in the 1921 book she barely mentions the Grand Duchesses and tells only of seeing them from afar, and meeting them in 1911, but later, after the AA case, she wrote another book claiming to have been great friends with Anastasia)

Lili Dehn's book came out in 1922, so did the book about Ernie's trip.

Anna Vyrubova's book, "Memories of the Russian Court", was published in 1923.

Sophie Bux. wrote 2 books in the 20's, one about the family, one about her experiences trying to escape from Russia.

Clara P. had all those books and magazines on the family.

Are the dates you give when they were published in Germany? For example, Gilliard was published in English by Hutchinson of London in 1921, in French by Payot & Cie, Paris, 1922. ) And how do you know Clara had copies of all of these books?

 

[Menarue]

She chose it above other languages because she lived in Germany for most of the period from 1920 to the late 1960s - what else should she have spoken there?

We are talking about GD Anastasia here, her DNA shows that she didn´t live in Germany, unfortunately it showed she died with the rest of her family.
Well either AA or SF may have lived in Germany for those years but they really don´t interest me. I thought we were talking about whether GDA spoke German.

 

[lucien]

This sad story is now milked ad nauseam.To still see people talk in disbelief,ignorance even,on the findings and thus the end of a mystery,is
an insult to the memory of those slaughtered at Ekaterinenburg.

From Moscow:
Russia says remains of last czar's son identified - Science - MSNBC.com

 

[Anna was Franziska]

We are talking about GD Anastasia here, her DNA shows that she didn´t live in Germany, unfortunately it showed she died with the rest of her family.
Well either AA or SF may have lived in Germany for those years but they really don´t interest me. I thought we were talking about whether GDA spoke German.

What the AA supporters are trying to get at is grasping at straws desperately wanting to believe AN had enough knowledge of German that she, as AA, would have been able to speak it when found in the canal. From all the evidence I've seen, I do not believe a real AN would have used German and ignored or refused Russian, English and French, the languages she knew much better. What the proof shows us is that while AN took some German lessons, she was not functional in it, and her aunt Olga tells us she didn't know it and it wasn't used in the family. Since they believe AA and AN to be the same person, they can't separate AN's language skills from AA's.

I do agree with what you and Lucien are saying, I am shocked (though I shouldn't be) that they continue on as usual oblivious to reality even though we have proof there were no survivors (this in addition to the AA DNA tests) I would like to ask them, does this mean they disbelieve the test results, and if so why? Even moreso , what would it take to convince them AN died with the family and AA was an imposter?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Are the dates you give when they were published in Germany? For example, Gilliard was published in English by Hutchinson of London in 1921, in French by Payot & Cie, Paris, 1922. ) And how do you know Clara had copies of all of these books?

It doesn't matter, because the emigres' would have been able to get them from anywhere in any language.

She chose it above other languages because she lived in Germany for most of the period from 1920 to the late 1960s - what else should she have spoken there?

I'm talking about when she was first found, didn't you see the quote by Olga I posted that you requested, where Olga was taken aback that she spoke only German, and was speaking only German (when she spoke at all) since she was found, since the real AN was not functional in German. The preference for German and the lack of the other three played a large role in Olga and Gilliard deciding she wasn't AN.

I really don’t think that the hyperinflation of the early 1920s would have affected the efficiency of the Berlin police (they were renowned for it) - - their salaries perhaps!

Don't salaries and efficiency go hand in hand? Unpaid, or underpaid, workers are disgruntled, have low morale, etc. The great 'renowned efficiency' so touted by AA supporters on this really doesn't make sense considering the circumstances.This was a destitute, damaged, recently defeated place suffering through postwar agony. There was turmoil in the city. The police joined the coup. There were strikes and riots. Thanks to these problems, and the Treaty of Versailles, was unrest all over, and hyperinflation. It's really not realistic to believe everything went on as normal.
::Weimar Germany::

And I think you’ll find that what the Berlin police actually said was that the ID of AA as FS was all handled from Darmstadt, not Berlin and they had nothing to do with it.

They weren't the ones who found it, duh, but they agreed with Darmstadt's ID and approved it. I posted this just a weeek or so for bear, guess you missed it (source: files of Chat)

Hess. Polizeiamten Darmstadt, 20.5.27
"Erkennungsdienst" [Identification Service]
"Referring to the so-called Anastasia of Russia"
"From the Berlin daily report ["Tagesbericht"] No. 32 of 20.4.27 it is signed and signified officially as established that the identity of the `Unbekannte' has been completely assured as being that of Franziska Schanzkowska by the `Kriminalzentrale' of Darmstadt.
"All of this has been taken up and accepted by the police of Berlin.

Signed by Heinz Drescher

 

[ChatNoir]

It doesn't matter, because the emigres' would have been able to get them from anywhere in any language.

And then they read them aloud to her in any language...............

I'm talking about when she was first found, didn't you see the quote by Olga I posted that you requested, where Olga was taken aback that she spoke only German, and was speaking only German (when she spoke at all)

But she clearly understood everything Olga said in Russian.

since she was found, since the real AN was not functional in German.

And who said that AA was "functional" in German?

The preference for German and the lack of the other three played a large role in Olga and Gilliard deciding she wasn't AN.

And still it took them 3 months to decide. Without ever seeing AA again.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And then they read them aloud to her in any language...............

No, studied them for things they could use as 'memories' and told them to her.

But she clearly understood everything Olga said in Russian.

How do you know? Olga didn't say so.

And who said that AA was "functional" in German?

If she weren't, she wouldn't have used it as her only form of communication. If she preferred another language, she could have asked for a translator. You said yourself there was a nurse who knew Russian, she could have used her. But she communicated in German because she was AA/FS.

And still it took them 3 months to decide. Without ever seeing AA again.

You should be glad they gave her that much of a chance instead of denouncing her on the spot like Irene, Bux and Yussoupov.

Reality check time: ALL FAMILY MEMBERS ARE NOW ACCOUNTED FOR. This means all claimants were fake. This means AA got her info from other people. We can only guess how, but we know she did.

 

[ChatNoir]

No, studied them for things they could use as 'memories' and told them to her.

Why?

How do you know? Olga didn't say so.

She did so in a letter to Anatoly Mordvinov of March 30, 1927.

If she weren't, she wouldn't have used it as her only form of communication. If she preferred another language, she could have asked for a translator. You said yourself there was a nurse who knew Russian, she could have used her. But she communicated in German because she was AA/FS.

Yes, Erna Bucholz was fluent in Russian, and AA spoke fluent Russian with her according to Ms. Bucholz's testimony.

You should be glad they gave her that much of a chance instead of denouncing her on the spot like Irene, Bux and Yussoupov.

And still they left Berlin without being able to say that she was not the Grand Duchess.

Reality check time: ALL FAMILY MEMBERS ARE NOW ACCOUNTED FOR. This means all claimants were fake. This means AA got her info from other people. We can only guess how, but we know she did.

Seems to me that Maria is accounted for twice.....

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Why?

To help her pretend to be AN to get money.

She did so in a letter to Anatoly Mordvinov of March 30, 1927.

Got a copy?

Yes, Erna Bucholz was fluent in Russian, and AA spoke fluent Russian with her according to Ms. Bucholz's testimony.

I know we're not allowed to call anybody a liar anymore but the reason I doubt this testimony is because native Russian speakers who went to see her said otherwise.

And still they left Berlin without being able to say that she was not the Grand Duchess.

They gave her more time than anyone else. After she stopped being so emaciated and they were able to investigate and think more they realized she wasn't her. It's really sad, emotion could play a part in it, they wanted her to be AN and maybe were a bit blinded at first but reality took over.

Seems to me that Maria is accounted for twice.....

Maria is not accounted for twice, the Russians call the buried body AN and the burned one Maria. Personally I believe it's the other way around, but they're both dead anyway.

 

[ChatNoir]

To help her pretend to be AN to get money.

What money?

Got a copy?

See Peter Kurth

I know we're not allowed to call anybody a liar anymore but the reason I doubt this testimony is because native Russian speakers who went to see her said otherwise.

I don't think anybody doubted her ability to understand Russian, it was just that she refused to use it. Unless when she forgot and spoke it almost as not being aware of it.

They gave her more time than anyone else. After she stopped being so emaciated and they were able to investigate and think more they realized she wasn't her.

The problem here is: None of them saw her after she regained her health and put on a few pounds. None of them ever saw her out of bed.

It's really sad, emotion could play a part in it, they wanted her to be AN and maybe were a bit blinded at first but reality took over.

And still Gilliard had to talk Olga into it. (see P. Kurth)

 

[Anna was Franziska]

What money?

All those mysterious Tsar bank accounts people used to believe in. The 50,000 crowns Von Kliest was supposed to get if Marie F. accepted AA.

And still Gilliard had to talk Olga into it. (see P. Kurth)

Giliard? I thought you always say it was Xenia? Why can't Olga make up her own mind? I believe she did and was not influenced by anyone.

 

[ChatNoir]

All those mysterious Tsar bank accounts people used to believe in. The 50,000 crowns Von Kliest was supposed to get if Marie F. accepted AA.

I don't think the Tsar's fortune really came into play until AA told Zahle that there was money in the (a) Bank of (in) England when she was at the Mommsen Clinic in 1925. He told Olga, but as you know, nothing was ever located. As for von Kleist, he was the one who collected information from AA, not the other way around.

Giliard? I thought you always say it was Xenia? Why can't Olga make up her own mind? I believe she did and was not influenced by anyone.

According to Botkin, Xenia sent Olga a telegram telling her not to recognize the woman in Berlin. The telegram is supposedly among Zahle's papers.

 

[COUNTESS]

" Supposedly" A very fluid word. I am sure, at the end of all of this skulldugery, greed was a big cause.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Yes it was all about the money!

Chat, so now you're back to Xenia again and not Gilliard? It's very insulting to Olga to say she was influenced by anyone, or that she'd go along with denying a real AN for money. Look at her life, she had no money! She was the 'black sheep' of the family with the 'wrong' marriage who ended up livving on a dirt farm and dying in a small apartment. There were hard feelings between her and Xenia over their mother's estate which lasted a lifetime. This woman was no one's pawn, and was not controlled by anyone, and certainly not 'paid off!'

Look at it like this- IF AA had been AN, and Olga knew it, she'd have been much better off to accept her and help her get money so she could share with her, nobody else was giving her anything! Olga also had the option of backing a known fake AN for a promise of the alleged payoff (which I believe some did) but she had too much honor. The poor thing lost her 2 brothers, nieces and nephew and many other family members to brutal murders, not to mention her homeland, and it's horrible how AA supporters have villanized her for their own pathetic agenda, using her as a convenient scapegoat by painting her as a liar who turned her back on her 'niece' for money. I really do believe now, especially since we have proof all the family died in 1918, that all AA supporters past and present owe this woman an apology.

 

[lucien]

Still going on,no regret,no remorse and ofcourse,no shame to keep on battering on bs that has been written and said for 90 years,some making a good living and most of all profit out of it,as some derelict authors did,and while proven untrue with the sad results recently,the certainty that all,ALL,were butchered in Ekaterinenburg,no,they do not give in one second,cling on to nonsense for dear life as their life is shattered with the findings.

Sorry for that chaps,but you will really have to move on,and find yourself a job worthwhile,maybe as a farmhand who'll know.A healthy life and a different sort of menure.Or invent a new mystery.Or take your medicine on time,for a change.

After all these decades,I wonder would the ROC admit they've been wrong,devious even,as in encouraging nonsense and doubt in peoples minds to a rediculous level.

As one said,let us all remember that the families of Nicky and Alexandra have suffered immensely,the uncertainties on their death,while being accused of not recognising yet another false claimant.Imagine how that must have been,provided that you can ofcourse.Just try,and imagine your closest and most loved one perished and you were left without a clue,just rumours and straight lies on what might have happened and their whereabouts?

Imagine.Sickening isn't it?

 

[Michael HR]

What would be intresting would be a book that tried to explan how, why and with whom AA kept the worlds attention for so long. That would probably sell quite well.

I know some think that AA was AN but the world will only see and hear the DNA evidence which would suggest that she was not.

Chat I will get back to you and your post but have been busy working on a case at work and not much free time.

 

[AGRBear]

This sad story is now milked ad nauseam.To still see people talk in disbelief,ignorance even,on the findings and thus the end of a mystery,is
an insult to the memory of those slaughtered at Ekaterinenburg.

From Moscow:
Russia says remains of last czar's son identified - Science - MSNBC.com

I'm sorry you feel like throwing up your cookies but some of us still find the subject interesting.

My posts are about AA being FS.

Others continue to believe AA is GD Anastasia.

The majority believe the DNA/mtDNA has answered every single question for everyone.

Okay.

Could we continue with some kind of respect for each individual's opinion, PLEASE.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

...[in part]....

Don't salaries and efficiency go hand in hand? Unpaid, or underpaid, workers are disgruntled, have low morale, etc. The great 'renowned efficiency' so touted by AA supporters on this really doesn't make sense considering the circumstances.This was a destitute, damaged, recently defeated place suffering through postwar agony. There was turmoil in the city. The police joined the coup. There were strikes and riots. Thanks to these problems, and the Treaty of Versailles, was unrest all over, and hyperinflation. It's really not realistic to believe everything went on as normal.
::Weimar Germany::

12 March to 17 March was the Kapp Putsch.

There were special police forces which handled the strikes which did not stop the mail.

My opinion is based on Post Office history. AWF's opinion is based on assumption.

The pay to the Weimer Police is quite interesting. Due to the hyperinfation, the police's pay kept pace. Let say they earned 20 dollars a day before hyperinfation, as the money devalued, their pay kept in pace with the 20 dollar value. Sometimes this value changed two or three times a day. So did the pay to the police. The Weimer Republic did NOT want their police to lose sleep over the fact that there was hyperinfation and wanted them to keep their attention on their cases. Also, when food was growing scarce, they had cafeterias set up so the police could have breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Of course, there were police who took money under the table but that occurs everywhere, even, now.

[/FONT][/COLOR]

[/COLOR]They weren't the ones who found it, duh, but they agreed with Darmstadt's ID and approved it. I posted this just a weeek or so for bear, guess you missed it (source: files of Chat)

Hess. Polizeiamten Darmstadt, 20.5.27
"Erkennungsdienst" [Identification Service]
"Referring to the so-called Anastasia of Russia"
"From the Berlin daily report ["Tagesbericht"] No. 32 of 20.4.27 it is signed and signified officially as established that the identity of the `Unbekannte' has been completely assured as being that of Franziska Schanzkowska by the `Kriminalzentrale' of Darmstadt.
"All of this has been taken up and accepted by the police of Berlin.

Signed by Heinz Drescher

I wasn't aware a copy of the Drescher report was found. Thank you AWF.

However, I'm not sure the Berlin police accepted AA was FS. From what I understand, this never reached FS's family, who, as far as I know, continued to believe their daughter/sister was murdered by Grossmann. Felix was quoted as having said something like, "Our sister was sausage a long time ago."

And, the German court in AA's trial didn't claim AA was FS so the report, if they saw it, didn't carry very much weight.

Perhaps the translation that the Berlin police department had accept the report meant it had received the report. This doesn't mean everyone believed AA was FS. If they had and the case was closed in 1927, why did Hitler send his men, who probably had access to all the reports about AA, to find out if AA was GD Anastasia?

Again, this is just one of the stories about AA and FS that puzzles this old Bear.

And, no, I'm not trying to prove AA was GD Anatasia nor FS, I don't care where this journey takes me, I'm just enjoying what I'm learning along the way.

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

What would be intresting would be a book that tried to explan how, why and with whom AA kept the worlds attention for so long. That would probably sell quite well.

....

If I only had the time!

AGRBear

 

[AGRBear]

It's not so important to me that AA be AN, what is important to me, is that you and others get to know the real story. From what I have seen posted on this forum and others, I realize that very, very few people really know anything about AA.

I really don't know that much about AA accept for bites and pieces. I for one am grateful that Chat continues to post what he knows.

I believe some, like AWF, have their minds set and they appear to be on a course to prove that anyone who questions some of the facts as they preceives them that we're either openly or secretly supporting AA as GD Anastasia. And this just isn't the case.

It is my hope that posters who are reading all of this can go to the sources, read them and then make up their own mind. And this is why I disagree with AWF's dislike of sources:

Oh, dear. In that case we all might as well stop posting quotes and page numbers as references right now! It's useless to try to convince anyone that way. What good does it do to show book passages to people as evidence then? Just tell them to read the entire book, all the books, and then get back to you!

I don't think we need to convince anyone, let the facts be what they are and you decide.

AGRBear

 

[Michael HR]

I think there will always be two view points on this. Those who say AA was not AN and those who say she was. It's a discussion that may go on for years.

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

I think there will always be two view points on this. Those who say AA was not AN and those who say she was. It's a discussion that may go on for years.

The difference is though that one of those viewpoints is proven to be wrong now. It is no longer opinion when we have an answer to our questions. Those who do not accept the answers are free to do so but will always be wrong and do not deserve their position to be respected as any other.

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

I don't think we need to convince anyone, let the facts be what they are and you decide.

AGRBear

The facts are what they are and the facts are that Anna Anderson was a fraud and there is no reason to believe she was anyone other than Fransiska.