Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia

[ChatNoir]

Oh, I just cannot help myself now .....

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h47/hisvanoe/anastasiacollage2.jpg

 

[ChatNoir]

Well, I think we've just established that the "same face" claim isn't exactly conclusive.

What we are doing here, is not exactly scientific. To determine whether there is any real likeness between two faces, you will need a much, much larger amount of photos. And even then it is not an exact science. What gets me more than the face, is the identical ears and the bilateral congenital hallux valgus, a very rare affliction. No impostor gets that lucky!

 

[Elspeth]

What we are doing here, is not exactly scientific. To determine whether there is any real likeness between two faces, you will need a much, much larger amount of photos. And even then it is not an exact science. What gets me more than the face, is the identical ears and the bilateral congenital hallux valgus, a very rare affliction. No impostor gets that lucky!

I wasn't suggesting that the photos provided were conclusive one way or the other. I was pointing out that your inclusion of "face" in the list of things that were known to be identical was an overstatement since there are many people - such as the person who's challenging your statement now - who don't agree with it. Especially when we're getting into the realms of whether their faces would have been identical if it hadn't been for all these various injuries and traumas. Seems as though the bald claim that "their faces were identical" is an overstatement.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat, your boa pics are a perfect example of how AA and her supporters used convenient angles and props to hide parts of her face that looked least like AN. They're 'Glamour shots', the real person looks much different (and I don't even see AN in the glamour shots!) Your shadowy pics with the bitten lips certainly aren't scientific either, but in a clear picture, the differences in the features and bone structure are painfully obvious.

If you do want scientific examination, here's Geoffrey Oxlee's facial comparisons where he used a computer to conclude AA and FS were one in the same:

Geoffrey Oxlee is a British expert in imagery analysis and human identification. His work has been used in court cases where he has been called as an expert witness, and he was awarded for his work with British Military Intelligence.
Kalagate - The U.K.'s leading expert imagery interpretation bureau - Experts in Facial Mapping and Imagery Enhancement
In 1994, Oxlee used the picture of Franziska and a picture of Anna Anderson and fused them together using his proven successful computer techniques. Oxlee's experiment was shown in real time video on the PBS NOVA episode "Anastasia: Dead or Alive." His results, much more efficient and high tech than any facial comparisons done in the past, showed everything in both faces he was looking for matched exactly and that Franziska and Anderson were one in the same. Here are the pictures he used to compare:

And here is his experiment and its results:

http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/fuse1.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/fuse3.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/fuse5.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/fuse7.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/anastasiafranziska/fuse8.jpg

Oxlee explaining his conclusions about the perfect matches between the size of features, shape of face, and identical amount of space between the eyes, and other features. He was convinced Anderson was Schanzkowska.

He may have also used other pictures that were not shown on TV, I do not know for sure.


And if you want more scientific proof, well, there's always the DNA!

 

[ChatNoir]

Now the question is: Are these men related?

 

[Elspeth]

IF the samples came from AA.

To repeat - there are two samples, the intestinal sample from the hospital and the hair that (if I'm understanding correctly) was found in a book belonging to Anna Anderson. The intestinal sample was tested in two labs, the hair sample was tested in a third. They gave identical results, meaning that they were from the same person.

If the two samples were independently identified before testing as coming from Anna Anderson and the tests showed that they came from the same person, why this persistent doubt?

Oh, I know very, very well how disputed they are, and rightfully so. But when it comes to her face, we have the results of professors Eyckhart and Klenke who did a comparison of hundreds of photos, and came to the result that AA and AN's faces were identical. Then there is Otto Reche who had AA photographed from the same angles and in the same light as older photos of AN, and he also came out in her favour. And finally there was Mauritz Furtmayr who, with his PIK system made a "face print" of AA and AN, and they were identical. He also stated that their ears were identical on 17 points of tissue and curvatures. 12 were needed for identification in the German court at the time. There must be a limit to how lucky an impostor can be in this department.

And no experts have said that their faces are anything other than identical?

 

[ChatNoir]

Annie, as I have told you countless times before, a comparison between only two photos, taken from a slightly different angle, mean nothing.

 

[ChatNoir]

I wasn't suggesting that the photos provided were conclusive one way or the other. I was pointing out that your inclusion of "face" in the list of things that were known to be identical was an overstatement since there are many people - such as the person who's challenging your statement now - who don't agree with it. Especially when we're getting into the realms of whether their faces would have been identical if it hadn't been for all these various injuries and traumas. Seems as though the bald claim that "their faces were identical" is an overstatement.

Well, this is what the scientists say who did the tests.

 

[Russophile]

To repeat - there are two samples, the intestinal sample from the hospital and the hair that (if I'm understanding correctly) was found in a book belonging to Anna Anderson. The intestinal sample was tested in two labs, the hair sample was tested in a third. They gave identical results, meaning that they were from the same person.

If the two samples were independently identified before testing as coming from Anna Anderson and the tests showed that they came from the same person, why this persistent doubt?



And no experts have said that their faces are anything other than identical?

Isn't this fun Elspeth?
And you can see, each side is equally armored albeit in different ways. . .

 

[ChatNoir]

To repeat - there are two samples, the intestinal sample from the hospital and the hair that (if I'm understanding correctly) was found in a book belonging to Anna Anderson. The intestinal sample was tested in two labs, the hair sample was tested in a third. They gave identical results, meaning that they were from the same person.

If the two samples were independently identified before testing as coming from Anna Anderson and the tests showed that they came from the same person, why this persistent doubt?



And no experts have said that their faces are anything other than identical?

If there is no doubt, why has a legal decision not been made long time ago?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

And no experts have said that their faces are anything other than identical?

See my post on Oxlee. The most modern techniques used by this expert proved the 'identical' faces were those of AA and FS.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

If there is no doubt, why has a legal decision not been made long time ago?

Simple. Because no one has yet taken it to court. Few people realize that it was the Scweitzers, the daughter and son in law of Gleb Botkin, who hunted down the intestine sample and paid to have the DNA testing done. Naturally, they were disappointed with the results. Perhaps if they had gotten a more favorable conclusion they may have taken it to court to have her identity proven. Apparently, the DNA results are good enough for those on the 'other' side and they see no need to take it to court. You, Chat, are more than welcome to take this to court on your own time and expense. If you decide to do so, let us know the results.

 

[Elspeth]

Isn't this fun Elspeth?
And you can see, each side is equally armored albeit in different ways. . .

No, I don't think it's fun at all. I really dislike seeing scientists and their work being trashed by conspiracy theorists who don't seem to bat an eyelid before announcing that the work was wrong, the scientists didn't know what they were doing, they were all in some vast plot to hide The Truth and other such claims. I don't like it when creationists do it, or when climate change deniers do it, and I don't like seeing it here.

I don't care one way or the other whether Anna Anderson was Grand Duchess Anastasia, Franziska Schankowska, or someone completely different. I really do take issue with some of these casual accusations of incompetence and/or fraud by some world-leading experts in DNA testing.

 

[ChatNoir]

Simple. Because no one has yet taken it to court. Few people realize that it was the Scweitzers, the daughter and son in law of Gleb Botkin, who hunted down the intestine sample and paid to have the DNA testing done. Naturally, they were disappointed with the results. Perhaps if they had gotten a more favorable conclusion they may have taken it to court to have her identity proven. Apparently, the DNA results are good enough for those on the 'other' side and they see no need to take it to court. You, Chat, are more than welcome to take this to court on your own time and expense. If you decide to do so, let us know the results.

Every lawyer I have approached, has told me that the tainted chain of custody will make the DNA proof inadmissible. That's why I haven't tried yet.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat, go back a few posts and read the link I posted about the chain of custody on the Mitotyping Technology site. Also remember the samples were taken right in front of the Scweitzers, this is on the NOVA special. If you say they were swapped out, please tell us how this happened. If you can't prove it, the hypothetical accusations mean nothing.

Here it is again

Mitotyping Technologies, LLC | Company

Elspeth, it's not only the scientists, I have also seen it said by AA supporters online that the British royals, particularly Her Majesty herself, were the ones behind the switch, funding it financially and masterminding the entire plot. Who actually did all the dirty work has never been even speculated on, presumably because it never happened, so there is no answer.

The biggest question remains, why would anyone even bother? A reason someone mentioned once was that because George V had rejected the family for asylum, he felt guilty over their deaths and somehow the rejection of AA by members of the family, particularly Lord Mountbatten who fought her in court with his own money for years, added to this 'embarrassment'. Therefore, the House of Windsor had to make sure the world never found out that AA was AN! Even if this were true, would it be worth the money and risk involved? It's also an insult to the scientists that they were either too stupid to know they'd been swapped out, or 'paid off' by the Queen to go along with the trickery.

Now with the find of the last two sets of remains in Ekaterinburg, the Russians are also a part of some grand plot to commit fraud and lie to the world. What could possibly matter now to the British royals, or the Russian government, that would make such deception and elaborate schemes necessary, even if they were true? There really is no reason. There is no money, no political position to gain, nothing to prove. Really, if there had been a survivor, it would have been more to their advantage to capitalize on that story, if attention and tourism was the goal. There's nothing left now but putting an end to a long and tragic episode in history.

 

[Russophile]

< ed Warren: irrelevancies >
I just don't think people can for sure say that it's a done deal. Didn't they say it was a done deal in 1919? Then they found the bodies in the Koptkei (sic) forest then they found out Yurovsky and Ermakov lied (Radzinski's book) How much more information is stashed there in Russia that we have no knowledge of that exists given the history and the nature of the Soviet Union after the revolution?

 

[Anna was Franziska]

But everything they said turned out to be basically true- the family was murdered and left in the area they said they were. Two bodies were burned separately, and now that site has been found too. What did they lie about?

 

[ChatNoir]

Chat, go back a few posts and read the link I posted about the chain of custody on the Mitotyping Technology site. Also remember the samples were taken right in front of the Scweitzers, this is on the NOVA special. If you say they were swapped out, please tell us how this happened. If you can't prove it, the hypothetical accusations mean nothing.

Yes, the slices were cut from the sample right in front of everybody. But who can prove that the sample really came from AA? Do that, and I shall take it to court in person.

But everything they said turned out to be basically true- the family was murdered and left in the area they said they were. Two bodies were burned separately, and now that site has been found too. What did they lie about?

I don't think we can say that the site has been found as of yet. So far, all they have are some bones that, as far as I know, have not been tied to the IF by DNA.

 

[Elspeth]

Yes, the slices were cut from the sample right in front of everybody. But who can prove that the sample really came from AA? Do that, and I shall take it to court in person.

Take it to court for what reason?

If the sample didn't come from Anna Anderson, what is your explanation for why the DNA matched that of the hair sample which was found in a book she had owned, and which was analysed in a different laboratory?

 

[Menarue]

Every lawyer I have approached, has told me that the tainted chain of custody will make the DNA proof inadmissible. That's why I haven't tried yet.

A polite question Chat. Why are you so keen to prove that AA was Anastasia, did you know her? Are you related to her? I really can´t understand someone even consulting a lawyer about it. DNA cannot be denied, a likeness? That is nothing. There is a family that published an unwittingly hilarious book about their right to the British throne and even in the book called their ancestor (supposedly an illegitimate son of Queen Victoria) Prince M. What did they base their story on, they had very little to go on as the child had been abandoned without identification at a convent step, well they based their story on a likeness to Queen Victoria, it was quite noticeable too.
In case you are wondering why I called the book hilarious, it was because the English translation of it was done à la Babelfish.
A daughter of mine was always being approached by people who thought they knew her because of another girl at University who looked so much like her that both sets of parents met both girls to see for themselves. Absolutely not even the slightest relationship between the families.
I would like to add that this daughter is a research scientist, (DNA).

 

[Jo of Palatine]

There is no reasonable way it could have occured. What would they have swapped it with? Where would they get the same exact piece of intestine that was removed from AA, and how would it match the FS family?

So far I have not been able to find out who inititated the search for left-overs of Anna Anderson, who was financing the tests, who organized the transport of the parts to the labs, who selected the labs in the first place, who found the reference DNA from the Romanovs and the Schanzkowskis: who did all that?

As long as I don't have this information and are thus being able to evaluate it to exclude the motive and possibility of tampering I still say that for me that DNA-test is no proof.

Over here in Germany things happened in hospitals which made it to the public knowledge that give me reason not to trust information coming from hospitals too much: pranks have been played in order to joke on DNA-specialists before. Medical staff has a very hands-on approach when it comes to people and as long as nobody is directly hurt by such a prank a lot of folk in the medical profession is quite approachable for ideas that "normal" people would believe to be impossible to imagine. I've quite some doctors in my family, so had to get used to their special kind of humour.

And IIRC Peter Kurtz reported that he had a third sample which simply disappeared after he handed it over for testing....

So I would be very thankful if somebody could enlighten me to the answers of my questions: who initiated and financed the DNA-testings and how did they come about?

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Mitotyping Technologies, LLC | Company

From that site - to all who claim there are 100% and 99.9% results:

"When forensic cases arise where there is insufficient biological material for nuclear DNA typing, mitochondrial DNA analysis can provide valuable supplemental information."

We're talking mitochondrial DNA here, which obviously is only able to provide "supplemental" information, not 100% proof of something.

AFAIK, you can only proof relations via the same gender line, so as Anastasia was a female, you need to have a relative from the female line of her ancestry, no the DoE.

As for reasons why influential members of her family would not want to recognize her and bring other members of the family up to scratch in a denial-policy: I can think of so many valid reasons why in the 1920s no just disposed House would want to accept a "soiled" girl who had born a child in the time she was unaccounted for and of whom nobody knew if there weren't some new "in-laws" waiting in the background... In the 1920s the former rulers all hoped to be called byck to their thrones and I doubt they wanted to present the world a young relative who had been shown by the people's power that she was just a human being like the mob on the steet when stripped of her Imperial trappings.

Today of course we pity poor Anastasia but the ruling families were not know for their pity when it came to their power and the noble facade they wanted to upheld. I'm quite convinced that it was no coincidence that Anna Anderson always found supporters who cared for her because that is the old-fashioned way ruling and noble families took care of their "soiled goods" - send them away to somebody who cares for them for a small allowance. But a former ruler like Ernest of Hesse or a pretender like Kyrill Romanov would never ever have risked
a) any proof that one of the Tsar's family survived - there could be more of them somewhere.
b) to accept a survivor with a mostly unknown but definately "sexually involved" past and unknown state of mind because of her experiences.

 

[Menarue]

Yes, who financed all this testing? Was AA´s husband wealthy?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

It's quite sad people don't see the differences between AA and Anastasia. On the photos, Anna posted they clearly tell you that they are two different people who don't look alike period. DNA, solved and figured out most of this. Whoever doesn't see a difference needs to get eye glasses.The photographs never lie. It proved that 99% AA was NOT Anastasia. It also proved that AA was FS. AA's lips and eyes resemble Waldred and felix. Look at the photos! Anastasia's mouth, lips, face, headline, and nose don't resemble AA's at all.

 

[Cumberland]

Anastasia Evidence,

There are striking similarities between the two. While I don't believe she was Anastasia, I surely DO NOT buy the Franziska story.

Do you know that there is only ONE actual photo of Franziska in existence? Which was taken pre WW I.

According to Felix Schanzkowski, the actual brother of FS, his sister spoke German good/well and some Polish. She did not have hallux valgus, she had tiny feet, and she only vaguely resembled his sister from the side.

Also Uncle Ernie was out to destroy her, when he found out her answer to the question of when was the last time you saw your Uncle and her answer was: "Im bei kreige, un zu haus" (In the war at our house) bringing to light the spectre of the Grand Duke's possible secret visit during the war. You may want to get this in your fact book or consult Annie/AWF on this. The Hessian state and people were most generous with its popular ruling family. Ernie sold them the Neue Palais built by his parents, had a considerable fortune, and was given a generous settlement by the state, and kept his status within Hesse. Unfortunately he could not risk the public and the government of Hesse knowing of the trip, while their loved ones were fighting and dying, their Grand Duke was in the enemy camp, it might not set so well with the people, even if it wasn't true, and there is evidence that points to the trip and against it. Ernie couldn't risk the possible forfeiture of his estates, and monies, which was why he was behind the opposition, not because he didn't believe her. The man NEVER met AA.

Before her death in 1950 Irene stated "Yes, yes she is similar, but what does it mean if it is not she?" Even Irene's son recognized her. So this absolute one or the other argument you & Annie keep yammering on about is just not the base for any sound discussion regarding this case. It is NOT just about DNA, DNA may indiciate WHO she wasn't, but in this case regardless of Annie endless ravings, it doesn't prove who she was, and I just do not believe that Franziska Schanzkowska could have successfully pulled a Galatea like transformation as you do. I have always firmly believed that no one could have survived that horrid evening in Ekaterinburg in July, but she definitely wasn't Franziska.



Michael

 

[Warren]

We need to drop the comments about people needing glasses and we need to get past this "I can/can't see it so why can't/can you?" line of argument.
Members will see what they see, whether it be similarities or differences, and it is unlikely that any number of photographs will sway those who already hold a firm opinion on the matter.

ETA.. members intent on plugging another member's book(s) will have those references deleted in accordance with the parent company's Terms of Service rule regarding commercial solicitation.

Warren
Russian Forums moderator

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Yes, who financed all this testing? Was AA´s husband wealthy?

As I said in post #433, it was Richard and Marina Schweitzer, the daughter and son in law of Gleb Botkin, who was one of AA's strongest supporters. They were the ones who searched for and found the intestine sample, and they were the ones who funded the testing.

Much has been made of the hospital first saying they had no sample, then later finding it. The reason for this is that it was first searched under the name "Anna Anderson" but it was stored under her legal married name, "Anastasia Manahan". Once it was searched under that name, it was found.

The hair sample originally belonged to Kurth. At the time it was sent for testing, he agreed it was hers, but when the results came back negative, he then claimed it was not hers.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Also Uncle Ernie was out to destroy her, when he found out her answer to the question of when was the last time you saw your Uncle and her answer was: "Im bei kreige, un zu haus" (In the war at our house) bringing to light the spectre of the Grand Duke's possible secret visit during the war. You may want to get this in your fact book or consult Lori Stewart/Annie/AWF on this. The Hessian state and people were most generous with its popular ruling family. Ernie sold them the Neue Palais built by his parents, had a considerable fortune, and was given a generous settlement by the state, and kept his status within Hesse. Unfortunately he could not risk the public and the government of Hesse knowing of the trip, while their loved ones were fighting and dying, their Grand Duke was in the enemy camp, it might not set so well with the people, even if it wasn't true, and there is evidence that points to the trip and against it. Ernie couldn't risk the possible forfeiture of his estates, and monies, which was why he was behind the opposition, not because he didn't believe her. The man NEVER met AA.

Yes, Ernie NEVER met AA, but he did see many photos of AA, and he read her story. He didn't have to meet her to see if she was a fraud or not! He knew she was a imposter anyway. Remember when, AA made a trip about Ernie going to Russia in 1916. That wasn't proven. Ernest never was in Russia in 1916.

Before her death in 1950 Irene stated "Yes, yes she is similar, but what does it mean if it is not she?" Even Irene's son recognized her. So this absolute one or the other argument you & Annie/Lori Stewart keep yammering on about is just not the base for any sound discussion regarding this case. It is NOT just about DNA, DNA may indiciate WHO she wasn't, but in this case regardless of Annie/Lori Stewart's endless ravings, it doesn't prove who she was.

I saw immediately that she could not be one of my nieces. Even though I had not seen them for nine years, the fundamental facial characteristics could not have altered to that degree, in particular the position of the eyes, the ear, etc. .. At first sight one could perhaps detect a resemblance to Grand Duchess Tatiana
Irene said this! In Irene's opinion she thought her sight was similar to Tatiana. But, she knew it wasn't her niece anyway. Anastasia's appearance favored Alix! AA doesn't favor Alix period. There were more people who were against her story. Irene, Olga Alexandrovna, Sophie, Gibbes, Gilliard, and Felix Yussuopov.

Anastasia Evidence,

There are striking similarities between the two. While I don't believe she was Anastasia, I surely DO NOT buy the Franziska story.

Do you know that there is only ONE actual photo of Franziska in existence? Which was taken pre WW I.

According to Felix Schanzkowski, the actual brother of FS, his sister spoke German good/well and some Polish. She did not have hallux valgus, she had tiny feet, and she only vaguely resembled his sister from the side.

I don't notice a similarity between AA and Anastasia. Yes, I don't believe she was Anastasia either. Yes, I already know this photo of FS taken in 1915 or 1916. FS, did want to become an actress. FS was mentally ill herself. Just like, AA is.

 

[Menarue]

The hair sample originally belonged to Kurth. At the time it was sent for testing, he agreed it was hers, but when the results came back negative, he then claimed it was not hers.

........
Hmmmmmm.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Remember when, AA made a trip about Ernie going to Russia in 1916. That wasn't proven. Ernest never was in Russia in 1916.

That's right, the trip has never been proven. Also there was a book published in Germany in 1922 "In the Face of the Revolution" which alleged Ernie made the trip, so AA and/or her supporters could easily have gotten the idea from that when they made the accusation against him in 1925. It was certainly no 'bombshell only Anastasia could have known' as supporters like to say.

I saw immediately that she could not be one of my nieces...

Irene said this!

Yes she did, and she did meet her in person. She also noted that AA did not recognize her, and became irate when she found out she had been 'tricked' into meeting "Aunt Irene" (apparently because she wasn't warned first)