Anna Anderson's claim to be Grand Duchess Anastasia


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Status
Not open for further replies.
But Anna Anderson couldn´t speak French or Russian! That is my number one problem with her sorry the DNA tests of the bones is number one, the languages is definitely second to those.
Can anyone tell me the answer to Jo´s question? What language was Anna Anderson speaking when she first appeared?
 
Jo we are agreed.
There is one thing that perhaps you are overlooking. I agree with your mother about a servant learning how to behave etc etc although there is a saying here in Portugal that says more or less "As many miladies as on a maid´s day off". They pick up (or let us say they did as these things are back in the past) mannerisms from their employers.
There have been many people in the past who have passed themselves off as aristocrats (and some still do) but they are definitely not.
In my opinion Franzisca couldn´t be Anna Anderson and also IMHO Anna Anderson in no way can be the Grand Duchess Anastasia.

Yes, but then Franziska wasn't a ladies' maid or else employed in a upper-class household. She grew up in the countryside and came to wartime Berlin where the society was still organised as part of the empire. Then she experienced the social upheavals of the post-war years where the old structures crashed and worked in a factory and as a field worker picking asparagus. I don't see where she could have gotten any knowledge about life at court from, especially as most books were either not yet written/published or not available for common folk. My father after WWII helped organise the public library system in West-Germany and so I learned a lot about the way archives, publishing and libraries worked pre WWII and I personally simply can't imagine where Franziska or anyone else could have gotten the information from that Anna Anderson obviously had.

I mean, okay if there had been the forming of two parties - one pro-Anna, the other anti-Anna within the family with clear opponents and aims, then I could imagine there was somebody from inside behind it but so far it was part of the family against her and another part who were either indifferent or trying to do the right thing by her. There was eg no uncle who claimed her as his ward and tried to marry her off to his son in order to claim the leadership of the house of Romanov.
 
I am getting a bit lost as it has been so long since I have read books on this subject..
What happened to Franzisca? I kn ow that Anna Anderson married and her husband took up her colours.
My disbelief in either of these women is mainly based on the bodies of the Imperial family being found and the DNA tests carried out besides the language problems.
People don´t change that much in my opinion. I hadn´t seen a school friend for over 40 years and recognized her immediately and the first thing we did was talk about past experiences, the nicknames we had given teachers and the time I fell off my horse, all those little things that only we could know.
 
But not all of the bodies were found with the IF. The bodies of Anastasia (or Marie) and Alexei were missing from the mass grave. That has only fueled speculation that two of the children survived. So there was no DNA to test of Anastasia or her brother.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
But Anna Anderson couldn´t speak French or Russian! That is my number one problem with her sorry the DNA tests of the bones is number one, the languages is definitely second to those.
Can anyone tell me the answer to Jo´s question? What language was Anna Anderson speaking when she first appeared?

That language was GERMAN. People who had known the Romanovs who met her and denied her said it was strange that she would speak German and not Russian, English or French which the real Anastasia had known well, while German was studied very little by the real Anastasia and would have been the language of the four she knew by far the least. The stories of what she spoke and when are all based on hearsay. People who denied her said she didn't know the other languages until later taught, people who supported her said she did know them and those who denied her were lying. Who is right? The clincher for me is that Anderson never proved to publically or in court she could speak, read and write Russian or French. Her English up until the last of her days was rudimentary at best and heavily accented not at all the English of a girl raised in a family speaking English every day. Because there is no proof only the word of mouth of a few supporters I am inclined not to believe Anderson knew Russian or French as Anastasia would have.
 
That language was GERMAN. People who had known the Romanovs who met her and denied her said it was strange that she would speak German and not Russian, English or French which the real Anastasia had known well, while German was studied very little by the real Anastasia and would have been the language of the four she knew by far the least. The stories of what she spoke and when are all based on hearsay. People who denied her said she didn't know the other languages until later taught, people who supported her said she did know them and those who denied her were lying. Who is right? The clincher for me is that Anderson never proved to publically or in court she could speak, read and write Russian or French. Her English up until the last of her days was rudimentary at best and heavily accented not at all the English of a girl raised in a family speaking English every day. Because there is no proof only the word of mouth of a few supporters I am inclined not to believe Anderson knew Russian or French as Anastasia would have.

I have a question and I don't know the answer, but I'm sure someone does. Why wouldn't Anastasia have spoken German? Her mother was German, her grandmother was German. It would seem she would also know the language?
 
I am getting a bit lost as it has been so long since I have read books on this subject..
What happened to Franzisca?

Franziska was Anna Anderson, they are the same person. The DNA proved this with a 99.9% match. There are some people who still say it is false and the intestine samples were switched but this is only a strange theory with no factual basis. I have asked several times for any reasons why people believe there is a conspiracy and what are the reasons and evidence for this other than the fact they do not want to give up this mystery but I have recieved no answers as of yet. They only say there is something crooked going on and they want to keep checking for facts but the facts have been given and I am sorry they do not like or accept them.
 
I have a question and I don't know the answer, but I'm sure someone does. Why wouldn't Anastasia have spoken German? Her mother was German, her grandmother was German. It would seem she would also know the language?
No, because Alix was born in Germany. But, raised in England by Queen Victoria. Alix spoke English with a proper British accent. OTMA only talked to Alix in English. Haven't you seen the photos of Alix with Queen Alexandra and Kind Edward? Nicholas they spoke Russian. None of them knew German, because their German relatives like Kaiser Welhelm already knew English.
 
Last edited:
When the Berlin police questioned her on Yuesday, Feb. 17, 1920, she responded to them in German with a foreign accent. According to the Bonhoffer report, she spoke with a southern German accent, possibly Franconian in origin.
 
I have a question and I don't know the answer, but I'm sure someone does. Why wouldn't Anastasia have spoken German? Her mother was German, her grandmother was German. It would seem she would also know the language?

Because her Grandmother was English (Princess Alice of England) and her mother Alexandra along with her siblings were raised speaking English with English nannies and it remained their main language of communication both in speaking and writing all of their lives though they also knew German. After the death of their mother in 1878 the children spent a great deal of time in England with their Grandmother Queen Victoria and became rather Victorian English in manner and taste. Nicholas and Alexandra communicated to each other mainly in English. So it was English the Romanov children were most exposed to other than Russian. The royal children are well known to have been bilingual in English and Russian and also studied French for many years so it was another language they knew well. German was studied only very little later on and it was according to those who knew them never used by the family.
 
Last edited:
Franziska was Anna Anderson, they are the same person. The DNA proved this with a 99.9% match. There are some people who still say it is false and the intestine samples were switched but this is only a strange theory with no factual basis. I have asked several times for any reasons why people believe there is a conspiracy and what are the reasons and evidence for this other than the fact they do not want to give up this mystery but I have recieved no answers as of yet. They only say there is something crooked going on and they want to keep checking for facts but the facts have been given and I am sorry they do not like or accept them.

Could you please give examples of people saying the intestines samples were switched? I have never read anything serious to suggest this, even by those who believe Anna was AN.
Also, the DNA proved that Anna was a relative of Karl Maucher, it did not prove that she was FS.
I have read that the chain of custody on the tissue samples would prevent the DNA tests to be admitted as evidence in a court of law, but never that they were switched.
 
Because her Grandmother was English (Princess Alice of England) and her mother Alexandra along with her siblings were raised speaking English with English nannies and it remained their main language of communication both in speaking and writing all of their lives though they also knew German. After the death of their mother in 1878 the children spent a great deal of time in England with their Grandmother Queen Victoria and became rather Victorian English in manner and taste. Nicholas and Alexandra communicated to each other mainly in English. So it was English the Romanov children were most exposed to other than Russian. The royal children are well known to have been bilingual in English and Russian and also studied French for many years so it was another language they knew well. German was studied only very little later on and it was according to those who knew them never used by the family.

From Alexandra's diary:
... "today I helped Tatiana with a German lesson."
 
When the Berlin police questioned her on Yuesday, Feb. 17, 1920, she responded to them in German with a foreign accent. According to the Bonhoffer report, she spoke with a southern German accent, possibly Franconian in origin.
She did speak in German. She's been in Germany for a couple of years. But, her nationality was Polish. She was born in Poland as FS.She's from Pamerania.
 
From Alexandra's diary:
... "today I helped Tatiana with a German lesson."
Well, as I said before while they were in Ekateringburg Alix did teach Olga and Tatiana only German. It was VERY little, though. Maria, Anastasia and Alexei never learned German. They studied bible lessons. I've also read Alix's dairy from exile.
 
Last edited:
She did speak in German. She's been in Germany for a couple of years. But, her nationality was Polish. She was born in Poland as FS.She's from Pamerania.

I am missing your point. No one is disputing that she spoke German when questioned by the Berlin police.
 
To help someone with a German lesson doesn´t mean she could speak German fluently, it could mean that she had a little more German than her sister. I have had German lessons and could help someone with elementary German lessons but getting me to speak fluently would be a problem with a capital "P".
The Grand duchesses would speak English with their parents, French with members of the Court and Russian with the servants. I am sure they had lessons in other languages too from tutors. I have read Princess Marie Louise´s autobiography where she mentions the Empress, who was her cousin, and she was considered by the family to be an English Princess because of her mother.
 
A little clarification of AA's languages:
When she was rescued on February 17th, 1920, she would speak a "hopelessly muddled German with a typical Russian accent". The Berlin police nick-named her "Die unbekannte Russin". (The unknown Russian woman.) Later, at Dalldorf, she would speak Russian with some of the nurses there, also noted in the protocols of the asylum. Thea Malinovsky tried to speak to her in Polish, but got no reaction at all. Later, at Inspector Grünberg's house, she apparently spoke more English than German, according to the Inspector's nephew, Conrad Wahl. She would also speak Russian or English in her sleep or while sedated for an operation, but could not remember it when she came to. It was clear that she understood every Russian word said to her, but she would always answer in German. When Gleb Botkin visited in 1927, she would on occasion break out in Russian, but when made aware of it, she denied it and said she had been speaking German the whole time. By the time she got to New York, she spoke English and nothing else. Xenia said her English was good, although her grammar was a little rusty.
In 1938, during a period when she really felt happy and was at ease with herself, she used Russian freely in conversations with Dr. Rudnev and Albert Coyle, an associate of Edward Fallows. When the Nazis started snooping around and demanded another confrontation with the Schanzkowskis, she shut herself in and refused to speak Russian anymore.
Dominique Aucleres stated that she once spoke in French to AA, and the latter answered in French, "with a beautiful accent." When in Paris with Agnes Gallagher, she ordered breakfast from the French waiter, and as Gallagher said: "I don't know if she really spoke French, but we got exactly what we wanted for breakfast."
And in spite of what Anastasia Evidence says: The Grand Duchesses were taught German, but never mastered it. In the diaries of the Tsarina, one can see one day that she "helped Tatiana with a German lesson."
 
I am missing your point. No one is disputing that she spoke German when questioned by the Berlin police.

Sorry, Jo asked what language she spoke when she was discovered and I echoed that question - the answer it seems is German whether it was fluent, heavily accented or grammatically incorrect is unknown but the point is that she used the excuse that she didn´t WANT to speak Russian or French or the languages she was brought up in. To me this excuse is very weak, like an escaped prisoner during a war pretending to be deaf mute because he couldn´t speak the language of the country he was crossing.
 
Could you please give examples of people saying the intestines samples were switched? I have never read anything serious to suggest this, even by those who believe Anna was AN.
Also, the DNA proved that Anna was a relative of Karl Maucher, it did not prove that she was FS.
I have read that the chain of custody on the tissue samples would prevent the DNA tests to be admitted as evidence in a court of law, but never that they were switched.

There are people including the poster here Chat Noir who say that there is no proof that the intestines came from Anderson. If they were not hers whose were they and how did they come to be switched? I add to this the people saying that there is a coverup for political reasons and it's not hard to see that people believe that the intestines were not Anderson's and switched for some special purpose to fool people into believing Anderson was not Anastasia. This is the impression I get from the posts of those who question the identity. If this is not what they believe I would like to hear them say why they do not believe that the intestine sample was Anderson's and what their reasons are for believing this. Lexi I am not talking about you but others.
 
There are people including the poster here Chat Noir who say that there is no proof that the intestines came from Anderson. If they were not hers whose were they and how did they come to be switched? I add to this the people saying that there is a coverup for political reasons and it's not hard to see that people believe that the intestines were not Anderson's and switched for some special purpose to fool people into believing Anderson was not Anastasia. This is the impression I get from the posts of those who question the identity. If this is not what they believe I would like to hear them say why they do not believe that the intestine sample was Anderson's and what their reasons are for believing this. Lexi I am not talking about you but others.

I think what Chat has questioned is the chain of custody. He would have to answer that for himself, though. The questions come because when the hospital was first asked for the samples, they said they didn't have them. Then later, they had them. That calls into question the chain of custody.
 
From Alexandra's diary:
... "today I helped Tatiana with a German lesson."

From my previous post:
German was studied only very little later on and it was according to those who knew them never used by the family.
No one is saying they never studied German at all only that it was studied very little much later and it was never used by the family. The languages used were Russian and English and the children were also capable in French but German was a language they knew very little so it's not likely it would become the language of choice for one of the children a year or two later and she would forget all the rest.
 
I think what Chat has questioned is the chain of custody. He would have to answer that for himself, though. The questions come because when the hospital was first asked for the samples, they said they didn't have them. Then later, they had them. That calls into question the chain of custody.

Then this means he believes the intestines may not be Anderson's therefore he believes they belonged to somebody else which means they must have been exchanged. If he questions the chain of custody then he is questioning that the intestines tested were those of Anderson so this means he believes they are switched.
 
I remember reading that Alex didn't stop speaking German until after the outbreak of WWI. I believe it was after that, she stopped speaking it at all.
 
She had a very short time to stop doing something then poor woman.
 
Then this means he believes the intestines may not be Anderson's therefore he believes they belonged to somebody else which means they must have been exchanged. If he questions the chain of custody then he is questioning that the intestines tested were those of Anderson so this means he believes they are switched.

I am not comfortable speaking for Chat.
They way I interpreted it was that because of the questions surrounding the chain of custody the samples or results of tests from those samples would be inadmissible in a court of law.
 
Lexi got it right. Because of the questionable chain of custody of the samples from where the DNA came, the DNA results would not be allowed as evidence in court. That's why this case is still open and creating so much interest from both parties.
Now, back to the language. If you were on the run from the Bolsheviks, young and naive and without anybody to cling to in this whole, wide world. What would you do when you were picked up by the German police? I think you would try to pretend that you were German in order to "blend in" and not be discovered as being Russian and risk being sent back to Russia for execution.
 
I am not comfortable speaking for Chat.
They way I interpreted it was that because of the questions surrounding the chain of custody the samples or results of tests from those samples would be inadmissible in a court of law.

But weren't the samples labeled carefully as being Anderson's? This is written in Robert K. Massie's book. We have two separate backups. In 1979 when Dr. Shrum did surgery on Mrs. Manahan, we took slides of the tissue, in addition to preserving in paraffin the larger blocks of the excised tissue. Taking slides when doing surgery is routine, you take it, you look at it, and say, there is cancer, or it's not cancer, or it's an infection or whatever. We preserve these slides in one place and the paraffin wax in a totally different place. "Furthermore, when we moved the tissue from storage back to the hospital in early 1993, Dr, Thomas Dudley, the assistant pathologist, cut some new slides from one of the blocks. We compared these new slides cut in 1993 with those slides cut in 1979 and they were identical. If someone had swapped them in storage during the last couple of years, they would not have matched. And the chance that anybody was able to get to both locations and switch both slides without access to specimen numbers is impossible." It seems to me that there is sufficient evidence that the intestines were hers and if somebody thinks they were not they need to produce proof of this or they don't have a case at all against the hospital and scientists. Who switched them, what did they switch them with, how and when did this happen and what was the reason? Only saying that you don't believe the intestines to be hers is not enough we need answers.
 
Franziska was Anna Anderson, they are the same person. The DNA proved this with a 99.9% match. .
Looking up the thread about establishing the identity of Anna Anderson you'll see that this is not true. Please, check at least the information agreed upon on these forums before making claims that are not based on facts. it is quite annoying to run around in circles because the same false claims appear again and again. If the case was so properly resolved, no one in their right mind would still argue about it.

She did speak in German. She's been in Germany for a couple of years. But, her nationality was Polish. She was born in Poland as FS.She's from Pamerania.
Maybe you should invest a bit of your time in researching German and Polish history. Pomerania (Pommern) has been German territory since the Middle Ages and was till the end of WWII. The father of my father came from there and he had a "Polish" name but still the family can trace their German roots back over centuries. So this is something you obviously know nothing about and even though people tried to correct you, you don't listen and don't get additional information. This is not how discussions should be, IMHO.

Information about Pomerania's history: History of Pomerania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"19th century Pomerania province was virtually entirely German and Germanized".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom