2009 Identification of the remains found in July 2007

[J Kendrick]

I assumed these two links would have some relevance to the thread topic. Unfortunately not.

This is the second paragraph from no 1:

Discrediting image of Nicholas II is still a part of propagandistic war led against Russia by some forces in the West. That's why the West with the assistance of some homebred playwrights go on replicating tons of slanderous trash pretending to be a new "biography" of Nicholas II".

No 2 is headed "Killers of last Russian Tsar must be named - senior Russian priest"

I can't see any connection whatsoever between the current efforts to identify human remains and "discrediting the image of Nicholas II" or "Killers must be named".
.

First, we have a known great-grandson of one of the three other men that were murdered alongside Nicholas who is now urging the Russian people... for the good of their own country... to rethink their views of the last Tsar...

and then... on top of that...

Here we now also have the Russian Orthodox Church... actually calling for an inquiry that would finally determine, once and for all, who it really was that had given the orders to kill the Tsar and his family....*and*... also calling for a proper legal qualification and political assessment of the murders.

Does nobody yet realize how huge a news story this really is?

The Orthodox Church?... After ninety long years?.... Now making the very first official call ever for a proper inquiry that would finally determine who actually gave the order to pull the trigger?

... and nobody sees anything political in that?... and do they not realize that none of this would now be happening at all... if it wasn't for the fact that this latest DNA investigation has single-handedly managed to bring these topics of both Nicholas II's history as a Tsar and of the brutality of his murder into the Russian headlines again?

And in response to OlgaNikolaievna:

Does anyone really believe if there weren't real evidence that such reputable sources would have relayed it? CBS, CNN, and the BBC are hardly the National Enquirer!

The Networks that you have named here did not have their own reporters at the event in question. They were only reporting what they had been told second-hand by the Russian news services who were only passing on the still unconfirmed claims of Ekaterinburg Governor Edvard Rossel.... and Mr. Rossel was only claiming to reporters that he had been told by somebody else who, in turn, had been told by somebody else, which means... in fact... that it is... in reality... nothing more than hearsay.

The very next day after Gov. Rossel's claims had hit the headlines, the director of SEARCH (Scientific Expedition to Account for the Romanov Children) Peter Sarandinaki had made the deliberate point of issuing a news release that says very clearly that Gov. Edvard Rossel's statements to the media were only Mr. Rossel's personal "belief"... and that they cannot be confirmed.

But, of course, nobody ever bothered to report that part of the story.

Unfortunately in his excitement, the Russian official announced it to the press before the scientists were ready with their peer reviewed results, leading to the very type of talk they had hoped to prevent. That is all there is to it.

You do, of course, realize that the particular "Russian official" of which you speak here is the very same Russian gentleman who had been predicting to all who would listen back in 1997 that the bones of Nicholas II were to be given their formal burial in Ekaterinburg....

... and we all know how that ended...

JK

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

And in response to OlgaNikolaievna:



The Networks that you have named here did not have their own reporters at the event in question. They were only reporting what they had been told second-hand by the Russian news services who were only passing on the still unconfirmed claims of Ekaterinburg Governor Edvard Rossel.... and Mr. Rossel was only claiming to reporters that he had been told by somebody else who, in turn, had been told by somebody else, which means... in fact... that it is... in reality... nothing more than hearsay.

The very next day after Gov. Rossels' claims had hit the headlines, the director of SEARCH (Scientific Expedition to Account for the Romanov Children) Peter Sarandinaki had made the deliberate point of issuing a news release that says very clearly that Gov. Edvard Rossel's statements to the media were only Mr. Rossel's personal "belief"... and that they cannot be confirmed.

But, of course, nobody ever bothered to report that part of the story.

Actually what the SEARCH foundation said was nothing of the kind, but exactly what I said, that they were going to wait until all the labs were finished before they announced any results. Press Release This is in no way a denial or a statement that the Russian official was 'wrong' or it was only his 'opinion.' He had indeed been told the results of the first two labs and they were indeed that the remains were those of the royal children however as was said before the scientists want to wait until everything is wrapped up before making an official statement. This all still seems to be pointing in the direction that some of you think the Russians are intentionally lying and faking for some ulterior motive. I do not believe that, but luckily we have labs from other places in the world working on it too since some of you will refuse to believe the Russians.

 

[Warren]

First, we have a known great-grandson of one of the three other men that were murdered alongside Nicholas who is now urging the Russian people... for the good of their own country... to rethink their views of the last Tsar...

What on earth has "urging the Russian people...to rethink their views of the last Tsar" got to do with the current efforts by various scientists to identify skeletal remains?

 

[J Kendrick]

What on earth has "urging the Russian people...to rethink their views of the last Tsar" got to do with the current efforts by various scientists to identify skeletal remains?

Simple. The one would not now exist without the other.

If no one had found any bone fragments last summer... if no one was now testing any skeletal remains that are suspected of belonging to any of the missing Romanovs... then no one would now be discussing such things.

JK

 

[Warren]

They may well be discussing a "rethinking" of their views of the Tsar in Russia, but this thread is about "New Information on Two Pits Found July 2007".

 

[Warren]

In the absence of further news concerning the progress of the scientific investigation/analysis of the remains found in July 2007, the thread has veered off into areas which have no relevance to the topic.

Rather than be sidetracked into irrelevant discussions of Russian attitudes towards Tsar Nicholas, or Orthodox Church calls for an enquiry into who gave the orders to kill the Imperial Family, or a repetition of the crimes of the Soviet regime, as from now anything not strictly pertaining to the thread topic will be deleted.

If members wish to discuss 'Russian attitudes to Nicholas II' or 'The position of the Church on the Imperial Family' (for example), please feel free to start threads on those topics in the mainstream Russian forum. The 'Questions of Identity' subforum is not the place for them.

Until there is something concrete to report on the current investigation, members are encouraged to exercise patience.
Further conjectures presented as "fact", speculations and wild conspiracy theories will be deleted.

If members require clarification of the above, please do so by PM to any of the site Administrators: Avalon, Elspeth, Empress, Mandy, Marengo, Norwegianne or myself.

Warren
for the Administrators

 

[J Kendrick]

While today's news report from Interfax (June 2, 2008) does now tell us that the testing is likely to be finished by the end of this month, it still does not give us any hint at all as to when those final results will actually be made public.

See:
Interfax-Religion

JK

From Interfax:
02 June 2008, 15:38
Russian, foreign experts to finally assess study of "royal remains"

Yekaterinburg, June 2, Interfax - The study of remains that could prove to be those of Alexey and Maria, the children of the last Russian tsar Nicholas II, is to be finished in late June, said Nikolay Nevolin, the head of the Sverdlovsk regional forensic medical bureau.

"I think the examination of the bones will be completed in late June and the results obtained will be handed to renowned experts in Russia and abroad, who did not participate in the laboratory analyses," Nevolin told Interfax on Monday.

These experts will state their opinion on the laboratory tests made, he said............

 

[lexi4]

Who are the experts that will be analyzing the case, do you know John? Is Peter Gill involved, or will he be?

 

[J Kendrick]

The actual reason is what it is, and if they haven't chosen to divulge the reasons then we don't know what they are. Your assertion that there are only two possible reasons doesn't necessarily make it so. Their reason might be one of your two, or it might be something else that none of us have thought of. We don't know.

Three weeks on... We certainly do know now what the reason is for their now having turned to a re-examination of the original Ekaterinburg remains.

The answer has been made clear with the Interfax news report of Wednesday, June 18th:

"An investigation that involves spotting areas in DNA that are responsible for the development of hemophilia has not been finished yet," Nikolay Nevolin, head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Bureau of Forensic Medicine, told Interfax. "There will most likely be more investigations," he said."

...and in answer to Lexi's question...

According to Peter Sarandinaki of SEARCH, Peter Gill is to be called in at the end of the process to certify the results when the numerous labs involved have finally completed their tests.

JK

 

[BorisRom]

V.Markin told about the tests of LAST YEAR

Interfax today:

Yekaterinburg remains are those of Tsar Nicholas II’s two children – Russian Prosecutor’s Office Investigative Committee

Moscow, June 24, Interfax - The tests carried out on the remains found near Yekaterinburg last year have been confirmed as those of the two members of the tsar's family executed by Bolsheviks in 1918 - Crown Prince Alexey and Grand Princess Maria.
A number of criminal medical and forensic tests have confirmed that the bodies of a boy aged between 12 and 14 and a young woman aged between 17 and 19 were burnt, spokesman for the Russian Prosecutor's Office Investigative Committee Vladimir Markin told Interfax on Tuesday.
"A historical examination is being led by Director of the Russian State Archive, doctor of historical sciences Sergey Mironenko as part of this criminal investigation. Among the experts are leading historians and archivists. Test results confirm the theory suggesting that these are the remains of the members of the tsar's family," Markin said.
The identification studies included the genetic tests carried out by experts from the Massachusetts University (U.S.), the U.S. Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory and the Institute for Forensic Medicine in Innsbruck, Austria.
"All researchers received the DNA of the male and female genes. Tests were carried out on the mitochondrial and nuclear DNA. The test results are being assessed by the investigators and will be unveiled in the second half of July this year," Markin said.
The investigation began after a team of Ural historians found a second grave with bone fragments of two people 70 kilometers from where other members of the Tsar Nicholas II's family were buried (the grave was uncovered in 1991), he said. The newly found remains were believed to be those of the emperor's son Alexey and daughter Maria who were shot dead in the Ipatyevs house in Yekaterinburg in the early hours of July 17, 1918.
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4834
*********************************************************
My comment:
Please, pay attention to words «The tests carried out on the remains found near Yekaterinburg LAST YEAR have been confirmed as those». Thus, V.Markin in any way did not make comments on recent interview of N.Nevolin.
About tests of THIS YEAR he said that it “ will be unveiled in the second half of July this year”

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Thank you Boris I hope this will put end to all speculation on claimants.

 

[Menarue]

We can only hope Olga, but don´t hold your breath......

 

[BorisRom]

I think, as “ the test results will be unveiled in the second half of July this year ” (the decision to publish it not up to 90-th anniversary of execution of Imperial Family is accepted, but after this anniversary) - it means, that the tests results will be recognized as important, but insufficient for identification of «new remains» as the remains of imperial children (thus, in second half of July it will be declared, that the further searches and researches are required).

So, N.Nevolin's recent interview has not been published in the English version of Interfax and it has not been shown on the main Russian telechannels. V.Markin's today's interview is published in the English version of Interfax and shown on the main Russian telechannel at the prime time…

 

[J Kendrick]

It seems that someone who is involved in heading up the investigation is now trying to have it both ways.

First Nikolai Nevolin in Ekaterinburg says that they do not have enough for two... and now this Vladimir Markin in Moscow says just seven days later that they do have enough for two...

So which is it? If Nevolin is right, then it explains the investigators' need to return to Koptyaki to continue their search for more remains again this summer. If Markin is right, then the investigation is over and there is no need at all to return to Koptyaki to search for more remains.

I'm inclined to agree, Boris... as I have also suspected for some time now.. that it depends on the timing of when the results are going to be published in relation to the 90th Anniversary of the murders.

Why do we now have two different news reports from two different sources in the space of just a week that apparently contradict each other? One report comes from Ekaterinburg and the other report comes from Moscow. Is there a lack of communication here between Ekaterinburg and Moscow? Is there now some sort of disagreement between Ekaterinburg and Moscow about the meaning of the test results?

...and which of these two spokesmen is actually closer to the truth?

Nevolin or Markin?

JK

 

[Anna was Franziska]

ITAR-TASS

This news report proves that there were two bodies, they were male and female, and they were the biological children of Nicholas and Alexandra (both mtDNA and nuclear testing was done) The names of the scientists and labs are mentioned. They also make clear that these are not other bodies from the Stalin purges or recent murder victims, but the royal children. What else do we need? (the final science reports are coming in a month)

 

[J Kendrick]

The Itar-Tass version of today's news story reads like it's been quoted word for word from a press release.

So if it is now over, as this latest news story suggests, then why are they even bothering to go back again for even more searching later this summer? If they do now have the proof they need, then why would they not now leave whatever human remains may still be left buried in Koptyaki alone out of respect?

And why are they still writing their news reports like this: "A number of tests have confirmed that human remains found near Yekaterinburg last July might belong to Alexei and Maria..." ?

JK

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Yes, I think that there was two bodies found. They have confimed that the remains are of Alexei and his sister this May. I think the remains were of Alexei and Anastasia. I agree Olga, I hope this puts a end to the speculations and survivor theories.

 

[Warren]

Let's base any confirmations on the report when it is released, depending on its findings. Until then we are arguing about news releases which are not a reliable substitute.
Patience! All will soon be revealed, one way or another.

 

[Menarue]

I sincerely hope you are right Warren. All may be revealed but will the results be accepted? That is another story.

 

[bbb]

Bones said those of missing Romanovs - UPI.com

*quote from article

*a spokesman for the committee investigating the remains discovered in 2007 near Yekaterinburg, said the bones are those of a boy age 12 to 14 and a young woman in her late teens,

*both DNA testing and historical and archaeological analysis made the identification of the bones as Alexei, the 13-year-old son of Czar Nicholas II, and Grand Duchess Maria,

*
The committee expects to publish definitive results in July.

 

[ChatNoir]

Well as we know from Russia that the last two bodies have been found, one son and one daughter, and assuming that there is a DNA match via A.F.'s DNA this bring s this story of AA as AN to an end, thankfully.

From Interfax yesterday:

House of Romanov rejects authenticity of recently found remains


Moscow, July 11, Interfax - The House of Romanov does not recognize the remains recently found near Yekaterinburg as those of the children of Emperor Nicholas II of Russia - Crown Prince Alexey and Grand Princess Maria.

"We do not have sufficient reasons to recognize these remains, just as the remains found in the late 1980s and buried in the Peter and Paul Cathedral in 1998, as those of the members of the emperor's family," Alexander Zakatov, the head of the Russian Imperial House's chancellery, told a news conference at Interfax on Friday.

Read the entire article here.

AA was a clever liar in my view helped by others, Dr. Botkin's son springs to mind at this point, for what ever their personal reasons were.

And Gleb Botkin did not meet her until May 1927. AA told all about her experiences to others from 1920 on.

 

[Michael HR]

AA and AN

Well I suppose we should all wait for the results to be confirmed. If they state that there is a match then that is it for AA once and for all, although most people came to that conclusion some time ago.

The fact that the ROC and Priness Maria Romonova choose not to accept the DNA against the clear evidence is a matter for them to explain to the public, although I am not so sure what Maria has to say matters as Prince Nicholas Romonov, seen as head of the family, seems to agree that the DNA match is correct. Maria is out on her own and is to closely linked ot the Church to say anything against the Church view in public, perhaps.

How AA did what she did, when she did it and with whom we shall probably never know as every one involved is dead and gone. If the DNA is positive it does not matter a jot what she said as she would be a fraud, those who supported her would be as a result be a fraud just as those who made money out of selling books and trying to convince the world that AA was AN would be also a fraud on the public but to carry it on after DNA is dishonest.

It seems to me that the only persons who might have a view and maintain that view that AA was AN were those who had publised books over the years and wish to protect their income and reputation at the expense of the truth or the intelligence of the Russian people and others abroad.

Aa was clever so she duped many people. If you are one of them so be it but move on and accept the situation today that the Imperial Family died together as one family in the face of terror.

 

[Michael HR]

I hope to God the findings say that the remians are those of a male and a female with a positive DNA match to the Imperial family and this will bring an end to the views of some who argue that one or more surived the terrible night.

In my view shortly the entire Imperial Family will lay at rest together and the claimants can give up their hopes and claims.

 

[BorisRom]

Wow!

InterFax today:
"DNA analysis confirms Yekaterinburg remains are young Romanovs -
Investigative Committee (updated)

Moscow, July 16, Interfax - The results of a DNA analysis have
confirmed the hypothesis that remains found near Yekaterinburg a year
ago are those of Prince Alexey and Grand Duchess Maria Nikolayevna,
the Investigative Committee within the Russian prosecution system said
in an official statement on Wednesday.
"The scientific results based on a DNA analysis of three genetic
systems correlate with the hypothesis that remains of Grand Duchess
Maria and Crown Prince Alexey were found in the 'second' burial site,"
it said.
Nevertheless, Russian scientists will continue their work to complete
the analysis and make a final conclusion on the identification of the
remains, it said.

Read the entire article here.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Russia confirms remains are last tsar's children - Yahoo! News

ITAR-TASS

RIA Novosti - Russia - Urals remains belong to last tsar's children - DNA test

 

[Menarue]

At the time of the discovery did they explain how/or why the remains were taken such a distance? Were they taken post mortem? I am afraid I missed any information about this. Now it is just curiosity as the DNA has been confirmed and that should be enough for anyone

 

[BorisRom]

Don't hurry

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=4948

“Confirming authenticity of Romanov remains should not be hurried - Russian Church

Moscow, July 16, Interfax - Confirming the authenticity of remains seemingly of the children of Emperor Nicholas II of Russia - Crown Prince Alexey and Grand Princess Maria, which were found last year near Yekaterinburg, should not be hurried, the Russian Orthodox Church said.
"The official position of the Church has yet to be announced. I think that those who want to learn it [whether the remains are those of the Royal children] should be patient;

Read the entire article here.

 

[Anna was Franziska]

Romanov Family Association accepts remains

Unlike the "House of Romanov" (Maria V.) the Romanov Family Association, which includes most of the rest of the Romanov descendants, has delcared they do not doubt the remains found last year, always believed they were the missing children, and believes the new testing proves even more strongly that the bones found in 1991 were authentic.

Interfax: Romanov Family does not doubt Yekaterinburg remains are royal

9:11 GMT, Jul 16, 2008 Latest Headlines...

Romanov Family does not doubt Yekaterinburg remains are royal

ST.PETERSBURG. July 16 (Interfax-) - The Romanov Family has never
doubted that the remains found near Yekaterinburg a year ago were those
of Crown Prince Alexei and Grand Princess Maria Nikolayevna, but deem it
very important that this has been proved now based on DNA tests.
"It is very important that these results are now official and that
it is 100% so. Now let those who have misgivings, say why. A larger part
of my family, nearly all members, have been hoping all this time that it
will be so. It was clear for us it was so," Prince Dmitry Romanov, Tsar
Nicholas I's great, great grandson, said on Ekho Moskvy in St.
Petersburg on Wednesday.

Read the entire article here.

 

[OlgaNikolaievna]

This is very exciting news! Nice to see most of the Romanov family believe the children really have been found. It is the proven truth. We should be glad to know we now have closure and have respect for their deaths on this the 90 year anniversary of the tragedy.

 

[Picmajik]

90 years on, Russia remembers slain royals - CNN.com

A posting on CNN today updating they confirmed the two most recently found bodies are Alexei and Marie. In either case, wouldn't this confirm that all the children are dead whether they found Marie or Anastasia first?
This is of course, assuming that the DNA tests are correct, the fragments weren't planted there to throw off investigators (for all you conspiracy theorists). I don't think everyone will be convinced either way that these are all of the family now confirmed dead--too much time and non-preservation of the "crime scene" as it were. 90 years and counting. I think this is still going to be debated 90 years from now.