New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[Duke of Marmalade]

And what makes you think that Margrethe didn't deal with this face to face?
How do you know that Joachim, Marie and others from their family are telling 100% absolute truth?

Remember Harry and Meghan's Oprah interview?
Majority of their claims turned out not to be correct at all.

So how do you know that Joachim and his family aren't describing the events in such a way that suits them best?
After all, instead of dealing with it inside the family, first thing they do is run out and moan to the press.
They obviously want to convice the public that their version of truth is the actual and only version and make the entire country turn their back on the Queen.
This strategy worked quite well with the Sussexes knowing that public soap operas aren't the way the monarchs communicate.

Remember the late prince Henrik and his hurt feeling for not being named king. The Queen never commented on that in public.
I believe this is the reason behind Joachim's actions - he is certain the Queen won't argue with him in public via media.
So he can tell to the public what ever he wants.

Exactly - for me the most likely truth is that recollections may have varied, especially with courtiers acting inbetween. The bottom line is that Joachim and especially Alexandra did not like the decision one bit and didn't hesitate to get their 'truth' out there, knowing very well that the RF will not engage in public truth finding.
Very curious to find out if there will be any further 'truth bombs' from various family members or if anybody has learnt their lesson by now.

 

[Alison H]

As to whether the children have lost much, I would say no. There’s a difference between public status and private social prestige. To use an example from another RF, does anyone think Peter and Zara Philips have lived less privileged lives than Beatrice and Eugenie of York, in any way that really matters? Or that Countess Athena will miss out on opportunities that Princess Athena would have had with regard to education, career opportunities, social connections, etc? Especially in a small country like Denmark, Joachim’s children will remain part of the elite circles they’ve known since birth, and it’s not like everyone is going to suddenly forget they’re the Queen’s grandchildren and future King’s nephews and niece.

I don't think it's going to have much effect on their day-to-day lives. But having a title taken away from you smacks of punishment, as if you've done something wrong, and must be very distressing when you haven't. If it can be done with agreement, as it was in Sweden, that's OK, but being stripped of your titles against your will must be very hurtful. It's not the change in titles, it's the way it's been handled - and the fact that it's now big news, not only in Denmark but elsewhere too, which is making everything more difficult.

When Henrik got upset a few years ago, the press here were busily saying that it was like a real life Hamlet, with a prince of Denmark storming off: that was also international news. You'd think that the upset over that would have been a warning to handle this carefully, but unfortunately it seems not.

 

[Princess Thyra]

Try to see it more practically: these grandchildren of Queen Margrethe, these nephews and nieces of future King Frederik, these cousins and cousines of future King Christian will never have any role in the Royal House of Denmark

Therefore it was seen as desirable not to have persons walking around - for probably 80 more years to go- with a title of said Royal House.

As the Romans already said it two Centuries ago - Imperare est Inspicere (in futurum), meaning: Governing is Foreseeing. Back then, when Prince Joachim's eldest child was born, his brother Crown Prince Frederik was still unmarried.

Now the Crown Prince has plenty of children, the situation has changed, will change again when he his King, will change once again when his son is King. The four children of Prince Joachim will move to the outmost periphery of the monarchy until in 50 years time, in 2072, no one knows why they are Princes and Princesses of Denmark.

By every rationale this is a wise decision and with the hereditary title Greve (Komtesse) de Monpezat they belong to the aristocracy for possibly many generations to go.

I think the most practical thing is to view this whole mess as what it is or does: It points out one of the biggest issues with "modern" monarchy - the position of the spare and what to do with one when no longer needed. It's pretty callous to keep someone around and titled (and kids with titles) as long as they might be needed, and then say later: "Bye-bye! You and your kiddos are no longer needed." We see this dilemma to some extent in many royal families, and I am sure this happened historically, but without the heavy pressure to slim down the monarchies that exists today. It makes the system look a bit ridiculous.

 

[tommy100]

Well how do we know Margrethe isn't raving mad and being controlled by evil witch Mary? We can all speculate and speculate but in the meantime can deal with the "facts" presented, of course always open to the possibility they are not correct.

Why do I believe the grandchildren weren't told personally? That seems a very Margrethe thing to do. I don't get the impression she speaks on the phone very often to he family and certainly never online or using other technology - I wonder if this is why she saw QE2 as a "close friend" despite only seeing each other once or twice a year. The Danish Court can always come out and give us the facts if it really wants to, even a statement like "recollections may vary" would be enough to cast doubt on what has been said so far. Yet, on this, surprising silence.

 

[Prinsara]

When Henrik got upset a few years ago, the press here were busily saying that it was like a real life Hamlet, with a prince of Denmark storming off: that was also international news. You'd think that the upset over that would have been a warning to handle this carefully, but unfortunately it seems not.

They were able to eventually mitigate it by announcing Henrik had dementia, which was simultaneously true, sad, and fortunate. He also had a history of mouthing off, so could be discounted a bit.

Joachim hasn't said anything remotely on the scale of his dad prior to this, and given the resumption of his life post-stroke, is presumably in full possession of his faculties. The "Henrik model" only worked for Henrik.

 

[Somebody]

I don't think it's going to have much effect on their day-to-day lives. But having a title taken away from you smacks of punishment, as if you've done something wrong, and must be very distressing when you haven't. If it can be done with agreement, as it was in Sweden, that's OK, but being stripped of your titles against your will must be very hurtful. It's not the change in titles, it's the way it's been handled - and the fact that it's now big news, not only in Denmark but elsewhere too, which is making everything more difficult.

True but as even Alexandra acknowledged, they were already expecting to loose their titles upon marriage. Like other princes of Denmark before them also experienced. So, while they might not like it, it is part of how the Danish royal family works: princely titles aren't necessarily for life... And Margethe made sure they had an appropriate alternative in maki g them counts of Monpezat, honoring their grandfather's heritage, many years ago.

And the reason this is still news, is only becausr Alexandra, Joachim and Marie decided to comment on it in the way they did. Had they gone about it differently, there would have been one news article about it in most serious foreign press and that would be about it. Now they've given the press plenty to talk about, adding new personal and emotional perspectives creating further discord every single day.

 

[theroyalfly]

Why do I believe the grandchildren weren't told personally? That seems a very Margrethe thing to do. I don't get the impression she speaks on the phone very often to he family and certainly never online or using other technology - I wonder if this is why she saw QE2 as a "close friend" despite only seeing each other once or twice a year. The Danish Court can always come out and give us the facts if it really wants to, even a statement like "recollections may vary" would be enough to cast doubt on what has been said so far. Yet, on this, surprising silence.

This what also bothered me. All of their accounts said they were not told 'personally' but only through somebody else. I am not legitimizing their meltdown on media but even Marie who I really thought will never speak, spoke up.

The QE2 reference is so true. Everytime there's an article about their "supposed" closeness, it always bothered me.

 

[tihkon2]

And what makes you think that Margrethe didn't deal with this face to face?
How do you know that Joachim, Marie and others from their family are telling 100% absolute truth?
.

And what makes you so sure they aren't telling the truth?
It's all a matter of opinion. I think it's likely Margrethe didn't speak to them in person because she is the Queen and that wins over being a grandmother for her. Anyhow, that's how she seems to me. All opinion of course.

 

[Prinsara]

This what also bothered me. All of their accounts said they were not told 'personally' but only through somebody else. I am not legitimizing their meltdown on media but even Marie who I really thought will never speak, spoke up.

The QE2 reference is so true. Everytime there's an article about their "supposed" closeness, it always bothered me.

I am more willing to believe Margrethe felt closer to Elizabeth than to her children and their families, actually.

Since they could both speak positionally and Elizabeth wouldn't have constantly needed her for things or expected much of her. Sometimes it's much easier to be closer to your friends, even the infrequent ones.

 

[Izzie]

I am more willing to believe Margrethe felt closer to Elizabeth than to her children and their families, actually.

Since they could both speak positionally and Elizabeth wouldn't have constantly needed her for things or expected much of her. Sometimes it's much easier to be closer to your friends, even the infrequent ones.

Well that's just really sad and doesn't speak too positively of QMII tbh. I had thought she was different from QEII and that was refreshing. But maybe not.

 

[Nordic]

I am not legitimizing their meltdown on media but even Marie who I really thought will never speak, spoke up.
.

Never? The last time Marie (and Joachim) went to the press and did a similar thing was what, 2 years ago?

 

[Kataryn]

Never? The last time Marie (and Joachim) went to the press and did a similar thing was what, 2 years ago?

What did la belle Marie talk about? I only remember the small upheaval about F&M's investment in Switzerland, nothing else important from 2020. But I'd love to know more!

 

[theroyalfly]

Never? The last time Marie (and Joachim) went to the press and did a similar thing was what, 2 years ago?

Is this about the "It wasn't our choice" when they were rumored to be banished in France? ?

What did la belle Marie talk about? I only remember the small upheaval about F&M's investment in Switzerland, nothing else important from 2020. But I'd love to know more!

I also have no idea.

 

[Lilyflo]

It strikes me that if you know your children are going to lose their prince/princess titles upon marriage or at some other point in the future, the sensible and most caring parental action would be to never use them in the first place. That way, they could have their other titles (or no titles) growing up and never feel the loss of anything. What these princes' parents are doing now is making the whole situation into a public drama of 'punishment' and 'hurt' when that would have all been avoided if they hadn't insisted on using the prince titles up to now.

However, they didn't do the sensible and caring thing early on, so now they've had a chance to prove what good parents they are by swallowing whatever they think and treating the whole thing as inevitable, just earlier than previously planned but no big deal for anybody. Cushioning the loss of title for their children, playing it down, keeping quiet in public and even saying it's not an issue because everybody expected it. Showing some dignity and unity with the crown. Displaying the best of public manners and supporting their children to do the same.

Instead, what I'm seeing is the equivalent of one of those awful TV shows where a dysfunctional family washes its dirty laundry in public. It's vulgar and Prince Joachim (plus wives) should be above creating such an appalling spectacle of egotistic and arrogant entitlement, which is the worst type of example for their children and can't possibly be construed as putting their children's welfare first.

 

[ppetrica]

So far we've only heard one side of the story.
But even this side already isn't consistent (first it was said that this was an unexpected blow, then 5 days are mentioned, then May, first Joachim wasn't told about it, then he was told, first children knew nothing before it was announced, then they did hear about it before...).


So, how do we know that conversations about it didn't start long before May?


Who knows, maybe it was already King Frederik IX who wanted that in the future only crown prince's children should be HRH or HH prince(ss) and children of monarch's younger children (so in this case Joachim's children) should be HE count(ess) as they will never be active royals?


Maybe it really was supposed to be like that (and Joachim knew about it his entire life), but then Joachim and Alexandra asked for their future children to be HH prince(ss) since Frederik at the time didn't have any children of his own (after all, today we know how utterly important titles are for Joachim and his family)?


And then when/if Frederik has several children of his own (so it becomes certain that his children will continue the line of succession), the HH prince(ss) will be removed from Joachim/Alexandra's children as soon as the oldest one finishes education and starts providing independently for him(her)self? Or gets married?


Maybe that's the real reason that back in 2008 title Count(ess) of Monpezat was created? To differ Joachim's children from all those Rosenborgs. And Frederik's children also got it so that one day, when Joachim's children cease to be HH prince(ss), all of the the Queen's grandchildren would have that same title in order for Joachim's children not to differ completely or feel too different from Frederik's children?


What I'm saying is that we don't know how all this evolved until we hear the other side of the story.


And based on the experience with the Sussexes, I think we should all wait for the other side and until that tone down the language against the Queen, Frederik and Mary.

 

[Prinsara]

It strikes me that if you know your children are going to lose their prince/princess titles upon marriage or at some other point in the future, the sensible and most caring parental action would be to never use them in the first place. That way, they could have their other titles (or no titles) growing up and never feel the loss of anything. What these princes' parents are doing now is making the whole situation into a public drama of 'punishment' and 'hurt' when that would have all been avoided if they hadn't insisted on using the prince titles up to now.

However, they didn't do the sensible and caring thing early on, so now they've had a chance to prove what good parents they are by swallowing whatever they think and treating the whole thing as inevitable, just earlier than previously planned but no big deal for anybody. Cushioning the loss of title for their children, playing it down, keeping quiet in public and even saying it's not an issue because everybody expected it. Showing some dignity and unity with the crown. Displaying the best of public manners and supporting their children to do the same.

Instead, what I'm seeing is the equivalent of one of those awful TV shows where a dysfunctional family washes its dirty laundry in public. It's vulgar and Prince Joachim (plus wives) should be above creating such an appalling spectacle of egotistic and arrogant entitlement, which is the worst type of example for their children and can't possibly be construed as putting their children's welfare first.

Wow. What dirty laundry has been aired?

What secrets do we now know that we didn't know before? They both even emphasized that they're not quitting the DRF.

The children had lesser titles to begin with from the very start. Their place in the scheme of things was always clear. There was no boat rocking by anyone.

The people who have sympathy for them in this situation will have sympathy for them. The people who do not will not. And it doesn't seem there's much bridge-building this weekend. Everyone has their mind made up.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I think people are projecting their concept of what a motherly/grandmotherly figure is onto QMII and finding themselves disappointed that she's not living up to it. That's your problem, not hers.

My mother died earlier this year, and I loved her to death. Still do. She wasn't a lovey-dovey person. She wasn't a big hugger, and while my sister and I always knew she loved us, she wasn't June Cleaver. Just because QMII is old and a grandmother doesn't mean she's like YOUR grandmother, who always had hugs, kisses, and homemade cookies for you when you came to visit. Some people are just colder than others.

 

[Kataryn]

Instead, what I'm seeing is the equivalent of one of those awful TV shows where a dysfunctional family washes its dirty laundry in public. It's vulgar and Prince Joachim (plus wives) should be above creating such an appalling spectacle of egotistic and arrogant entitlement, which is the worst type of example for their children and can't possibly be construed as putting their children's welfare first.

I don't think so. Apart from Countess Alexandra's reaction, which was obviously planned for the public release of the Royal decree (3 min. and a spokesperson??? yeah, right!) Joachim and Marie only answered when they were asked, just like the queen, Mary and Benedikte did.


But it is a big thing for a father to have to cope with. Especially when it happens out of nowhere, no public pressure, no fixed date in the Royal calendar. One day you celebrate your mother and the next day you are in purgatory, along with your minor kids? Hey???

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think the most practical thing is to view this whole mess as what it is or does: It points out one of the biggest issues with "modern" monarchy - the position of the spare and what to do with one when no longer needed. It's pretty callous to keep someone around and titled (and kids with titles) as long as they might be needed, and then say later: "Bye-bye! You and your kiddos are no longer needed." We see this dilemma to some extent in many royal families, and I am sure this happened historically, but without the heavy pressure to slim down the monarchies that exists today. It makes the system look a bit ridiculous.

Still it is better than having a Prince of Denmark walking around in 2072 or so because a Queen of three Reigns ago, happened to be his grandmama. That is simply not sustainable anymore and anyone whom wishes the Danish Monarchy a good future in an ever faster changing world knows this.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

So according to Alexandra's spokesperson, who is also authorized to speak on behalf of Joachim and Marie, it was known that Joachim's children were going to lose their titles upon marriage. So, assuming they got married at fairly youngish ages, Joachim's children were going to spend the better part of their lives as His Excellency Count of Monpezat or Her Excellency Countess of Monpezat, and this has been known since when, May 2022? 2008? [...]

It doesn't change the point you were making, but according to what Countess Alexandra's spokesperson said, Athena would have spent the better part of her life as plain "Mrs." if she married a commoner.

The 2008 press release on the creation of Henrik's marital male-line descendants and their wives as Count or Countess of Monpezat specified that the "general rules" (of the nobility) would be applicable to the title, which means that daughters will lose the title on marriage.

https://web.archive.org/web/20080508032342/http://kongehuset.dk/publish.php?id=16821
https://newsbreak.dk/komtesse/

But where was it mentioned by the press secretary that losing his title when getting married is tied to Nikolai marrying his Danish girlfriend, which is what I was questioning?

Apologies, I misunderstood your question. I'm not sure the Danish aspect is what everyone has focused on (Prince Nikolai's long-term girlfriend happens to be Danish), and the statement from the Countess's press secretary implied the princes would lose their titles on marriage regardless of whom they married.

But the people who assumed only foreign spouses would be approved may have inferred it from the fact that the Queen never allowed her cousin Princess Elisabeth to marry Claus Hermansen (her partner up to his death in 1997) without losing her title. This after the Queen had dynastically approved the marriage of Prince Joachim to a foreign commoner in 1995.

So far we've only heard one side of the story.
But even this side already isn't consistent (first it was said that this was an unexpected blow, then 5 days are mentioned, then May, first Joachim wasn't told about it, then he was told, first children knew nothing before it was announced, then they did hear about it before...).

My understanding based on the article translations is that Prince Joachim said the first proposal for removal of his children's titles (at age 25) was presented to him in May but he was only notified of the final decision and announcement five days in advance. Can the Danish readers confirm or deny that?

Joachim's position was very different then with Frederik unmarried and Joachim's children possibly on the Danish throne one day. Adding to that, the perception of monarchy and entitlement has changed since then, massively.

I'm not sure about that. The monarchs of Spain and Luxembourg had already issued decrees setting new limitations on royal titles by the time Nikolai was born.

 

[Saragli]

Marie has, in the past few years, proved herself to be a bit of firecracker. She certainly has no problem speaking her mind. Joachim likes his wives spicey - and I say this as a fan of the Countess and P.Marie - even with their latest's outbursts.

The notion that the Prince's were already expected to lose their titles upon marriage doesn't sit well with me. Yes, there is a precedent for it in the DRF's history but that precedent comes from a very archaic form of thinking i.e. marry nobility(equally) or lose your status. Plus, who's to say J&M's children wont just do a P.Elisabeth and not marry so as to not lose their titles.

We could argue on and on about what should have been done, but, what's done is done. The titles have been removed, the affected family are furious, and there is media storm over it. I will be watching, with much curiosity, how things unfold in the DRK over the next few months.

 

[Mirabel]

We could argue on and on about what should have been done, but, what's done is done. The titles have been removed, the affected family are furious, and there is media storm over it. I will be watching, with much curiosity, how things unfold in the DRK over the next few months.

I imagine the media storm will die down in a few days, as the public grows weary of hearing about it.

As for the problems with the disgruntled spare, perhaps a monarch should be limited to one child?

 

[tommy100]

Well if nothing else we can put it down to Margrethe's unique "way" - all the other monarchs who have been through anything like this have, at least always had the balls, manners, foresight (whatever you want to call it) to speak to those involved personally -

Carl Gustaf - the children came out and said "it has been planned for a long time" & gave the impression they had been consulted and agreed

Queen Elizabeth II - the famous Sandringham summit where it was discussed face to face

Possibly Harald of Norway - his daughter has been reported to have been seen visiting the Royal Palace "numerous time", "likely to discuss a way forward".

Margrethe of Denmark - the Lord Chamberlain informed her son, who then had to tell his children himself

It's oneway to do it. I guess as someone said earlier, if we feel disappointed by that it really is on us. True. But it is a shock to realise one of the sovereigns you most admired is a total b***h to even her own family. I don't see it as a strength tbh, but a huge weakness.

 

[bekalc]

I agree with the idea These are very privileged people complaining.

I don’t think it’s right for the Queens grandchilden to lose their place in succession just for marrying a commoner especially since Frederick married a commoner. They can just fall further down the line

 

[Somebody]

Marie has, in the past few years, proved herself to be a bit of firecracker. She certainly has no problem speaking her mind. Joachim likes his wives spicey - and I say this as a fan of the Countess and P.Marie - even with their latest's outbursts.

The notion that the Prince's were already expected to lose their titles upon marriage doesn't sit well with me. Yes, there is a precedent for it in the DRF's history but that precedent comes from a very archaic form of thinking i.e. marry nobility (equally) or lose your status. Plus, who's to say J&M's children wont just do a P. Elisabeth and not marry so as to not lose their titles.

It seems to be common knowledge that at least the previous king used this custom not necessarily because he disagreed with the choice of bride of his nephews but primarily as a way to manage the size of his 'house'.

Given that it was Alexandra herself who explained that the children were to lose their titles upon marriage. I assume this has been discussed before - and it is consistent with Margrethe making it clear to her cousin (also a grandchild of a monarch) that she would lose her title if she married.

In this way, they at least don't need to contemplate whether to put of marriage for the sake of keeping the style of highness and the title of prince (of Denmark).

I agree with the idea These are very privileged people complaining.

I don’t think it’s right for the Queens grandchilden to lose their place in succession just for marrying a commoner especially since Frederick married a commoner. They can just fall further down the line

It will be interesting to see what happens in this regard. I am pretty sure it is no longer about commonore or nobility. As I said previously, while it was a way for the monarch to limit the number of princes and princesses in the past. now that has been dealt with, there might be some room to keep them in the line of succession if the monarch would want them to - as it is no longer linked to being a prince(ss) of Denmark as well. However, maybe she still wants to limit the number of people in line to the throne? Or they could decide on how many degrees of kinship you need to have to remain in line to the throne (as is for example the practice in the Netherlands - 3 degrees of kinship, so including children (1), siblings and grandchildren (2) and uncles/aunts and great-grandchildren (3)).

 

[polyesco]

...
Margrethe of Denmark - the Lord Chamberlain informed her son, who then had to tell his children himself

It's oneway to do it. I guess as someone said earlier, if we feel disappointed by that it really is on us. True. But it is a shock to realise one of the sovereigns you most admired is a total b***h to even her own family. I don't see it as a strength tbh, but a huge weakness.

That's if we believed that this was only discussed in May and then in september. Joachim has been in Denmark for various jubilee events since May. In August they had the summer at Grasten and recently a surprise of their mother at a military events.
I believe there were face to face talks. Joachim had since May at least to talk to his sons.
Did he think he can ask for more time and that this topic would go away?
Sure, Margrethes decision could have been planned better. But we don't know how much dialogue Joachim was doing. You can't just ignore it.
Joachim and wives have a choice in how to respond. These responses are not the best either.

 

[Prinsara]

Margrethe of Denmark - the Lord Chamberlain informed her son, who then had to tell his children himself

It's oneway to do it. I guess as someone said earlier, if we feel disappointed by that it really is on us. True. But it is a shock to realise one of the sovereigns you most admired is a total b***h to even her own family. I don't see it as a strength tbh, but a huge weakness.

I don't know if Margrethe really does have ice in her heart, any more than I believe Joachim and anyone associated with him are spoiled whiners.

I think she must be giving herself nicotine poisoning wondering how this all went so badly. In a 'blaming herself' way (because she's known to speak of her own faults, far more than those of others).

She's not a good close communicator (except perhaps to her sisters, but we'll never know) and other people's feelings are probably not her first priority. And she's stubborn. But I think she does want to do what's right.

Until we know how this all went to hell in a handbasket, perhaps there's no point in assuming either Daisy or Jokke is so awful. I suspect there are many crossed wires responsible for starting this conflagration.

 

[Sidacarri]

This is just a thought process, so don't attack me. I firmly believe the removal of the titles are the way to go and perhaps it should have been done as soon as Christian was born. I think Joachim has been aware of this happening for a long time maybe as far back as 2008.

Joachim has had a near death experience with his brain bleed and something like that makes you stop and sometimes rethink the direction of life. There is sometimes no reason to thoughts but things you were ok with before like your children not being a Prince or Princess suddenly matter a great deal. You can appear perfectly sound of mind and function normally but you can't let go of this thought and become stubborn on the subject.

Joachim has always seemed a very Royal person, almost like he was above everyone else. So even if he kind of understood why it needs to happen deep inside he doesn't agree and that's why he is so devastated.

 

[tihkon2]

That's if we believed that this was only discussed in May and then in september. Joachim has been in Denmark for various jubilee events since May. In August they had the summer at Grasten and recently a surprise of their mother at a military events.
I believe there were face to face talks. Joachim had since May at least to talk to his sons.

Well, then you're saying Joachim, Marie, and Alexandra are liars. They say the things you believe happened, did not.

 

[camelot23ca]

Hopefully some good can come out of this longer term. Joachim’s children may, in time, come to see the benefits of their grandmother’s decision. And hopefully Mary and Frederik are taking note and will begin to think about what the plan will be for their future grandchildren. I think it may be easier for them because there are three “spares” and the only change they’d need to make would be to decide that Vincent’s children would be treated the same as Isabella and Josephine’s.Vincent would be the only one whose situation would change, but he’d be grouped together with his sisters, so unlikely to feel singled out. And if he didn’t like it, well, it would take some nerve for him yo publicly say that it’s not good enough for his children to be treated the same as his sisters’.

Ideally any decision will be made and communicated to the family members and then the public well before the birth of any future grandchildren. And I hope they announce the changes as a general framework going forward for future generations, not just for M and F’s children. That way no one is singled out and no one has anything taken away from them.