Crown Prince Pavlos: Current and Future Titles


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Raia

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i was reading through the Greek royal family topics and was thinking. They dont actually rule Greece so does that mean that Crown Prince Pavlos wont actually become King Pavlos when his father dies or will he?. Whats the point if he does cos he rarely goes to Greece and the country dont actually want the royal family. So what is the point of having a King and Queen of Greece when they dont live there or do anythink (to my knowledge) for there country.
 
You managed to sum up on side of the debate very well there :)
I don't think he can become "King" Pavlos as they aren't in control of the country. If they really want to, he could become king of the hellenes (although I could be wrong about that or it's highly contraversal. Either way...)
I think he'll stay as Crown Prince, and head of the dynasty. His eldest son will become head (after Pavlos's death) and be head as "prince".
 
You never know!!How can ,each of you,guess what is going to happen 1 hour after you read this??Maybe I go out of town,maybe,maybe ,maybe.....How can you guess what will it be tommorow or the day after!????A KING IS ALWAYS A KING.....this is what it always be stable!!!
 
this is an interesting debate. i too however believe that pavlos will never become king of greece or the hellenes for that matter. i know that i dont know what can happen in an hour from now, but, i think that the greeks are pretty much sealed. there are however some families and kings who are given back their palaces and homes and land and so on, but, when it comes to being given back their thone? dont thik that will ever happen. there are way too many people in greece who still have hard negative feelings toward constantine and his signing the document to hand power over to the republic or what ever it was. several hate him for it and dont even refer to him as king yet, constantine gluksburg! it would be a miracle if this were to happen.
 
Napoleon once remarked " am marrying a womb." He brought up a practical
point.
1. He married Archduchess Marie Louise of Austria (the sacrified once) to produce
a heir. (Prince of Rome).
2. If a consort or wife does not have the talent to be fluent in a language-it is
not the end of the world! relax.
3. The real issue is for the heirs to be fluent in the culture and language-
as they are the imperative aspect of the union.
4. IF the husband loves his consort-that is the icing on the cake. Many marriages
were for dynastic union or practical reasons.
5. It is a good point if the consort can learn a few words, but in the end,
the good deeds and caring for the nation and the people mean more-
"actions speak louder than words" so in the end what good is a language
proficient consort when she makes a nation angry?
6. When the time was ending for King George III-of England-all the princes
and dukes rushed to get married-many to German wives. It was a joke
amongst the British then that at the wedding vows the brides said, "ja",
and from these Deutsch speaking women the race was on to produce the
heir to the throne!

Of course we know who the heir to the winner was-why she is known as
Queen Victoria!

Yes, it is helpful to know the language of the host nation-but not everyone
has the talent or able to pick it up, some small percentage can't!
To me the quality of the lady means more-the character and personality.
 
There are some who come down hard on MC on the language deal.
Let's focus where we need to: let's hope the parents make sure their
children are fluent in Greek and the culture !

After all, the consort is just that: a consort, so she is as Napoleon so well
said: the womb. Of course, love is the best part if it exists, but the heirs
MUST BE THE FUTURE AND MUST KNOW THE LANGUAGE. They are vital,
the wife is not.

now, it is not for us to know if ever any members return to the nation of
Greece or anyone attains the throne or not, but let's deal with the present
issue: are the children doing well in the language area?

And others who are being looked at for consort potential-like Mary and
Frederik.....the personality and character mean more than just
wow-so and so mastered such and such a language in 6 months!
Thats great if someone can do it, but that is not the most vital area.
Raise a excellent specimen for the throne and then let that be the
good results!
 
Unless Greece reinstates the monarchy, Pavlos will never become king. He will only be Crown Prince.
 
I think he always will be Crown Prince even after his father dies
 
No prince Pavlos will not became king when his father, King Konstantinos II, died. Konstantinos (or Constantine) already has this title because he was already King before the military coup of 1967. His actual title is "former king of Greece".
Prince Pavlos don't become King after his father's dead, he stays Crown Prince, he is an heir to the throne, so he and his descendants will all be Crown Prince, as long they have rights to the Greek Throne. They will always keep this rights until they abdicated (i don't know the excact word).
 
So Constantinos-Alexios will one day take his fathers title of Crown Prince? However they could pull the Albanian royal family thingy. Where Luka considers himself king even though he was only crown prince.
 
'Duke of Sparta' title

is the title of the Crown Prince of Greece The Duke of Sparta
someone told me it was, but I have never heard it referred to before
 
The title of the Duke of Sparta is reserved as a subsidiary title of the Crown Prince of Greece. It is similar to Crown Prince Philip of Beligum being the Duke of Brabant or Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden being the Duchess of Vastergotland. The title follows after the senior title of Crown Prince. It is NOT however like the British system that has no title of Crown Prince and therefore The Prince of Wales is a senior title attributed to the heir to the throne, otherwise they would simply be The Prince X of the UK....

Thus the title of the current Duke of Sparta is:

Title:
HRH Pavlos The Crown Prince of Greece, The Duke of Sparta, Prince of Greece and Denmark.
Style:
HRH Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece

The reason Pavlos is not often refered to as The Duke of Sparta is beacuse it is a lesser title than that of Crown Prince. It may also be partially due to the fact that Greece had no other nobility apart from the Royal Family and therefore the Duke of Sparta was the ONLY Dukedom in pre-republic Greece.

Future of the Title:
Assuming the current republican regiem continues in Greece, Constantine II will be the last person to have the title of King (or Ex-King for Republicans). Pavlos will more than likley continue to use the title of Crown Prince, however their decendents may wish to assess the titles the family use. The Royal Family of Bavaria now use their lesser title of Duke of Bavaria and the Serbian Royal Family use the style of Crown Prince for the head of the family. The GRF may either continue to use the title of Crown Prince for the head of the family or may wish to use the Duke of Sparta instead... or perhaps after Constantine has passed away, if Pavlos uses Crown Prince he may wish for Constantine-Alexios to use the title Duke of Sparta.
 
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Thank you for the last post. I have always wondered this! Very well explained.
 
Thanks for that explanation it was very informative and interesting
 
I will Consider Pavlos King Paul II When the time comes
 
The title of the Duke of Sparta is reserved as a subsidiary title of the Crown Prince of Greece. It is similar to Crown Prince Philip of Beligum being the Duke of Brabant or Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden being the Duchess of Vastergotland. The title follows after the senior title of Crown Prince. It is NOT however like the British system that has no title of Crown Prince and therefore The Prince of Wales is a senior title attributed to the heir to the throne, otherwise they would simply be The Prince X of the UK....

Thus the title of the current Duke of Sparta is:

Title:
HRH Pavlos The Crown Prince of Greece, The Duke of Sparta, Prince of Greece and Denmark.
Style:
HRH Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece

The reason Pavlos is not often refered to as The Duke of Sparta is beacuse it is a lesser title than that of Crown Prince. It may also be partially due to the fact that Greece had no other nobility apart from the Royal Family and therefore the Duke of Sparta was the ONLY Dukedom in pre-republic Greece.

Future of the Title:
Assuming the current republican regiem continues in Greece, Constantine II will be the last person to have the title of King (or Ex-King for Republicans). Pavlos will more than likley continue to use the title of Crown Prince, however their decendents may wish to assess the titles the family use. The Royal Family of Bavaria now use their lesser title of Duke of Bavaria and the Serbian Royal Family use the style of Crown Prince for the head of the family. The GRF may either continue to use the title of Crown Prince for the head of the family or may wish to use the Duke of Sparta instead... or perhaps after Constantine has passed away, if Pavlos uses Crown Prince he may wish for Constantine-Alexios to use the title Duke of Sparta.

Queen Frederika, in defiance of the Constitution, named her son Duke of Sparta but the government never agreed to that for it was both unconstitutional and illegal [the late Aristovoulos Manessis, professor of Constitutional Law, has written in detail about that issue]. The title Duke of Sparta had been illegitimately and unconstitutionally also used by king Constantine's grandfather, king Constantine I.

The Constitution of 1952 disallowed titles of nobility (such as duke, marquess, count etc) and provided for only three subsantive titles, those of the king, the queen (consort) and the diadoch (heir to the throne). Indeed, in Greece, and while the monarchy was in effect, there weren't even titles of princes or princesses but a king's children were recognized as vassilopaides (ie royal children) in a manner and fashion similar to that of Spain, where the only prince or princess is the heir to the throne, while the other siblings are infantes and infantas. King Juan Carlos, of course, has always respected the Law of his Land and applied it down to the iota and this explains his immense popularity.
Sadly, the Greek royals chose differently.
 
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Constantine II did not have the title Duke of Sparta, he has stated so publically when asked directly by a royalty historian. As heir to the throne he was known as the Diadoch.

The Duke of Sparta title was used when referring to Constantine I but only outside of Greece. He was not 'Duke of Sparta' within Greece as the King could not give out titles according to the constitution.

Pavlos does not have the 'Duke of Sparta' as one of his titles, he never did.
 
He did but he changed his mind following the public uproar. I own a rare publication by the Ministry to the Premiership (Minister George Rallis) on the royal family dated 1958, that is during the Karamnlis octannum. In there, Constantine is described as Diadoch, Duke of Sparta. Later on and in order to appease the disenchanted masses, and after Professor Manessis and other consitutional experts declared it unconstitutional, King Constantine backed off from this title and declared that it was not true that he was (or was elevated to) duke of Sparta, but it was. This rare publication is also available in the Library of the Borough of Kensighton (High Street Kensington) fo London, UK.

Needless to say that at this juncture, when former King Constantine of Greece is neither legally or constitutionally linked to the polity of Greece, nor does he hold Greek citizenship, he is free to style his son, Duke of Sparta, Marquess of Delphi, Earl of Rhodes, Viscount of Mycenae and Baron Arcadia or whatever his soul pleases since he still holds royal prerogative.
 
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I will Consider Pavlos King Paul II When the time comes

And when time comes, someone else may consider Charles, King Charles of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, the United States of America and the Dominions.
Would you be happy with that? I am sure not.
I hope I made the point. Respect other nations as much as you expect them to respect yours!
 
As far as I can remember the case as it was in Iran: When Shah Reza died his son gave some interview or so that appeared on his web-page and there he proclaimed himself as new Shah.
By the way: If Constantine dies, will he get the permission (or has it already) to be buried in Greece?
 
He will be the titular King of Greece. Like former Crown Prince Ahmad Shah Khan of afghanistan is the Titular King of Afghanistan.
 
I had thought that Pavlos would keep using his current courtesy title as the pretender to the throne?
 
As far as I can remember the case as it was in Iran: When Shah Reza died his son gave some interview or so that appeared on his web-page and there he proclaimed himself as new Shah.
By the way: If Constantine dies, will he get the permission (or has it already) to be buried in Greece?

As we have discussed time and again, former king Constantine can, and is most welcome to, reside in Greece, and is entitled to live there permanently by virtue of his capacity as a European citizen (Danish) alone, that is, regardless of his Greek citizenship.
It is kind of morbid to talk about death plans for a young person and we wish him very many and happy years ahead. However, he is entitled, and needs no one's permission, to be burried in Greece when he passes on.

Greece does not hold grudges against anyone, let alone the former king. Besides, in all EU member countries, European Law prevails over and supersedes individual State Laws.
 
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I had thought that Pavlos would keep using his current courtesy title as the pretender to the throne?

Per past precedent, the oldest son of a former king becomes the pretender to the defunct throne.
Currently, in Europe there is only one parallel case, that of Serbia, where the son of former king Peter, Prince Alexander, is styled officially, that is, by the very government of Serbia, as HRH Crown Prince Alexander. However, in his case, there are important and significant differences:
1) The Serbian government has formally recognized the Karadjordjevic Family as a nation-building dynasty. This is the reason, in fact, that the crown adorns the Serbian Flag, the Palaces have been returned to the RF and, albeit without constitutional status, the Crown Prince partakes in many state functions, within Serbia and abroad.
2) Although a majority of Serbians are republicans, the history they are taught at school is intricately related to the Karadjordjevic Family for centuries and Karadjordje is linked to the struggle for independence (from the Ottoman Empire) of the Serbian people.
3) King Peter was dethroned illegally.
In summary, the national identity of the Serbian people is tied to the Karadjordjevic dynasty and the Serbian people themselves chose to style Prince Alexander as HRH Crown Prince Alexander.

In the case of Greece, matters are profoundly different. While former king Constantine retains the royal prerrogative to style his oldest son Crown Prince, this is not in agreement with the sentiment of the Greek people and the Greek Constitution makes no provision for titles of nobility - but this doesn't matter as long as the members of the former royal family choose not to be Greek nationals. In view of Greece's membership to the EU, it is most certain that no European Court will ever recognize him as titular king upon his father's death. In a historical sense, however, he will continue to be known as Crown Prince in view of the fact that at the time of his birth he was a constitutional Crown Prince. This, nonetheless, does not and cannot apply to his morganatic wife, Mrs. Miller, unless former king Constantine elevates her by letters patent to the status of princess [which he would never do because he would lose even the 10-12% of his remaining popularity among the Greeks who, in certain ways, are incurable snobs]. Finally, all these matters are of no interest or concern to the Greek people.
 
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I know that the Greek government and its people do not recognize the courtesy titles, but I was thinking more of the way that the other royal courts address them. I also wasn't aware that, as a former king, Constantine could issue letters patent regarding anything.
 
Pavlos will one day be recognised as the Head of the Royal House of Greece but this is a dynastic position and has nothing to do with the Greek State.

We need to make two distictions with former reigning houses: their relations with the State (ranging from recognition, such as Crown Prince Alexander of Serbia, to virtual zero acknowledgement as with the Savoys), and their position within the royal world (the Gotha). The latter has no relation with the former and it's likely that at a later date some will consider Pavlos as de juré King of the Hellenes and Head of the Royal House, while the Greek Government will see him as no more than Mr Pavlos Glücksburg.

An example of this 'living in two worlds" position: in Germany Prince Ernst August of Hanover is a private citizen with no special privileges; at the Queen Mother's funeral he was among the senior royal mourners as Head of the Royal House of Hanover. Bringing it back to Greece, for the Greek government Constantine is a former Head of State and not special, while in the royal world he retains his full status among the ranks of deposed Monarchs.
 
Υοu said it all and in a perfect fashion but with two caveats.

1. Even if some day the Gotha recognizes him as the de jure or titular king of the Hellenes, this shall require acknowledgement or endorsement by the European courts, of reigning houses, that is. And, I seriously doubt that any reigning House will do so.

2. The Gotha world is also changing and adapting as you may have noticed, for instance, in the order of precedence at the wedding of the Prince of the Asturias, the Crown Prince of The Netherlands, etc. In the wedding of the Crown Prince of The Netherlands, Mr Anan took precedence over many royal personages. In the group picture of the Prince of the Asturias' wedding, many presidents of European States took precedence over many royal personages, which was unknown practice in the past. I can remember President Havel, for example, sitting (!) in the first row (!). And you would agree, I am sure, that it would be odd for the President of a State to be present in the same place with a titular king of the same country.
 
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