Crown Prince Pavlos: Current and Future Titles

[orrinhoover]

If I can intrude upon the debate as to whether or not Crown Prince Pavlos will ever be king...I think the answer is "maybe." Going by the present constitution of the Hellenic Republic, the answer is no. Going by tradition that dates to the Congress of Vienna, in how one treats former reigning houses and how one governs titles, the answer is also no. According to convention, Pavlos will continue to be recognized as a crown prince, nothing more. But as to the question of a restoration...could Greece ever consider re-establishing the monarchy? Stranger things have happened. Who ever would have thought that King George II of Greece would be restored to the throne in 1935...probably very few people one he was initially dispatched in 1923...including, most likely, the king himself. If memory serves, he was the one who rather wryly remarked that all one needs to be king of Greece is a suitcase. But I think, in my humble opinion, the more important question is whether Pavlos should become king. Has he done anything to earn the right to be King of the Hellenes...other than be the eldest son of a former king? I think it is clear to most that Juan Carlos of Spain was restored to the throne of Spain because a dictator decreed it...Franco. I think he has remained king of Spain because he has earned the right...he has devoted his life to the service of the Spanish people and to the promulgation and defense of Spanish democracy. Has Pavlos? Has he devoted his life to the Greek people and to Greek democracy? I ask this question because I really don't know. Someone mentioned a while back Crown Prince Alexander II of Serbia. I would not be surprised if we saw a monarchical restoration in Serbia in the next few years because Alexander has been steadily working towards that goal ever since his full time return to Serbia in the late '90s. He has steered clear of politics, save for lobbying for constitutional monarchy and the establishment of democray within Serbia. He and his wife have devoted themselves to philanthopy within Serbia and have sought to encourage foreign investment in their war ravaged country. I think he can be viewed as someone endeavoring to earn the right to be king of Serbia. I think that, if Pavlos seriously wanted to be considered as a possible king of the Hellenes, he should follow in Alexander of Serbia's footsteps. He and Marie Chantal should live full time in the country, devote themselves to the service of the Greek people, and perhaps they will win the people over. But they must be willing to invest years towards this effort...many years. They might not ever be king and queen of Greece, but they might win for the royal family some kind of official recognition...and more importantly, foster respect for a royal past within Greece that I gather so many hold in contempt. As a monarchist myself, one of the few American monarchists I suspect, I would welcome a restoration in any nation that has a monarchical history and tradition. But for a democratic republic to be dislodged in favor of a monarchy, something that I don't think we've yet seen in modern history, there have to be an extraordinary set of events that need to take place in order to make that transition seem logical and desireable...something beyone mere nostalgia. Deposed monarchs and their decendents who desire to be restored to their former positions need to earn the right of return. I would recommend that Pavlos and Marie Chantal roll up their sleeves and get to work helping the victims of the recent fires...if they haven't already. That would be a great first step towards winning the hearts and minds of the Greek people.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

If I can intrude upon the debate as to whether or not Crown Prince Pavlos will ever be king...

You are most welcome

Going by tradition that dates to the Congress of Vienna, in how one treats former reigning houses and how one governs titles, the answer is also no.

I am glad you say that because the former King keeps making references to the Congress of Vienna. Despite the fact that his claims are not correct, he also forgets the crux of the issue: Greece was not a co-signatory for the simple reason that it didn't exist as an independent state in 1814. In fact, the First National Assembly of the Hellenes, after the initiation of the Hellenic Revolution in 1821 and while the war was still going on, took place in 1822.

According to convention, Pavlos will continue to be recognized as a crown prince, nothing more.

You are correct to believe that.

But as to the question of a restoration...could Greece ever consider re-establishing the monarchy?

The best ways to answer this question is with
1. Either another question, what for? or
2. A postive assertion, that is, that Greece could benefit from the restoration of monarchy as much as the USA would from the same.

Stranger things have happened. Who ever would have thought that King George II of Greece would be restored to the throne in 1935...probably very few people one he was initially dispatched in 1923...including, most likely, the king himself. If memory serves, he was the one who rather wryly remarked that all one needs to be king of Greece is a suitcase.

You are getting off topic. You may find details about past circumstances under thread The Position of the Royal Family and Attitudes to Restoration where I would be delighted to compare circumstances of the past etc.

But I think, in my humble opinion, the more important question is whether Pavlos should become king.

Again, this thread is not about the restoration of monarchy in Greece and Warren will get upset if I start discussing the issue. You are referred to the aforementioned thread where we can discuss the matter to exhaustion. The question of this thread is whether the former Crown Prince of Greece, Crown Prince Paul can be or will be elevated to the status of Titular King (and less so Reigning King) upon his father's passing in the distant future.
Answer as to Titular King has been given by Warren above. Answering whether he will, would or should become a reigning King may be given again through the question, What would or could Greece, a solid and prospering sovereign State, member of the EU, benefit from having a hereditary Head od State instead of an elected one.

Has he devoted his life to the Greek people and to Greek democracy? I ask this question because I really don't know.

He hasn't been asked, and doesn't need to and it would be odd for a Danish citizen to do so in Greece. The smartest thing former King Constantine and his children could do would be to strip themselves of their titles, adopt a surname, become Greek citizens and run for political office etc.
It is important for a non-Greek to understand, first and foremost, that contemporary Greeks up to the age of 40 don't have the slightest clue about the frictions of the past and they don't care about politics. But the concept of a hereditary head of State is as foreign to them as to the American people.
I hope you also understand that while in the past the Hellenes had a positive attitude toward the Monarchy but a negative one against the personages, nowadays, they have no problem against the personages but they are not interested in the concept od hereditary Head of State.

He and Marie Chantal should live full time in the country

They can do so anytime as Danish citizens, or as Greek citizens after they adopt a surname and then, and then only, they can play politics and do as they please.

....devote themselves to the service of the Greek people, and perhaps they will win the people over.

The Queen and Diana have won the hearts of the American people. This doesn't mean that the American people would want QEII to become their monarch. Likewise, the Hellenes have no problem whatsoever with the children of former King Constantine but this doesn't mean that they would want them as dynasts.

But they must be willing to invest years towards this effort...many years.

For the sake of the argument, if Crown Prince Paul had a one in a million chance of becoming King before his marriage to Mrs Miller, the chances are now one in a quadrillion. I hope you understand that, in many ways, the Greeks are arrogant like their forebears who insisted that Πας μη Ελλην βάρβαρος [every non-Hellene is a barbarian]. It is sad to acknowledge it, since discrimination and stereotypes have no place in society, but it is true that the Greeks look upon nouveaux riches and ethnic people [and Mrs Miller fits both categories] with contempt. In fact, Mrs Miller is the constant target of ridicule by the Greek Media.
To be fair though, one of the reasons is that, in defiance of royal precedent in the Greek Royal House, former King Constantine permits Mrs Miller to be internationally addressed and referred to as Crown Princess [with or without of Greece] which is inappropriate and disrespectful το the Crown. The marriage was morganatic and thus, even though no more reigning and able to do as he pleases, former King Constantine should have either demanded that she remain Mrs Miller or, through letters patent, elevated her to the rank of Princess. To the best of my knowledge he's never done so. And, with his continued aloofness on the matter, the King has fed into the constant ridicule of Mrs Miiler and the history of the Greek Crown.

 

[Philippe Egalite']

The Greek Constitution, does not recognize titles (or courtsey titles for that matter) insofar as the citizens of Greece are concerned. To make it crystal-clear, it works like the American Constitution. As you know, the late Ronald Reagan was elevated to a knight by The Queen, thus becoming Sir Ronald Reagan, but he never used it nor could he ever use it as an American citizen.
Needless to say, that Greece would still acknowledge statutorily recognized titles of non-Greek citizens. If, say, the queen of the Belgians visited Greece, she would be referred to as HM queen Paola or as HM the queen of the Belgians.

To your second point, it is worth mentioning that dynasts or former dynasts have prerogatives or privileges from within the royal world of Gotha which are distinct and separate from the laws of the countries they reign, or used to reign, in. A former king may still grant Dynastic Family Orders (decorations) as and when he pleases. In the case of the former royal family of Greece , for instance, king Constantine has the prerogative to elevate Mrs. Miller, the morganatic wife of his son, to the rank of princess, when he so decides.

 

[sgl]

I am not familiar with Greek constitutional law. It seems to me that the decision should be up to the people of Greece. Whatever the people of Greece decide, the former Greek royal family should accept gracefully. To me, this is the very idea of regal behavior.

 

[Bella]

I am not familiar with Greek constitutional law. It seems to me that the decision should be up to the people of Greece. Whatever the people of Greece decide, the former Greek royal family should accept gracefully. To me, this is the very idea of regal behavior.

I believe they have accepted it. I think their most recent concerns were being allowed to visit Greece as tourists. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think the issue was the use of titles on their passports. The Greek gov't. would not acknowledge their royal titles and insisted they use a last name.

In terms of their personal feelings, I'm sure they would like to return to Greece in a royal capacity. I'm sure Constantine would like to see the dynasty secured through Pavlos and Konstantinos. I'm sure Pavlos would like to reign as King of Greece and I'm sure MC would LOVE to be known as HM Queen of Greece. But I think the family has no delusions it will ever happen.

 

[Duquesita]

I don't think so. But I think MC is sure he will be King.

 

[serenissima]

Since King Constantine renounced his throne, I understand that Crown Prince Pavlos will be always known as Crown Prince Pavlos. King Constantine retained his title of king because he was enthroned as such but Crown Prince who has never been enthroned as such will not be able to style himslef as King Pavlos or whatever. That is how I understand it. If Pavlos styles himself as King Pavlos or whatever, then, Dr Otto von Habsburg et all should be styled as His Most Apostolic Majesty the King of Hungary, the Emperor etc.

 

[sita]

Philippe Egalite, I found your last posts very interesting and documented, but I do not understand why you repeatedly speak of Mrs Miller and of a morganatic marriage.
MC was not married before she got engaged to Pavlos, so she was a miss, and then it is quite usual to be called like one's husband (although in this case I understand Greece does not want them to be called "of Greece", is that it ?).
As for a morganatic marriage, what was the tradition in Greece ? (I think when Prince Michel married Marina Karella it was quite a problem for many). When you say morganatic, is it the same as unequal ?

Thank you in advance, I just want to understand your point of vue.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

This is the first time I have ever read the former Marie Chantal Miller referred to as the Prince's morganatic wife. She converted to the Orthodox Church before the wedding and as a previous poster stated had never been married before.

So why would she be considered morganatic? Thanks-

 

[serenissima]

I was under the impression that the Greek royal house had got rid of this "morganatic" marriage house law. Their daughter got married to a non royal Spanish man and don't they live in Spain now ?

"Morganatic" marriage is a situation in which a royal person who is not supposed to marry a person who is below his/her station (in other words, non royal person) marries to him/her. Marie-Chantal Miller was born American and without a royal status that had the Greek royal house been tied to the old law of the morganatic marriage forbidden etc, then, the children born between Pavlos and Marie-Chantal would have been regarded as non-royal etc. However, what I understand is that since that family got rid of this regulation, Marie-Chatal's marriage is a valid one in the eyes of Pavlos's father etc.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Right. I understand what a morganatic marriage is, it's just that like yourself I thought the Greek Royal house had given approval of Pavlos marriage and that MC was considered Princess Pavlos after the wedding.

 

[serenissima]

Well, it seems as though that family are very relaxed about things according to people who know them though the King and Queen have to be addressed as Their Majesties all the time whereas we can address to our queen as "Ma'am" once we addressed to her as "Your Majesty".

 

[misselle]

Right. I understand what a morganatic marriage is, it's just that like yourself I thought the Greek Royal house had given approval of Pavlos marriage and that MC was considered Princess Pavlos after the wedding.

I thought the same;M-C was welcomed into the family with welcoming arms.

 

[Warren]

This thread is more concerned with the title that Crown Prince Pavlos may or may not assume following the death of his father in the hopefully distant future.
Posts discussing attitudes to restoration of the Greek Monarchy have been moved to the restoration thread.

thanks,
Warren
Greek RF moderator

 

[Princess Robijn]

According to the Spanish Royal Family Marie-Chantal is:
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]

Su Alteza Real la Princesa Marie-Chantal de Grecia​

Duquesa de Esparta

http://www.casareal.es/boda/info/InvitadosCatedral.pdf

(Ik know she would technically be HRH Crown Princess Pavlos, but still)
[/FONT]

 

[Odette]

Princess Robijn, this title is twice wrong. She has been fashioned HRH Princess Pavlos of Greece, not C.P MC of Greece.
The Spanish Court is of course closely related to the GRF and they have every right to include her in their guest lists by any names and titles they wish, but that does not mean these are her correct titles.
BTW When, hopefully years from now, K Constantine passes, Pavlos will be referred to as pretender to the throne, not Crown Prince.

 

[Princess Robijn]

You mean not as King, as he is Crown Prince?

 

[Odette]

King Constantine carries the title of King because he was invested as King when his father King Paul died in 1964. He remained King even after the Dec 13 1967 coup when the family left Greece and settled in Rome. The Colonels, changed Greece into a democracy when they claimed K Constantine was trying to overthrow them from abroad. When in 1974 the Colonels fell and there was a referendum about 80% of the Greeks voted to abolish the monarchy. To this day, officially K Constantine is not King of the Greeks by for some ex King Constantine and others King of the Hellenes. If we add on this that Pavlos was born in 1967 while the Royal family was still reigning, P Pavlos is still known as Crown Prince...........
Going forward a long time, after King Constantine's passing, Pavlos cannot be Crown Prince of Greece since there would be no King alive at that point. He cannot be known as King since he has no country to reign. Therefore he can be carrying the title of "Pretender to the Greek throne" since K Constantine never abdicated but accepted the wish of the Greek people.

 

[Warren]

Pavlos can carry the title of 'Crown Prince' for the rest of his life just as Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia [Serbia] does so today.

 

[Warren]

Posts discussing Pavlos's future title have been moved to the Pavlos title of King thread.

 

[Bella]

Any Greek royal title is purely a courtesy title as they no longer rule and Greece no longer has a monarchy. Most people don't take these titles too seriously.

 

[Odette]

Pavlos can carry the title of 'Crown Prince' for the rest of his life just as Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia [Serbia] does so today.

You make a very good point Warren. I was always wondering about Alexander since Yugoslavia no longer exists.
Still, in Greek Pavlos's title is Diadohos which means, heir/next in line. If he gets at the front of the line with no one ahead.........in Greek at least the title would be obsolete even for those who can still dream of a restoration. Let us hope it is going to be a real long time before we find out how he is going to fashion himself.

 

[ckitis]

i was reading through the Greek royal family topics and was thinking. They dont actually rule Greece so does that mean that Crown Prince Pavlos wont actually become King Pavlos when his father dies or will he?. Whats the point if he does cos he rarely goes to Greece and the country dont actually want the royal family. So what is the point of having a King and Queen of Greece when they dont live there or do anythink (to my knowledge) for there country.

Yes, I have been thinking the same. How can the Crown Prince Pavlos not succeed to the throne? Who has not thought about that? How is the King of the Hellenes going to approach his people to regain their trust and, if so, how will the heir to the throne politicise and how will they react?

 

[Lumutqueen]

Their titles are in name only, when Constantine dies Pavlos won't be King Pavlos. IF they choose to restore the monarchy, Pavlos would be the likely choice but not a guarantee.

 

[DukeJonathan81]

He technically COULD declare himself "King Pavlos II". There is legally nothing stopping after his fathers passing and his accession to the head of the House of Glüksburg-Greece. The claimant to the Albanian Throne, Prince Leka, styles himself "HM the King of the Albanians, Leka II" so what would stop Pavlos, he can call himself whatever he likes once he ascends to the Headship.

Though I suspect he will continue to be styled "Crown Prince" just to keep controversy down, the Greek Royal Family do not need to go around opening doors that should remain shut...


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[ckitis]

The Duke of Sparta

Crown Prince Pavlos can definately call himself the King of the Hellenes when he succeeds to his father and that is what I will call him, but his brother Prince Nikolaos is on the verge of forming a political party called the National Patriotic Front, which is what I plan to vote for, that is to be governed by a board of businessmen and officials in high posts. If his party wins the elections or forms a coalition government the greek monarchy will immediately be restored. For the time being I think it would be good to call the Crown Prince the Duke of Sparta and hope for the best to come.

 

[Nikolopoulus]

Prince Nikolaos has not created any political party. The Royal family has denied these news or rumors. In the interview of the spanish newspaper , ABC, it was published in July, these are the words of King Constantine ,when he was asked by these possibilities : " A monarchy does not mutate to a political party". This is the Principle of the Greek Royal Family "not mutate" . Prince Paul is not calls himself King .HE is Crown Prince, it is true that King George A of the Hellenes created one title to Crown Prince, it was Duke of Sparta.

 

[NotHRH]

He technically COULD declare himself "King Pavlos II". There is legally nothing stopping after his fathers passing and his accession to the head of the House of Glüksburg-Greece. The claimant to the Albanian Throne, Prince Leka, styles himself "HM the King of the Albanians, Leka II" so what would stop Pavlos, he can call himself whatever he likes once he ascends to the Headship.
Though I suspect he will continue to be styled "Crown Prince" just to keep controversy down, the Greek Royal Family do not need to go around opening doors that should remain shut...


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Frankly, Greece had no royal family and neither does Albania. Leka can "legally" name himself whatever he wants to, that does not make it so - hardly anybody knows Albania exists. Greece is a country many have heard of, but it no longer formally recognizes it's ex-royal family. So how can ex-Crown Prince Pavlos go to ex-King Pavlos after his father's passing????? I thought ex-royals from Europe could only use their former royal title as part of their name (Otto von Bismark comes to mind)? It just amazes me how ex-royals just cannot accept their fate in life - they're still filthy-@$$ rich - why should they let a title define them?

 

[Marengo]

I do not think that it matters much if 'many' do not know that Albania exists. Although I must say that here in Europe most people do know the country.

I agree with you that it would be rediculous for Pavlos to actually use the title 'king' and I doubt that he will. Like the crown prince of Yugoslavia he will most likely continue to be known as Crown Prince Pavlos.

 

[NotHRH]

Crown Prince Pavlos can definately call himself the King of the Hellenes when he succeeds to his father and that is what I will call him, but his brother Prince Nikolaos is on the verge of forming a political party called the National Patriotic Front, which is what I plan to vote for, that is to be governed by a board of businessmen and officials in high posts. If his party wins the elections or forms a coalition government the greek monarchy will immediately be restored. For the time being I think it would be good to call the Crown Prince the Duke of Sparta and hope for the best to come.

I respect your thoughts, but are you serious???????