Madeleine and Chris: Media and Public Opinion

[Mbruno]

If Princess Leonore and Prince Nicolas lose their succession rights, will they also lose their titles?

Carl Gustaf's uncles lost their princely titles when they were removed from the line of succession. If the precedent holds, then I suppose the same will happen to Leonore and Nicholas.

It is worth noting though that, in Belgium for example, Prince Amedeo was removed from the line of succession, but is still an HRH. The difference is that, in Belgium, there is a royal decree issued by King Baudouin and still in force today saying that all descendants of King Albert II are automatically princes of Belgium irrespective of succession rights.

In Sweden, on the other hand, as far as I understand, there is no legal instrument that actually regulates the titles of members of the Royal Family, although the Act of Succession seems to assume implicitly that all persons in the line of succession to the throne are princes (or princesses) of Sweden. For example, the Act of Succession only mentions conditions under which "a prince or princess of the Royal House" would lose his/her eligibility to ascend the throne and says nothing about how someone else who is in the line to the throne, but is not a prince/princess, would forefeit his/her succession rights.

 

[JR76]

Hmm... I thought he did as Victoria did. She took her time to recuperate after the birth but when she got back she went down to a "part time" schedule, wich was her version of maternity leave. And when Daniel "took over" he did the same. Not full time paternal leave, but a paternal part time

Another angle on their parental leave is that they never applied for any parental benefits during the leave. Yet another angle on the angle of their parental leave is that Victoria isn't entitled to any parental benefits on account of the appanage not being considered a salary.


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[LadyFinn]

Hmm... I thought he did as Victoria did. She took her time to recuperate after the birth but when she got back she went down to a "part time" schedule, wich was her version of maternity leave. And when Daniel "took over" he did the same. Not full time paternal leave, but a paternal part time

Yes, but the press gave the impression like Daniel would have been months an a paternity leave and then again started working, although everyone could see from the court website, that he was working every month.

Victoria had little over 70 work events after Estelle was born in 2012, I counted them hastily from the Annual report.

 

[Queen Claude]

Being in the line of succession and being given HKH and prince/princess titles and dukedoms are different things. For me the debate is not around being in the line of succession, rather it is around the titles and dukedoms and the pomp and circumstances that go with it. If Madeleine and Chris have strong feelings that their children should have royal titles and stylings, more power to them, but they are very naive if they think that eyebrows are not going to be raised over that choice.

 

[JR76]

Being in the line of succession and being given HKH and prince/princess titles and dukedoms are different things. For me the debate is not around being in the line of succession, rather it is around the titles and dukedoms and the pomp and circumstances that go with it. If Madeleine and Chris have strong feelings that their children should have royal titles and stylings, more power to them, but they are very naive if they think that eyebrows are not going to be raised over that choice.

You're right in it being different things though it's new for Sweden. It's never happened before that someone who lost their place in the Line of Succession kept their titles and remained part of the Royal house so we'll just have to wait and see what happens.


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[Mbruno]

Being in the line of succession and being given HKH and prince/princess titles and dukedoms are different things. For me the debate is not around being in the line of succession, rather it is around the titles and dukedoms and the pomp and circumstances that go with it. If Madeleine and Chris have strong feelings that their children should have royal titles and stylings, more power to them, but they are very naive if they think that eyebrows are not going to be raised over that choice.

Again, you are right that, in most countries, being an HRH and being in the line of succession are two different things. In Sweden, that is unclear though. There is at least one example of a Swedish HRH who is not (and never was) in the line of succession, namely princess Birgitta. But, on the other hand, there are also two recent examples of HRHs (Sigvard and Carl Johann Bernadotte) who ceased to be princes when they lost their succession rights.

As far as I know, Sigvard Bernadotte later petioned for restoration of a princely title in Sweden without being reinstated though to the line of sucsession , but King Carl Gustaf never accepted his request.

 

[JR76]

Again, you are right that, in most countries, being an HRH and being in the line of succession are two different things. In Sweden, that is unclear though. There is at least one example of a Swedish HRH who is not (and never was) in the line of succession, namely princess Birgitta. But, on the other hand, there are also two recent examples of HRHs (Sigvard and Carl Johann Bernadotte) who ceased to be princes when they lost their succession rights.

As far as I know, Sigvard Bernadotte later petioned for restoration of a princely title in Sweden without being reinstated though to the line of sucsession , but King Carl Gustaf never accepted his request.

Princess Birgitta was never in the Line of succession but she was, and still is, a member of the Royal house according to the rules of the day.

IIRC both Sigvard and Lennart applied to be reinstated in their titles after Bertil married and got to keep his title. The King denied their application and while Lennart accepted that Sigvard eventually unilaterally decided to take his title back.
Carl Johan never bothered to apply because in the words of his wife Kerstin "There's no use in crying over spilled milk especially if you spilled it yourself".


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[Stefanie]

Where can I find a thread concerning the fact that Madeleine gave her children titles instead of naming them Miss or Master O´Neill? Is there one? After they fall down in the line of succession deeper and deeper what is the sense of giving them a title?

 

[Marty91charmed]

Where can I find a thread concerning the fact that Madeleine gave her children titles instead of naming them Miss or Master O´Neill? Is there one? After they fall down in the line of succession deeper and deeper what is the sense of giving them a title?

The same could be said for other european royals who are further down the line of succession and still have titles. They are fully entitled to have titles! But they'll eventually lose them if both children won't growp up and attend school in Sweden

 

[NotHRH]

Where can I find a thread concerning the fact that Madeleine gave her children titles instead of naming them Miss or Master O´Neill? Is there one? After they fall down in the line of succession deeper and deeper what is the sense of giving them a title?

It was reported in the media, when Chris registered Nicolas' birth the day after his birth, he registered P Nicolas' surname as "Bernadotte" and not "O'Neill." I assume he did the same for P Lenore. I do not know his reasoning for that, but I assume he did it because he wants what he believes will be the best for those two babies. He wants them to have the best of everything in life. I will try to locate and post the source of the info in my 1st sentence.

 

[NotHRH]

I thought CG's two uncles lost their titles for marrying without the king's (CG's grandfather) blessing/permission. It was not because they moved further down the line of succession. This why Bertil and Lilian waited to marry until King Gustav - Adolph passed away. B and L had lived together for 20+ years before they wed.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The same could be said for other european royals who are further down the line of succession and still have titles. They are fully entitled to have titles! But they'll eventually lose them if both children won't growp up and attend school in Sweden

Maybe. As Mbruno wrote above, there is no legal instrument regulating the titles of the royal family, which leaves them to the sovereign's own whims. The current king might be less unsparing than his great-grandfather Gustaf V, who disapproved of his grandsons choosing to marry unequally and lose their succession rights.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

After the christening, Chris took a taxi and left with HIS family, without Madeleine, to have a few glasses of wine. He spent the whole evening with his mother Eva O'Neill and sisters and brother in law Henry.

History repeats itself. When Princess Leonore, 1, for example, was baptized last summer, the entire royal family gathered for a private party. But without Chris, who went to the the same exclusive tavern Sturehof in central Stockholm to drink on his own.

Chris' love of tavern life and his way of leaving his lovely family is now being questioned by people familiar with the royal family.
- It feels weird. One wonders why Chris did not want to be with his fine family? Why is not he with Madde. How can Stureplan attract more? The behavior has led to Madeleine now feel more and more despondent.
- Madeleine complains about Chris' disrespect. He does his own thing. It is not at all good. It remains to be seen how Madeleine tackle the longer term, says a source.

Chris övergav gråtande Madeleine | Stoppa Pressarna – Kungligheter – Kungafamiljen – Svensk Damtidning – Prinsessan Madeleine – Kronprinsessan Victoria

German print tabloid Die Aktuelle picks up on the story on their front page: 'drama after the christening'.

 

[LadyFinn]

After the christening, Chris took a taxi and left with HIS family, without Madeleine, to have a few glasses of wine. He spent the whole evening with his mother Eva O'Neill and sisters and brother in law Henry.

History repeats itself. When Princess Leonore, 1, for example, was baptized last summer, the entire royal family gathered for a private party. But without Chris, who went to the the same exclusive tavern Sturehof in central Stockholm to drink on his own.

Chris' love of tavern life and his way of leaving his lovely family is now being questioned by people familiar with the royal family.
- It feels weird. One wonders why Chris did not want to be with his fine family? Why is not he with Madde. How can Stureplan attract more? The behavior has led to Madeleine now feel more and more despondent.
- Madeleine complains about Chris' disrespect. He does his own thing. It is not at all good. It remains to be seen how Madeleine tackle the longer term, says a source.

Chris övergav gråtande Madeleine | Stoppa Pressarna – Kungligheter – Kungafamiljen – Svensk Damtidning – Prinsessan Madeleine – Kronprinsessan Victoria

The story is from gossip magazine Hänt Extra, Stoppa pressarna quotes it.
On the cover
http://www.allerbutiken.se/Global/Covers/HEX.jpg

 

[Muhler]

Hmm, so after having spend time with his Swedish in-laws, he spend some time with his own family?
Is that the story or have I misunderstood something?
Isn't that a reasonable thing to do?

 

[eya]

Soo much negative for Madeleine. It is sad. I do not know who to fault perhaps negative sells more but surely and Mandeleine did the best moves communications. I really hope the best for her.

 

[Madame Verseau]

I can see why Madeleine and Chris moved to London. The cheap shots from the media
are just ridiculous. @eya - scandal sells.

@Lady Finn - I did not know CP hardly had any press coverage for his engagements pre - marriage, and now he's swamped with media when he's with Sofia. I think the up-tick in coverage is due to Sofia is the reality show star that married into a royal house and she's compared to Kate. Those story angles sell newspapers.

The line of succession issue may be re-defined by the Riksdag again. It was the Riksdag who removed CP as heir apparent and elevated Victoria to be crown princess in 1979. It may clarify who is classified as a successor to the throne. It may also redefine who is the Royal Family.

 

[LadyFinn]

I can see why Madeleine and Chris moved to London. The cheap shots from the media
are just ridiculous. @eya - scandal sells.

The article may be cheap, but Madeleine doesn't give any material to positive articles, well, the christening of Nicolas was positive.
She doesn't let the press close to her, doesn't let them see her at work, working for Sweden. At their visit to Peru and Colombia Victoria and Daniel let the press very close to them, talk to them. Meet them early in the morning in front of the hotel and look like they like to meet the press and they like to represent Sweden.
https://instagram.com/p/9BdrEWJLED/
https://instagram.com/p/9Dy55vRSSt/?taken-by=expressenkungligt
The reporters are a meter away of Victoria and Daniel in their trip in many places. They have seen in H&M how Daniel thinks if he would buy a cushion to home at Haga and Victoria looks clothes, or how Victoria and Daniel have been touched to meet the children with cancer. They have talked with Victoria and Daniel.
The same happened with Carl Philip and Sofia in Värmland and Dalarna. But with Madeleine that is not possible.

 

[NotHRH]

In all fairness, V, CP, and M, although siblings, are all completely different people. Madeleine figured out long ago (maybe post-Jonas) that she actually received more attention by trying to hide from the public. By hiding from public view, she makes herself seem more intriguing. V and CP are much more open about themselves. The more M hides about herself and her life, the more people wonder, and consequently the more attention she receives for being reclusive. As for Chris, he may just have wanted to spend time with his family, and maybe his family was not invited to celebrate Nicolas' christening with the royal family. Maybe...maybe...maybe...I have my own theory about Madde and Chris (3 more kids in the next 3 years? - if he stays that long) ...we will just have to wait and see. Nobody likes to be used. Of course, all of this is just my opinion.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Chris shares a deep closeness with his mother and sisters, particularly Countess Natascha. Maybe he cherishes the opportunities to spend time alone with them getting caught up.

His life has changed since he became a member of the SRF.

 

[MARG]

If the article is true and that's a big if, then one would have to wonder what on earth is wrong with Chris O'Neill and his family. After a baptism, there is invariably a family gathering to celebrate and to catch up with each other. Just because it is a royal baptism doesn't make it any different.

Chris's family was at the baptism so one would have to wonder at their sheer ill manned behaviour in isolating themselves from the celebration and then decamping to a pub. Now if they joined together for their own family reunion the evening before or after, that would have been fine.

 

[Roslyn]

If the article is true and that's a big if, then one would have to wonder what on earth is wrong with Chris O'Neill and his family. After a baptism, there is invariably a family gathering to celebrate and to catch up with each other. Just because it is a royal baptism doesn't make it any different.

Chris's family was at the baptism so one would have to wonder at their sheer ill manned behaviour in isolating themselves from the celebration and then decamping to a pub. Now if they joined together for their own family reunion the evening before or after, that would have been fine.

I can't get worked up about this. As you point out, it may be a royal baptism but it's also just a baptism and issues and conflicts are going to arise just like in any family. Just because they are married doesn't mean Madeleine and Chris always have to be together at functions like this or that their respective families have to force themselves to mix together.

Maybe Chris doesn't really get on with some members of Madeleine's family. Maybe her family likes to always speak Swedish when they get together at family celebrations like this and Chris preferred to be with his own family speaking English. Maybe Madeleine's family hounds Chris about his choices and pesters him to learn Swedish and just generally gangs up on him. Maybe there has been some sort of illness or problem in his own family that he wanted to talk about with his family privately.

I don't think it necessarily follows that his family is ill-mannered because they chose to get together alone. They might be, of course, but I don't think it necessarily follows from the bare information we know, even if what we do know is true.

 

[grevinnan]

The article posted somehow managed to mash a whole afternoon of activities together to make it look as if the father of the baptized child just took off.

The baptism was at noon followed by a reception and then a lunch for family and friends. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Chris and his family were not present. He was seen dining out with his family in the evening. I am sure by that time Princess Madeleine were worn out and thankful to not have to do any more entertaining. If I were her I would be very grateful for Chris entertaining his family at a restaurant. She could then possible spend a few hours with her family before travelling back to London.

 

[Lee-Z]

Maybe Chris doesn't really get on with some members of Madeleine's family. Maybe her family likes to always speak Swedish when they get together at family celebrations like this and Chris preferred to be with his own family speaking English. Maybe Madeleine's family hounds Chris about his choices and pesters him to learn Swedish and just generally gangs up on him. Maybe there has been some sort of illness or problem in his own family that he wanted to talk about with his family privately.

Well if we're speculating why not complete the list with: maybe his family doesn't like her or vice-versa etc

Anyway, it's not a problem in itself, but the couple sure gives the media loads of opportunities to come up with stories...

 

[NotHRH]

Chris shares a deep closeness with his mother and sisters, particularly Countess Natascha. Maybe he cherishes the opportunities to spend time alone with them getting caught up.

His life has changed since he became a member of the SRF.

That's it though, I don't think Chris considers himself a member of the Swedish royal family. There seems to be no closeness between him and his in-laws, almost a nonexistent relationship. He does not like media attention, whereas PM does, though she would like everybody to believe otherwise. Because he refused royal title from CG, there is obviously more than meets the eye. Many theories can assumed, but as the years progress, the reason may become obvious. In the birth registry, he signed Leonore's heand Nicolas' last names as "Bernadotte." He may realize they will always be Bernadotte's first and foremost and that was probably not his decision. When all is said and done, he (and probably also P Daniel) will be left out if their marriages do not last. Must be very hard for a man not to be able to give his child his last name because of his wife's position in society. Just my opinions and thoughts on Chris Madde and family.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Thank you, those are excellent points you made. For a proud father not to be able to pass on his name to his children must be a hard pill to swallow.

I am not quite sure if I believe that Chris actively dislikes his Royal in-laws and vice-versa, but I am satisfied with my privately held opinion that he does not feel particularly close to them.

And btw...Chris was not looking his best at the baby's christening. He looked bloated, puffy and tired...barely awake at times.

 

[Marengo]

The reporters are a meter away of Victoria and Daniel in their trip in many places. They have seen in H&M how Daniel thinks if he would buy a cushion to home at Haga and Victoria looks clothes, or how Victoria and Daniel have been touched to meet the children with cancer. They have talked with Victoria and Daniel.
The same happened with Carl Philip and Sofia in Värmland and Dalarna. But with Madeleine that is not possible.

I really do not think it is any of the publics business to see what cushions prince Daniel buys.

For a monarchy to function well there needs to be some mystery and some distance. To keep the press away is not a bad tactic. QEII seldom gives an interview or comments in public for example. Queen Beatrix had the rule that her chit-chats with people are not allowed to be recorded by the press, neither are they to be quoted literally. The Swedish court has a different approach but the PR-disasters with esp. mr. Tennert show that at many times it is better not to comment at all.

After the christening, Chris took a taxi and left with HIS family, without Madeleine, to have a few glasses of wine. He spent the whole evening with his mother Eva O'Neill and sisters and brother in law Henry.

The christening was around noon, right? Since it is a christening and not a wedding I assume the party was over by the time it was evening. Unless Swedish christenings are wild events, which I doubt. That Chris took his family out in the evening (or before) doesn't seem so odd. In fact I am sure that many spouses would be thrilled if the other spouse would entertain the in-law house guests. I know that I would be.

The press is really idiotic in their campaign to portray Madeleine as the evil sister. I suppose it sells magazines. It also is an old topos, used many times before by the boulevard press. Most notable example being the dutiful QEII vs the spoiled Pss Margaret. A pity that people take it seriously, though it must be convenient for some who -in their fandom for the CPss of Sweden- think they should take every other member of the Bernadotte family down and seek fault and offense in any move these others make.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Not directed at D_o_M or anybody in particular:
The press is really idiotic in their campaign to portray Madeleine as the evil sister. I suppose it sells magazines. It also is an old topos, used many times before by the boulevard press. Most notable example being the dutiful QEII vs the spoiled Pss Margaret. A pity that people take it seriously though. I suppose that common sense doesn't suit those who in their fandom for the CPss of Sweden feel that they need to take every other member of the Bernadotte family down.

She's not being protrayed as the evil sister but as something between a glamour diva and a submissive wife dominated by Chris. I can mostly speak for german print tabloids, we have around 10-15 of them that appear weekly. Because of Silvia, the SRF is the monarchy that Germans rely mostly to, followed by the BRF. The rest is pretty stereotype after the ladies are too old for pregnancy now (MM lazy or esoteric, Letizia anorexic and fighting with her inlaws, Mary spending too much money, Maxima the happy glamour queen).

Because of the drama in the SRF and particulary Madeleine's life, the tabloids have had a field day for years now (the Jonas drama, running away, Chris' rude attitudes and rejecting the royal world) and both the SRF press department and Madeleine's lack of strategy in terms of what she wants to be, Mrs O Neill or a working Princess, and how she communicates it to the Swedes do not help the cause (imo both points are still the root of all problems). With press darling Sofia's arrival the whole Madeleine issue can be lifted to a whole new tabloid level (certainly they don't like each other) and the press makes most use of this because it sells.

And btw...Chris was not looking his best at the baby's christening. He looked bloated, puffy and tired...barely awake at times.

This is true and the pictures can easily be used to make him the bad or unpopular guy.

 

[Roslyn]

This is true and the pictures can easily be used to make him the bad or unpopular guy.

I don't understand why Chris looking bloated and puffy or tired would make him the bad or unpopular guy. I'm not saying it's not true, just that I don't understand why people would draw that conclusion. I agree he does look like that, but I think he's always looked a bit that way. It's possible he looks tired at the moment because he's been getting up at night to look after his baby.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I don't understand why Chris looking bloated and puffy or tired would make him the bad or unpopular guy. I'm not saying it's not true, just that I don't understand why people would draw that conclusion. I agree he does look like that, but I think he's always looked a bit that way. It's possible he looks tired at the moment because he's been getting up at night to look after his baby.

Well, looks do make a difference to get an impression of somebody. When you know nothing about Chris and look at him in an unflattering photo, possibly followed up by the pictures where he is giving the paparazzi the finger, you have at least a negative vibe about him, worst case you decide that he is sleazy and unappealing. And to be honest, very often it works this way even in private life, you get an impression and and the image sticks.