True Love Marriages

[Osipi]

Even if Phillipe had been in the same situation as Charles was in 1981 and had the niggling thought in the back of his head that he was getting older and as heir to the throne felt that he needed to marry and provide heirs, that wouldn't necessarily mean he'd propose to the first suitable woman that came along. He more or less was more focused on finding the right person for him.

No matter what the circumstances that brought them together as I know that even blind dates are successful at times, they're a happy, unified couple today. "True" love doesn't happen overnight and takes work.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Well, if Mathilde and Philippe are an arranged marriage, it seems to be a wildly successful arrangement indeed.

They are always touching and holding on to one another, same as Baudouin and Fabiola were. Mathilde and Philippe's were all over one another on the Palace balcony on the night of Philippe's accession to the Throne. It almost made me blush.

Maybe "arranged marriages" are not such a bad idea if those two couples are examples of it.

 

[Mbruno]

Mathilde WAS Belgian-born. Her father was of the untitled nobility and she was brought up in a castle, the family home in Belgium. She was interested in marriage to him, quite obviously!

Her family actually held a baronial title, but one which was only inherited by the firstborn. That is why Mathilde's uncle, I believe, was a baron, whereas her father was only a jonkheer (i.e. a member of the "untitled nobility"). After Mathilde's engagement, the whole family, including her father and siblings, were elevated by the King to the rank of count/countess with hereditary transmission of the title to all male and female descendants in male line if I am not mistaken.

The days of arranged marriages are certainly over in (royal) Western Europe and have been for quite a few decades. Though I am sure royal parents encourage suitable relationships while unsuitable ones are actively discouraged in some cases. Again not very different from the lives of the rest of us.

I am not so sure considering that Philippe/ Mathilde and, more recently, perhaps Guillaume/ Stéphanie bear the marks of arranged matches. I will wait until Princess Élisabeth gets married to make a final judgment, but it seems to me that the Belgian royal court is more conservative than other European courts when it comes to royal marriages.

 

[Rudolph]

But is a member of the untitled nobility a match for the King of Belgium.

I mean, if you're going to go down the arranged marriage road, why settle for a minor aristocrat, why not a princess?

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Considering some of the types of women(and men) who have been permitted to wed into European Royal families in the recent past you can bet Albert and Paola are relieved with their son and heir's choice of bride.

Not only is she a member of the ancient Polish nobility(Sapieha, much older and more aristocratic than the Saxe-Coburgs) through her mother, she is a lady who did not need to have her CV doctored or her past whitewashed.

And her family had their own crest of Arms and castle before the wedding.

I am certain the Belgian RF felt they had won the lottery with Mathilde d' Udekem d'Acoz and still feel that way

 

[Rudolph]

But she's still a princess by marriage, not birth.

I mean if the Belgium royal family is going to arrange a marriage, why not marry Philippe to some catholic princess, there are plenty of them in Europe.

To arrange a marriage in this day and age and 'settle' for an aristocrat doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Maybe because the marriage wasn't truly arranged at all.

Perhaps Mathilde was Philippe's actual choice, and the family realized it could be a heck of a lot worse and encouraged the relationship.

 

[Denville]

Her family actually held a baronial title, but one which was only inherited by the firstborn. That is why Mathilde's uncle, I believe, was a baron, w.

I think that continental titles are held by all members of teh family unlike in the UK where only the head of family holds the title and has noble rank

 

[Denville]

But is a member of the untitled nobility a match for the King of Belgium.

I mean, if you're going to go down the arranged marriage road, why settle for a minor aristocrat, why not a princess?

Problaby because they also wanted a Belgian, for patriotic reasons and I guess Philippe wanted a devout Catholic.
I Dont know whether it was arranged or not, it does not mean that it mgiht not be a success or that they couple would not indulge in PDA. However, PDAs are not any indication of a successful marriage.
They may well have been introduced and pushed towards marriage and it has grown into a loving relationship. Or they may just about get on OK and are good enough actors to look like they adore each other.

I am not so sure considering that Philippe/ Mathilde and, more recently, perhaps Guillaume/ Stéphanie bear the marks of arranged matches. I will wait until Princess Élisabeth gets married to make a final judgment, b.

I suspect that it still happens in Europe. It is not always such a disaster as Charles and Diana's marriage.

Even if Phillipe had been in the same situation as Charles was in 1981 and h
No matter what the circumstances that brought them together as I know that even blind dates are successful at times, they're a happy, unified couple today. "True" love doesn't happen overnight and takes work.

But is the point of this thread about whether a couple started their marriage iwth "emotional attachment" or is it something less, more of a ""lets see if we get on "kind of courtship. I thought it was. Of course there are marriages that started with a limited emotion, like Rainer and Grace, that turned into a deeper love as time went on..
But in this thread do we mean "marrage that started with love" or "marriage that started with less and has grown into love.." (Or marriage that was always for practical reasons and never developed any deeper feeling...

 

[Mirabel]

But is a member of the untitled nobility a match for the King of Belgium.

I mean, if you're going to go down the arranged marriage road, why settle for a minor aristocrat, why not a princess?

Well, you'd need someone who was willing, and also someone who wished to marry up.
A princess wouldn't really need to marry up, she could wed a man of her choice.

So you'd need a match that was respectable (which they got), attractive (which they got) and popular (which they got).

An appropriate choice from minor nobility for a crown prince who might not be the easiest mate... imo, this one rates a well-done!

 

[Countessmeout]

Maybe because the marriage wasn't truly arranged at all.

Perhaps Mathilde was Philippe's actual choice, and the family realized it could be a heck of a lot worse and encouraged the relationship.

Add to that even if arranged you have to consider how many other families are still willing to do so. Just because there are a number of Catholic princesses doesn't mean any if their families would agree to duchess things. Not that their daughters would either. Unlike some commoners who drew mot bring Cinderella, a princess doesn't need to msrry Prince Chsrming.

 

[Osipi]

But is the point of this thread about whether a couple started their marriage iwth "emotional attachment" or is it something less, more of a ""lets see if we get on "kind of courtship. I thought it was. Of course there are marriages that started with a limited emotion, like Rainer and Grace, that turned into a deeper love as time went on..
But in this thread do we mean "marrage that started with love" or "marriage that started with less and has grown into love.." (Or marriage that was always for practical reasons and never developed any deeper feeling...

I think its a general look at marriages that exist and the relationship within the marriage and how love presents itself. It could be instant love at first sight and can't ever see another for the rest of their lives. It could be a deepening sense of closeness that evolves over years of being together. It could be a lot of things and that's what makes the thread so interesting as no two couples are alike.

 

[Denville]

That was after years of marriage though, and Grace's tragic death.

I don't think she was desperately in love with him or anything, (or he with her for that matter) but they were compatible and it was the right time for both to marry. I do believe that love grew between them over the years.

I think she was attracted and fond of him, and he well Im sure he was delighted to get such a lovely girl who was Catholic, well off enough not to be dazzled by his wealth etc. But Im not sure he was anywhere close to in love. I think she did want to marry and thought perhaps that being a Princess would be more grand or more exciting than it turned out to be!
She was homesick I think, missed acting more than she thought she would and had problems having children and adjusting to European life. But yes she was of the generation that saw marriage as a career for a woman and knew that it woudn't be easy...
So she worked at it, and they loved each other, even though it might not be the ideal marriage.

 

[Mbruno]

I think that continental titles are held by all members of teh family unlike in the UK where only the head of family holds the title and has noble rank

In Belgium and the Netherlands, there are titles which are passed (from birth) to all descendants in male line and titles that are inherited by the firstborn only, like in the UK. In the latter case though, the younger siblings and their descendants are members of the untitled nobility, or sometimes hold a lower rank, e.g. if the family head is a count, the junior members of the family may be barons.

 

[Skippy]

well yes I am sure she was. he's the future King. But was it a love marriage? From what I've seen here, (and I dont know much), it does seem more like an arranged marriage. Why woudl he be stressing so much that he chose Mathlide himself? And just because Baudoin didn't want to give him a list of suitable women, doesn't mean that his own parents might not have pushed him, when he was getting older and saw he was still unmarried.

Perhaps because at the time he was perceived as so wooden in his demeanor and therefore very (bordering on extremely) boring that the general idea was "there is no woman on earth who could be interested in a man who behaves that stiff".
Maybe that's why he felt the need to point out that he found Mathilde himself.

Philippe appears to have been a man of "still waters run deep" at the time. I think he still is, but he has blossomed considerably since he became father and even more since he became King.
I see a mile of difference between Philippe on his engagement day and the Philippe we see now.

And no, not everyone changes that much over time.

 

[Countessmeout]

Philippe had dealt with rumours for years. He was in his late thirties and unmarried. He had little dating history and there seemed to be talk he was gay. His one girlfriend there are rumours his parents made him break up as she was a commoner. Now suddenly he reveals he is engaged to an unknown woman from a wealthy aristocratic family and now everyone claims it is an arranged marriage. I can understand him being defensive and wanting to defend his relationship and his fiancé. The last thing Mathilde needed going into the marriage was people thinking she only married him for his position. Philippe is a sensitive caring man and I can understand him wanting to protect her from such talk. Perhaps he was too intense in response but royals are human and sometimes not always in perfect control.

 

[Denville]

Well it seems to have worked out, but he was perhaps quite lucky. She's a lot younger, but at least she was old enough to be sensible and to know her own mind when she married him. It may have been a sort of arranged match that grew inot love, they often do.. or they may be OK but are alble to keep any private troubles to themselves...

 

[Doctor Zhivago]

Daniel and Victoria (Sweden)

Harald and Sonja (Norway)

Frederik and Mary (Denmark)

 

[Marengo]

I am not so sure considering that Philippe/ Mathilde and, more recently, perhaps Guillaume/ Stéphanie bear the marks of arranged matches. I will wait until Princess Élisabeth gets married to make a final judgment, but it seems to me that the Belgian royal court is more conservative than other European courts when it comes to royal marriages.

The Belgian artistocracy for the vast majority still marries with people from the aristocracy (from Belgium or other catholic countries). For example: all Mathilde's siblings, paternal uncles and cousins actually married a member of the nobility. Most siblings of Stéphanie of Luxembourg also married a member of the nobility; all her uncles and aunts did. 14 of her 16 of her Lannoy 1st cousins married to members of the nobility, the 2 who did not are unmarried.

This does not mean that all these marriages are arranged of course, but they are certainly being encouraged and facilitated. The noble association(s) in Belgium organises a lot of events where people of the right age can meet. They often live in the same areas, go to the same schools, to the same clubs etc. I find it rather likely that Elisabeth and siblings will come home with an aristocrat eventually.

 

[Denville]

People tend to marry within thier own class and I think that some foreign royal families tend to interpret that as very much they SHOULD marry within their own class. So the Belgian RF is going to marry other royals or at least Nobility. THe Britsih have been a bit more flexible with for example Kate being middle class...But after the disasters of Diana and fergie who were upper and I suppose were felt to be suitable becauase of being upper class, but who turned out to be wrong in terms of fitting in and being happy on a personal level, I think that the BRF have now opted for "marry somoene you love and know very well".. but the Belgians are still more conservative.

 

[Denville]

I personally think that Carl Gustaf and Silvia seem to be more in love now than before the scandal book I really love it how they interact with each other!

More likely they are trying to look like a devoted united couple because there has been a scandalous revelation..

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] But after the disasters of Diana and fergie who were upper and I suppose were felt to be suitable becauase of being upper class [...]

Sarah Ferguson does not file under upper class, I think. She had a respectable background but "upper class", no.

 

[Denville]

yes she was.... Just she wasn't well off, or well behaved or discreet

 

[Marc23]

Sarah Ferguson does not file under upper class, I think. She had a respectable background but "upper class", no.

Although a commoner, she was well connected.

She had some royal connections. Her grandmother Marion, Lady Elmhirst being first cousin of the Queen Elizabeth's aunt Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.

 

[Marc23]

But is a member of the untitled nobility a match for the King of Belgium.

I mean, if you're going to go down the arranged marriage road, why settle for a minor aristocrat, why not a princess?

Well,considering how things go today, a girl from very old aristocratic family whose mother is Countess and grandmother a Princess distantly related to all royal families of Europe is not bad at all.

 

[Marc23]

Not only is she a member of the ancient Polish nobility(Sapieha, much older and more aristocratic than the Saxe-Coburgs)

Well, this is not true. The families can't be even compared based on this. Let's get facts straight:

Saxe-Coburgs belong to Wettin dynasty whose first known ancestor Count Dietrich von Liesgau died before year of 976, in 10th century, while first known Sapieha ancestor appeared in 15th century, whole 5 centuries later when first known ancestor of d'Udekem family was also documented.

So, Sapeha and d'Udekem family both appeared in 15th century while Saxe-Coburg(Wettin) dynasty appeared 5 centuries earlier in 10th century.

 

[Denville]

Although a commoner, she was well connected.

She had some royal connections. Her grandmother Marion, Lady Elmhirst being first cousin of the Queen Elizabeth's aunt Alice, Duchess of Gloucester.

So was Diana a commoner. Fergie's family had no title but she's related to various titled people.. She's landed gentry...

 

[Mbruno]

Well, this is not true. The families can't be even compared based on this. Let's get facts straight:

Saxe-Coburgs belong to Wettin dynasty whose first known ancestor Count Dietrich von Liesgau died before year of 976, in 10th century, while first known Sapieha ancestor appeared in 15th century, whole 5 centuries later when first known ancestor of d'Udekem family was also documented.

So, Sapeha and d'Udekem family both appeared in 15th century while Saxe-Coburg(Wettin) dynasty appeared 5 centuries earlier in 10th century.

In any case, both the Sapieha, the Komorowskis (circa the 14th century ?) and the d'Udekem are very old families and Mathilde shouldn't be simply dismissed as "minor nobility". She is not royal by birth for sure, but neither were Paola or Fabiola. The last royal-born queen consort in Belgium was Astrid of Sweden.

By modern European standards, where there are no more inter-dynastic marriages and marriages to commoners are the norm, Mathilde d'Udekem, Stéphanie de Lannoy, or Lady Diana Spencer are pretty much close to the "best" a crown prince can get in terms of his consort's family background.

 

[Denville]

There are still royals who marry other royals, though.
But it seems as if some of the Belgian or Lux royals have married into the Non Reigning Catholic dynasties...
Mathild is like Diana or Paola, upper class with high connextions I assume and that's mostly what modern royals tend to go for.

 

[Mbruno]

I must confess I am one of those people who regret that William didn't marry Madeleine of Sweden, which would have been the "right thing to do" in the old days of royalty, but I guess, in this day and age, people have to marry for love. I'm just not so sure William and Kate were a true love match, or a match that ultimately was pushed by the circumstances.

On your point that there are royals who still marry other dynasts, I think royal families nowadays don't really try very hard to see that happening. For example, much has been said on gossip magazines about how Queen Elizabeth really thought William and Madeleine would be a good match, but Madeleine once said in an interview that she had never been actually even introduced to either William or Harry.