Titles of the Swedish RF and Changes 2019

[An Ard Ri]

I was always amazed that the children of Madeleine were styled HRH and given the title of Prince/Princess of Sweden seeing as they are not based in Sweden nor have been for some time.Prince or Princess Princess of Bernadotte might have been and option or Count/Countess of Bernadotte.

This deceision will possibly affect the Royal Coats of Arms issued for the children of both Carl Phillip/Madeleine as they're no longer HRH Princess/Princess of Sweden.

Princess Leonore
26 February 2014 - 6 October 2019: Her Royal Highness Princess Leonore Lilian Maria, Duchess of Gotland

7 October 2019 onwards : Princess Leonore Lilian Maria, Duchess of Gotland.

 

[theroyalfly]

It was strange that the King granted Madeleine's children of title/style and dukedom in the first place and now stripping them off of the HRH style including Carl-Philip's children. I wonder what prompted him to change his mind.

I mean, he could have let this thing go and leave it to the next generation. Either way, when Victoria succeeds, both Carl-Philip and Madeleine's family will no longer be part of the Royal House.

I'm feeling more bitter about Carl-Philip's children since he is a direct male descendant.

But yes, maybe not stripping them off of HRH but reducing it to HH would be better.

Sad.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It was strange that the King granted her grandchildren of the title/style and dukedom in the first place and now stripping them off of the HRH style. I wonder what prompted him to change his mind.

I mean, he could have let this thing go and leave it to the next generation. Either way, when Victoria succeeds, both Carl-Philip and Madeleine's family will no longer be part of the Royal House.

But yes, maybe not stripping them off of HRH but reducing it to HH would be better.

Possibly the policy was followed, not knowing there would be such fruitful marriages. Look at Luxembourg, where the eldest child of the Grand-Duke's second child still is the future heiress. Once the King applied this policy, naturally he did not want to treat his grandchildren in A- and B-category, but now we have advanced a few years, naturally the King thought it was wise to review the arrangements.

 

[JR76]

They just enjoy the personal title of prince without being a Prince of the Royal House.

The Swedes lack the possibility to use a dynastical, eventually hereditary title like Count of Nassau (Luxembourg), Count of Orange-Nassau (Netherlands), Count de Monpezat, Count of Rosenborg, Count of Federiksborg (Denmark).

There could be the possibility to use the title of Prince Bernadotte. According to the lawyers of Count Sigvard Bernadotte and some other legal experts Jean Baptiste Bernadotte formally never relinquished that title since the agreed terms of him doing so was never fulfilled by the Swedish government.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I really don't find this all that strange.

When Leonore was born she was only the second child of her generation in the line of succession after Estelle and there was no guarantee Victoria and Daniel would have anymore children. I'm sure Carl Gustaf's experience influenced Leonore being an HRH. And it would have been awkward for Leonore's siblings to not be HRH if she was and even more strange for Carl Philip's children given they are higher in the succession.

As for why the change now rather than leaving it to Victoria--well the children are young, they don't really know they have lost something with the HRH being stripped from them. Better now than when they are teenagers or adults.

 

[JR76]

I really don't find this all that strange.

When Leonore was born she was only the second child of her generation in the line of succession after Estelle and there was no guarantee Victoria and Daniel would have anymore children. I'm sure Carl Gustaf's experience influenced Leonore being an HRH.

As for why the change now rather than leaving it to Victoria--well the children are young, they don't really know they have lost something with the HRH being stripped from them. Better now than when they are teenagers or adults.

Madeleine herself said in the Mama interview that her children had no idea about them being royal and having titles yet so I'd say the timing is perfect.
Another aspect of why this happens now could be to forestall the result of the inquiry by the Constitutional assembly regarding the Royal family - its finances and organisation that apparently is almost finished now.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

I hope the Court can find a prudent and more courteous way and treat them alike any children of a Swedish Greve or Friherre or otherwise titled nobleman... It It is would be strange to see a Greve Wachtmeister af Johannishus or a Friherre Silfverskiöld pass their nobility to a new male line generation but not the royal born Carl Philip.

Why should CP's children be treated any different than Madeleine's children?

 

[WillVictoria]

It was strange that the King granted Madeleine's children of title/style and dukedom in the first place and now stripping them off of the HRH style including Carl-Philip's children. I wonder what prompted him to change his mind.

I mean, he could have let this thing go and leave it to the next generation. Either way, when Victoria succeeds, both Carl-Philip and Madeleine's family will no longer be part of the Royal House.

I'm feeling more bitter about Carl-Philip's children since he is a direct male descendant.

But yes, maybe not stripping them off of HRH but reducing it to HH would be better.

Sad.

To understand that decision you need to put yourself in the mindset of CGXVI circa February 2014, when Leonore was born.

• Estelle was the only child of her generation and there was no guarantee of siblings
• Carl Philip and Sofia were not yet engaged and even then there was a possibility they wouldn't have kids
• Leading to the non-zero probability that Leonore might be her generation's long-term spare. In this alternate reality (where Estelle is an only child and CP is childless) Leonore likely has modest royal duties serving a Carl Philip role and, if something happened to Estelle or she didn't have children, a potential future Queen

Obviously, this didn't turn out to be true and any role Leonore might have had got transferred to Oscar the moment he was born. For me, the question isn't why Leonore got a title, or even why Nicolas did (as he was born before CP Victoria's second pregnancy was announced and they probably wanted to be sure everything was ok with the baby before transferring the "spare" expectations from Leonore to her cousin), but why Alexander, and subsequently Gabriel and Adrienne did.

I think the issue is they set a precedent from Leonore (under completely different circumstances) and didn't want any of the grandkids to be titled differently. What would have made more sense is to take the HRH from Leonore and Nicolas in the gap between Oscar and Alexander's birth as a signifier that Oscar's birth meant his cousins weren't needed as spares, and by extension had no need for an HRH or an expectation of official duties.

 

[theroyalfly]

Possibly the policy was followed, not knowing there would be such fruitful marriages. Look at Luxembourg, where the eldest child of the Grand-Duke's second child still is the future heiress. Once the King applied this policy, naturally he did not want to treat his grandchildren in A- and B-category, but now we have advanced a few years, naturally the King thought it was wise to review the arrangements.

Luxembourg can be a tricky example since they also follow stricter rule and distinction. Only the children of the Hereditary Grand Duke is eligible of the HRH Prince/Princess of Luxembourg style and title. Princess Amalia is not a Princess of Luxembourg but a HRH Princess of Nassau and Bourbon-Parma.

Yeah it could be because of that. Maybe the King didn't like what happened on his generation when all of her sisters were stripped of HRH styles (exluding Princess Birgitte) and his uncles and grand-uncles too.

But this is just too much. I would understand Madeleine's children be stripped off of everything since she's not a male-line descendant and married a commoner but Carl-Philip? How?

 

[principessa]

I guess that the stripping of titles for Leonore, Nicolas and Adrienne is now also a sign for the remaining in the US and not a moving back to Sweden.

 

[WillVictoria]

Luxembourg can be a tricky example since they also follow stricter rule and distinction. Only the children of the Hereditary Grand Duke is eligible of the HRH Prince/Princess of Luxembourg style and title. Princess Amalia is not a Princess of Luxembourg but a HRH Princess of Nassau and Bourbon-Parma.

Yeah it could be because of that. Maybe the King didn't like what happened on his generation when all of her sisters were stripped of HRH styles (exluding Princess Birgitte) and his uncles and grand-uncles too.

But this is just too much. I would understand Madeleine's children be stripped off of everything since she's not a male-line descendant and married a commoner but Carl-Philip? How?

The answer, besides the obvious one about the parliamentary inquiry, is probably to spare Alexander and Gabriel what has happened to Beatrice and Eugenie in the UK (and what might end up happening with Joachim's kids in Denmark).
While we know not everyone with an HRH is on the government's dime, most people don't. The York girls are stuck in a no-win scenario, where no-one is really clamoring for them as full-time royals, but when they try to live private lives they're criticized for being lazy taxpayer leeches or abusing their title for cushy jobs.

Better to remove the HRH, and by extension, the pressure, off them, while they're too young to know then have some Swedish tabloid headlines in thirty years like "Work-shy HRH Prince Alexander on 3rd holiday of the month" or "Prince Gabriel joins the board of company accused of sweat-shop labor"

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Why should CP's children be treated any different than Madeleine's children?

Because also in Sweden nobility is passed in the male lineage. Carl Philip is the unbroken legal male agnate in the procreation, directly from the first Bernadotte King. Note that, as such, he was entitled to the wealth of the Galliera Foundation (artworks, jewels, capital) but that he and his father agreed in changing the statutes so that no longer he, the future most senior legal male agnate of the House of Bernadotte, but the bearer of the crown would be the beneficient. That was a very kind and generous geste of the Prince, speaking volumes for his loyalty and devotion to his sister and the Royal House. But still he is, from father to son, from Bernadotte to Bernadotte, the new generation, when we apply the historic standard followed by any Swedish noble titled family

 

[theroyalfly]

While we know not everyone with an HRH is on the government's dime, most people don't. The York girls are stuck in a no-win scenario, where no-one is really clamoring for them as full-time royals, but when they try to live private lives they're criticized for being lazy taxpayer leeches or abusing their title for cushy jobs.

Better to remove the HRH, and by extension, the pressure, off them, while they're too young to know then have some Swedish tabloid headlines in thirty years like "Work-shy HRH Prince Alexander on 3rd holiday of the month" or "Prince Gabriel, joins the board of company accused of sweat-shop labor"

Thank you for calming me up. I was really bitter about Carl-Philip's children.

I understand the pressure that comes with the HRH style.

Because also in Sweden nobility is passed in the male lineage. Carl Philip is the unbroken legal male agnate in the procreation, directly from the first Bernadotte King. Note that, as such, he was entitled to the wealth of the Galliera Foundation (artworks, jewels, capital) but that he and his father agreed in changing the statutes so that no longer he, the future most senior legal male agnate of the House of Bernadotte, but the bearer of the crown would be the beneficient. That was a very kind and generous geste of the Prince, speaking volumes for his loyalty and devotion to his sister and the Royal House. But still he is, from father to son, from Bernadotte to Bernadotte, the new generation, when we apply the historic standard followed by any Swedish noble titled family

This makes me sadder. Carl-Philip deserves better.

 

[norwegianne]

But the core ideal of Sweden today is equality between the sexes. Any differential treatment between CP and Madeleine’s children would, ultimately, not play out well in the press or with the people. I was surprised when Madeleine’s children received titles, because in Norway, the king’s oldest grandchild - despite being in line to the throne - carries her father’s last name. But I was informed when Leonore was born that it would be seen as odd to differentiate Madeleine’s children from the potential offspring of Carl Philip.

And it well might be that the Swedish nobility may follow suit, in the long run.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Because also in Sweden nobility is passed in the male lineage. Carl Philip is the unbroken legal male agnate in the procreation, directly from the first Bernadotte King. Note that, as such, he was entitled to the wealth of the Galliera Foundation (artworks, jewels, capital) but that he and his father agreed in changing the statutes so that no longer he, the future most senior legal male agnate of the House of Bernadotte, but the bearer of the crown would be the beneficient. That was a very kind and generous geste of the Prince, speaking volumes for his loyalty and devotion to his sister and the Royal House. But still he is, from father to son, from Bernadotte to Bernadotte, the new generation, when we apply the historic standard followed by any Swedish noble titled family

Sweden relinquished agnatic primogeniture in 1980. So CP's "unbroken male lineage" doesn't really hold any kind of official value anymore and as such, giving him preferential treatment over his sister on the basis of his sex would seem absolutely absurd. Especially in a forward-thinking country like Sweden. As CP isn't a part of the Swedish nobility, whether or not nobility is passed in the male lineage is completely irrelevant. It's nothing new that Swedish royal dukedoms are life dukedoms.

"Kind and generous" of him ? With that logic, I guess it was also very kind and generous of the King's four sisters to accept that they were deemed unusable because of their gender without making any fuss about it.

This makes me sadder. Carl-Philip deserves better.

Do you also feel sad about all the firstborn women who were denied their birthright on the basis of their sex?

 

[temhbobo]

Hi all. Like everyone else, i am trying to digest all of this today. Madeline and Carl Philip seem pleased to have their children not be involved in public duties. That affords them the freedom to do and be whatever they want. I guess if the King was going to do it, it would be best to do it now while they are young. They really won't know the difference. And it won't affect Carl Philip, Sofia or Madeline and their work/charities. As always, they will mainly work at the discretion of the King.

I do have one question about Carl Philip's side of the family. What happens to Prince Alexander's claim to Stenhammer? As he does get to keep his duke title, will he still have the option as the Duke of Sodermanland to live in the castle or the property there? I guess it would then revert to the main line when he dies? How does that work exactly or maybe we are in uncharted waters here.

 

[Mari-Anne]

I find it strange that the king decided at the time of births that the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are part of The Royal House and now in October 2019 they are no longer suddenly included. At least the children are young enough not to know the difference. Its been clear that Victoria and her children have been in the foreground anyway, whereas her younger siblings and their children in backround.

I hope Leonore, Nicolas, Alexander, Gabriel and Adrienne can now be free to choose their own path and career.

I just hope that next announcement won't say that Carl Philip, Sofia and Madeleine are no longer expected to perform duties because four working royals are enough. That would be a shame and reason to unfollow the Swedis royal family.

Lovely responses from Madeleine and Carl Philip. Very dignified. Wishing them all the best.

 

[Princess]

What I really do not understand is this harping on MALE descendants, especially not when it comes to Sweden and the swedisch way of life (in regard of what I had learned about equality).

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Because also in Sweden nobility is passed in the male lineage. Carl Philip is the unbroken legal male agnate in the procreation, directly from the first Bernadotte King. Note that, as such, he was entitled to the wealth of the Galliera Foundation (artworks, jewels, capital) but that he and his father agreed in changing the statutes so that no longer he, the future most senior legal male agnate of the House of Bernadotte, but the bearer of the crown would be the beneficient. That was a very kind and generous geste of the Prince, speaking volumes for his loyalty and devotion to his sister and the Royal House. But still he is, from father to son, from Bernadotte to Bernadotte, the new generation, when we apply the historic standard followed by any Swedish noble titled family

It would have been more strange to have the wealth leave the monarchy and go to a younger sibling where it would move further and further away from the King/Queen.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Are precipitants of The Royal Order of the Seraphim entitled to be addressed as His/Her Excellency?

 

[Princess B]

The kings decision is forward thinking, but I would’ve preferred these changes were never made in this reign.
Once Victoria was Queen, she could’ve streamlined the royal house.
I understand why Leonore was made a Princess, and thereafter it wouldn’t have been fair to the kings other grandchildren to not be HRH Prince/Princess.
Even without the HRH, they are still Prince and Princess - how is life going to be easier?
As regards to Carl Philip being the senior most fanatic member of the house of Bernadotte (after his father), and not being able to pass on his titles to his children - they’re trying to be equal. If Madeleine can’t, Carl Philip can’t.
In due course his heir will be the senior most agnatic member of the house of Bernadotte and nothing can change that

 

[Rudolph]

Going back to my previous question, what’s the substantive difference between a Prince of Sweden and just a Prince?

Do the titles carry any privileges or benefits?

 

[An Ard Ri]

It distinguishes between members of the Royal House and those of the Royal Family.

Prince of Sweden =HRH

Prince X has no style

 

[Mbruno]

It seems that, by losing their HRH style, the children are officially no longer "prince/princess of Sweden" and will only retain the prefix of prince/princess before their names as a matter of courtesy, like the King's sisters who married unequally. CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren on the other hand will be untitled.


There is still a legal confusion, however, about the line od succession, which I hope the Court will clarify. The Act of Succession says that "[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The right of succession to the throne of Sweden is vested in the male and female descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf," CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren will stiil be "male and female descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf" and, accordingly, my understanding is that they will still be in the line of succession even if they are untitled. Removing their succession rights would require an amendment to the Act of Succession, which could only be enacted in accordance with the special procedure laid out in the Instrument of Government.
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Act of Sucession, however, lists several situations that cause someone in the line of succession to lose his/her succession rights, for example, not professing the Lutheran faith as adopted by the Church of Sweden, marrying without the consent of the Swedish government upon application by the King, or becoming the head of a foreign State without approval of the King and the Parliament of Sweden, The problem is that all the aforementioned conditions apply specifically in the text to "princes and princesses of the Royal House".[/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Prior to today's announcement, there was an assumption that "princes and princesses of the Royal House" included in theory all persons in the line of succession , but that does not seem to be the case now as, according to the official statement by the Court, CP's and Madeleine's children are no longer princes/princesses of the Royal House, but remain nonetheless in the line of succession. If we now interpret the Act of Succession literally then, the conclusion is that they are now free to change their religious denomination, marry without consent, or become another country's sovereign without consent and still retain their right of succession to the Swedish throne, whereas, for Estelle and Oscar, all the former restrictions still apply.
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]So, let's assume an unlikely scenario where Estelle and Oscar for some reason are disqualified from the succession together with their descendants, for example for marrying without consent, and Alexander is now direct in line to the throne after his father, but Alexander himself also married without consent or converted to Roman Catholicism. Could the restrictions in the Act of Succession apply retroactively to him then (since they didn't apply before when he was no longer a prince of the Royal House) ?
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]As I said, it looks very confusing to me because titles have been separated from succession rights (which is OK), but certain important rules affecting the succession seem to apply to titled persons only.
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[norwegianne]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]The Act of Sucession, however, lists several situations that cause someone in the line of succession to lose his/her succession rights, for example, not professing the Lutheran faith as adopted by the Church of Sweden, marrying without the consent of the Swedish government upon application by the King, or becoming the head of a foreign State without approval of the King and the Parliament of Sweden, The problem is that all the aforementioned conditions apply specifically in the text to "princes and princesses of the Royal House".[/FONT]

It's rather odd, because while most of the Act of Succession specifies by "Prince and princesses of the royal house" §4 has the additional paragraph: "Den av kungl. familjen som ej sig till samma lära bekänner, vare från all successionsrätt utesluten." / He or she of the royal family, who does not confess to the same faith, will be excluded from all succession rights.

But the sentence about being raised in the realm just covers "princes and princesses of the royal house." and permission of marriage is the same.

So, as long as the descendant with no title presumably follows the Lutheran faith he or she will remain in the line of the Swedish succession?

 

[Mbruno]

In due course his heir will be the senior most agnatic member of the house of Bernadotte and nothing can change that

As the current Duke of Gloucester is the most senior agnatic member of the House of Windsor and nobody in the UK cares.



We may be attached to tradition, but being the most senior agnate is only relevant when agnatic succession is used, which is no longer the case either in Sweden or the UK.

It's rather odd, because while most of the Act of Succession specifies by "Prince and princesses of the royal house" §4 has the additional paragraph: "Den av kungl. familjen som ej sig till samma lära bekänner, vare från all successionsrätt utesluten." / He or she of the royal family, who does not confess to the same faith, will be excluded from all succession rights.

But the sentence about being raised in the realm just covers "princes and princesses of the royal house." and permission of marriage is the same.

That is right, thanks ! I hadn't noticed that the provision about professing the pure Evangelical faith applied to any member of the Royal Family and not only to "princes and princesses of the Royal House". So I stand corrected in that particular point. My questions are still valid though as far as marriage without consent is concerned for example.

 

[tommy100]

I think this is a super wise decision, though I am surprised it has been done as I thought there was no way of it happening now Oscar is 3. However, thinking about it I guess these things probably take time to work through, discussions within the family, staff and advisors and the government.

It makes sense to relieve the pressure off the grandchildren so they can pursue what future they wish. Realistically with so many grandchildren there was never going to be a way for so many of them to work "officially" for the RF in the future.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I think this was a sensible decision that should have been made when Princess Leonor was born, since she's the eldest grandchild that has been affected by these laws. I've always thought that giving *all* Carl Philip and Madeleine's children their own dukedom (I know this won't be changed by the laws) was a bit much; so I'm pleased to see Carl Gustaf has taken the right approach.
I liked the photo of Victoria, Estelle and Carl Gustaf too.

 

[ReeceT21]

Well, this was interesting news to wake up to! I do think it is the right decision and hopefully the questions around the succession requirements will be answered with time.

Like others, I long suspected they'd change the rules so that Carl-Philips' grandchildren would not hold titles. They couldn't really let his descendants continue to hold royal titles in perpetuity simply because they are the agnatic heirs. The real shame here, as in Norway, is that the King can't create new titles. Being able to issue titles like Count of Monpezat/Orange-Nassau is such a tidy, easy way to deal with this issue. It would be nice for Sweden to create a one-off noble title for these descendants to bear but I doubt their parliament is overly concerned with whether the monarch's future great-greatchildren are titled or not.

The only really shocking bit is that the Princely titles won't be shared by spouses. It is odd to think in 30 years we'll be talking about Prince Alexander, Duke of Sodermanland and his wife Mrs. _____ Bernadotte (presumably). But it is another good way to cut down on the amount of Princes and Princesses in the country. I wonder if we'll see something similar in other families moving forward. Will Sverre Magnus' wife not be a Princess either? It is definitely a knee jerk reaction that the wife of a Prince/daughter-in-law of a King not to have a title but plenty of sons-in-law to monarchs are untitled so it is equitable. I could see Denmark having Joachim's daughters-in-law simply be titled as Countesses of Monpezat (if titled at all) rather than Princesses. Belgium could also consider it in the future considering all four of Philippe's children will pass on royal titles to their children and that will be a LOT of Princes/Princesses within a couple of generations.

 

[Mbruno]

I think this was a sensible decision that should have been made when Princess Leonor was born, since she's the eldest grandchild that has been affected by these laws. I've always thought that giving *all* Carl Philip and Madeleine's children their own dukedom (I know this won't be changed by the laws) was a bit much; so I'm pleased to see Carl Gustaf has taken the right approach.
I liked the photo of Victoria, Estelle and Carl Gustaf too.

The duchies were not taken away because the King probably thought it would be unfair to the children and especially to the involved provinces. Going forward, Oscar ‘s children for example probably won’t get any duchy and won’t be princes either.