Titles of the Belgian Royal Family 1: Ending Aug.2023

[Tatiana Maria]

BTW did Lorenz title get incorperated in the Belgian nobility, as was the case for AD Rudolph who legally is Prince von Habsburg in Belgium?

The archducal title has been included in Belgian legal documents, but to my knowledge, has not been incorporated into the Belgian nobility.

Would it be correct to style Elisabetta 'HI&RH Archduchess of Austria-Este' seeing as she was not made a Princess of Belgium?

Prince Amedeo himself is a Royal (not Imperial and Royal) Highness, officially speaking.

De Belgische Monarchie: Home - Actualités - Agenda - Huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo met Juffrouw Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein
La Monarchie belge: Accueil - Actueel - Agenda - Fiançailles de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo avec Mademoiselle Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

Mathilde, Lorenz and Claire were all created prince(ss) in their own right. This did not happen with Elisabetta. But she can still use her husbands titles, like many wives do (like Princess Alexandre / Lea Wolman).

Of course if she will actually use that name/title is unknown. Neither has the court given any clarity on the matter.

Princess Alexandre was created a princess, not ad personam but as an automatic consequence of marriage: A royal decree of March 14, 1891 conferred the title Princess of Belgium on all wives of royal princes. It was only repealed nine months after the marriage of Prince and Princess Alexandre.

Royal Titles in Belgium - Titres Royaux en Belgique

When his father Prince Lorenz married the King's Niece , Philippe and Laurent were still unmarried and Astrid was N° 2 , it was King Baudouin's will.

Princess Astrid and her children had no rights to the throne before the change to equal primogeniture.

 

[Mbruno]

King Albert Ii said in his interview with Pascal Vrebos that Amadeo bought a house , work and lives in Belgium.
He is independant , free has nothing to do with the Royal Donation and will never move to his parent's house.

That seems the right thing to do IMHO. Let's hope Amedeo's siblings and Laurent's children follow his example in the future.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Does anyone else find it odd that a year after the wedding the matter has been clarified regarding Elisabetta's title,most other royal houses would have released this information before hand.

 

[maria-olivia]

I am surprised this was not said one year ago !

We had no Government last year at the time of the wedding.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The Belgian Monarchy site has no information regarding the Belgian line of succession,well on the English version.

 

[eya]

I don't understand why all this discussion a year ago? I guess now discovered the journalist? Little late imagine.

 

[*Mara*]

Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********


And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

 

[Marengo]

Thanks for the update Mara! Quite a sensible move by the king. Still, if all his grandchildren will become princes of Belgium it will mean that under these laws there will be a few dozen of princes of Belgium around 3 decades from now: 12 grandchildren of Albert & spouses makes 24 + the eventual grandchildren of Filip + Lorenz, Astrid, Laurent and Claire.

Did they decide on the titles for grandchildren of Laurent and Astrid? I suppose Astrids grandchildren can use the Habsburg tites but what about Laurents grandchildren? Plain Mr/Miss De Belgique?

 

[Stefan]

Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********


And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Interesting. So it is so that in chldren and grandchildren of a monarch will be Priince/Princess of Belgium like in the Uk. Also interesting that permision for Amedeo's marriage was granted retroactiv and it had not be to done before the marriage took place.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Interesting indeed,we'll have to wait some time to see how Laurent's grandchildren will be styled!

 

[Mbruno]

Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.

That was long overdue. If King Baudouin's previous decree were still in force, all legitimate descendants of King Albert II would be princes of Belgium and the number of HRHs would grow exponentially over the next generations.

I hope Sweden does something similar soon so that CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren are not HRHs either.

And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Maybe now that his children will no longer be titled anyway, Amedeo doesn't see the need to renounce his succession rights anymore.

 

[Mbruno]

Interesting indeed,we'll have to wait some time to see how Laurent's grandchildren will be styled!

The same rule that applies to Astrid applies to Laurent, i.e. his children, as grandchildren of King Albert II, remain HRHs, whereas his grandchildren (i.e Albert's great-grandchildren) will be untitled.

The royal decree actually mentions that.

Art. 2. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe de Sa Majesté le Roi Albert II portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.

The general rule (Art 1) is, I think, that now only children and grandchildren of the King, or children or grandchildren of the Heir Apparent, plus the people in Art 2 and King Albert's sisters will be HRHs.

Article 1er. Dans les actes publics et privés qui les concernent, les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Roi ainsi que les Princes et les Princesses, enfants et petits-enfants, issus de la descendance directe du Prince héritier ou de la Princesse héritière portent le titre de Prince ou de Princesse de Belgique à la suite de leur prénom et, pour autant qu'ils les portent, de leur nom de famille et de leur titre dynastique et avant les autres titres qui leur reviennent de droit par leur ascendance. Leur prénom est précédé par le prédicat Son Altesse Royale.

If I understand it correctly also, the above-referenced persons will be called, in that order:

HRH [First Name, e.g. Élisabeth Thérèse Marie Hélène] [Family Name, if used] [Dynastic Title if any, e.g. Duchess of Brabant], Prince/Princess of Belgium, [Other titles by ancestry, if any, e.g. Archduke of Austria-Este in the case of Princess Astrid's children]

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It has similarities to the British system but is more generous than that.
It has similarities to the Dutch system but is less generous than that.

NL - 2002
The children of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau

BE - 2015
The children and the grandchildren of the King or the Heir have the title HRH Prince (Princess) of Belgium

In both NL and BE: all who fall outside this circle keep their already given title as a personal and non-hereditary title.

In both NL and BE: the King can create new nobility (unlike Sweden and Norway, for an example). In the Netherlands the children born to the younger princes (Friso and Constantijn) were elevated into the hereditary nobility with the title Graaf (Gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. In Denmark Queen Margrethe elevated her children and grandchildren into the hereditary nobility with the title Greve (Komtesse) af Monpezat. Belgium still has an active ennoblement policy. It would not surprise me when King Philippe or Queen Elisabeth elevate their cousins into the hereditary nobility as well.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] Maybe now that his children will no longer be titled anyway, Amedeo doesn't see the need to renounce his succession rights anymore.

These titles only cover the titles of the Belgian Royal House. Prince Amedeo also belongs to the Austrian Imperial House, the Hungarian Royal House, to the Ducal House of Modena and the dynasty Austria-Este. The titles derived from all this are not affected as the Belgian Royal House has no jurisdiction over these titles.

He will always remain Archduke Amedeo of Austria-Este, Prince Imperial of Austria, Prince Royal of Hungary, (future) Duke of Modena

 

[Tilia C.]

That decree is a smart move, imo. The decree is gender neutral but keeps the number of titled family member within a sensible limit.

Was it just up to the king to issue the decree, or was it done with the approval or cooperation of the government? I keep forgetting: was there a government at the time of Amedeo's wedding? If not, I wonder if that has something to do with him not 'officially' asking approval for his marriage at the time. Maybe the king wanted to sort out the future title questions first. He could have asked Amedeo to wait with the officially asking consent till the matter of the decree was solved.

Btw, I assume that the Swedish King is aiming at a similar concept. Only he does it by conferring individual titles instead of issuing a decree. I really doubt the the grandchildren of CP and Madeleine will get HRH and duchies as well.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Could the king restore the Hainaut/Flanders titles?

 

[Mbruno]

That decree is a smart move, imo. The decree is gender neutral but keeps the number of titled family member within a sensible limit.

Was it just up to the king to issue the decree, or was it done with the approval or cooperation of the government?.

All Belgian royal decrees are issued on the advice of government ministers and are countersigned by one or more ministers who take responsibility for the content of the decree (the King himself is not responsible). In this particular case, the decree was issued on the advice of the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs and countersigned by both.

PHILIPPE, Roi des Belges,
A tous, présents et à venir, Salut.
[...]
Sur la proposition du Premier Ministre et du Ministre des Affaires étrangères,
Nous avons arrêté et arrêtons :
Article 1er.
[....]
Art. 7. Le Premier Ministre et le Ministre ayant les Affaires étrangères dans ses attributions sont chargés, chacun en ce qui le concerne, de l'exécution du présent arrêté.
Donné à Bruxelles, le 12 novembre 2015.
PHILIPPE
Par le Roi :
Le Premier Ministre,
Ch. MICHEL
Le Ministre des Affaires étrangères,
D. REYNDERS

Could the king restore the Hainaut/Flanders titles?

King Albert II issued another decree in 2001 granting the title of Duke or Duchess of Brabant to the eldest child of the monarch, but abolishing the title of Count of Hainaut for the Duke of Brabant's eldest son. That decree is still in force and was not repealed by King Philippe's decree.

 

[Al_bina]

... [snipped] And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.
Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

[my bolding]
Thanks for the update!
Prince Amedeo's belated request is puzzling, indeed. Upon reading your post, my first question was "What exactly prevented him from asking for a formal marriage consent earlier?"

 

[Cris M]

Btw, I assume that the Swedish King is aiming at a similar concept. Only he does it by conferring individual titles instead of issuing a decree. I really doubt the the grandchildren of CP and Madeleine will get HRH and duchies as well.

I agree with you. But I wonder if they'll have no title at all. Will Prince Carl Philip's grandchildren be just Mr/Ms Bernadotte?

The same with the grandchildren of Prince Laurent. Will a noble title be creat for them or will they become Mr/Ms de Saxe-Coburg et Gotha/ de Belgique?

What about the children of Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway? He's already just a Highness, will his children have titles?

Many questions that will need to be answered in the future.

I guess the male-line grandchildren of Prince Joachim of Denmark will be Counts and Countesses of Monpezat.

 

[Marengo]

Re: Al Bina

I would say that he informed with the palace what the best way would be. Perhaps they adviced him on this course of action as they were working on the title change but didn't think they could finish it on time for the wedding?

 

[Blog Real]

Today a new royal decree concerning the title Prince/ss of Belgium was published. The decree aims to limit the number of persons carrying the title.
- All those who carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium will keep it, Princess Esmeralda and Princess Marie-Christine included.
- King Philippe’s and Crown Princess Elisabeth’s future grandchildren will carry the title Prince/ss of Belgium – Gabriel, Emmanuel und Eleonore will pass the title onto their children, but their grandchildren will not be titled.
- Astrid and Laurent’s future grandchildren will not carry the title Prince of Belgium.
- The royal decree form 1991 which granted all descendants of King Albert II the title Prince/ss of Belgium is declared null and void.


IMO it’s a smart and overdue move to limit the access to Belgian royal titles and to highlight that its basically the king and the crown prince/ss who are the core of the RF.


***********


And there’s another royal decree concerning Amedeo’s wedding: On September 20th 2015 Amedeo submitted a formal request to have his wedding authorised by a royal decree. King Philippe and Prime Minister Charles Michel tetroactively granted him consent to his marriage, so he and his future children are in line of throne. So far there’s no decree concerning Elisabetta’s title. And I guess there will be none and she will be addressed with her spouse's titles.

I wonder if Amedeo intended to ask for consent to his marriage from the beginning or if he had a change of mind lately. I found the idea of him aiming for indepencence and not asking for consent much more likeable.


Royal decrees can be found here: Moniteur Belge - Belgisch Staatsblad

Amedeo is still in line to the throne? Elisabetta has title princess?

 

[MAfan]

Amedeo is still in the line of succession to the Belgian throne. As for Elisabetta's Belgian title, nothing has been said on the matter.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

That decree is a smart move, imo. The decree is gender neutral but keeps the number of titled family member within a sensible limit.

Was it just up to the king to issue the decree, or was it done with the approval or cooperation of the government? I keep forgetting: was there a government at the time of Amedeo's wedding? If not, I wonder if that has something to do with him not 'officially' asking approval for his marriage at the time. Maybe the king wanted to sort out the future title questions first. He could have asked Amedeo to wait with the officially asking consent till the matter of the decree was solved.

Btw, I assume that the Swedish King is aiming at a similar concept. Only he does it by conferring individual titles instead of issuing a decree. I really doubt the the grandchildren of CP and Madeleine will get HRH and duchies as well.

There is always a Government. 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. A Government may be outgoing but unless the new Government has been installed, the outgoing Government remains in force. Articles in media like "Belgium is without Government for 200 days" are complete nonsense.

Like in any Constitutional system always and ever a ministerial contraseign is needed. A decision of the King without a contraseign has no jurisdiction and is not covered by the Government.

Belgium has an active nobility. Every year the King grants noble titles or even hereditary nobility. If he can do that to Mrs Jansen, he can do that too to the grandchildren of Prince Laurent. The title Princesse de Réthy is an example.

 

[Mbruno]

Amedeo is still in the line of succession to the Belgian throne. As for Elisabetta's Belgian title, nothing has been said on the matter.

Elisabetta clearly is not a Princess of Belgium in her own right as the title is no longer automatic for consorts of HRHs and no rioyal decree was issued granting her that title. I suppose though that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

As for Amedeo's other titles (archduke of Austria, prince of Hungary and Bohemia, duke of Modena, etc.), they are merely titles of pretense as they are not legally recognized by Austria, Hungary, Italy, or the Czech Republic.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Amedeo is still in the line of succession to the Belgian throne. As for Elisabetta's Belgian title, nothing has been said on the matter.

Like the wife of a Baron can be adressed as Baroness, like the wife of a Viscount can be addressed as Viscountess, so can Donna Elisabetta be called Princess as the legally wedded spouse in a legally approved marriage to a gentleman whom holds the legally recognized titles Prince de Belgique and Archiduc d'Autriche-Este.... So Princess Elisabetta as a titre-de-courtoisie is perfect.

 

[MAfan]

I suppose that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

I do believe the same, although for having a confirmation I think we will have to wait and see how she will be called on the first official occasion that will happen.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Amedeo is still in line to the throne?

The new decree authorizing Amedeo's marriage is worded to retroactively restore his succession rights, having retrospective effect from July 4, 2014 - the day before the marriage.

It may be technically illegal, inasmuch as the Constitution (official English translation) clearly says

Article 85

The constitutional powers of the King are hereditary through the direct, natural and legitimate descent from H.M. Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, by order of primogeniture.

The descendant mentioned in the first paragraph who marries without the King’s consent or, in his absence, without the consent of those exercising the King’s powers in cases provided for by the Constitution shall be deprived of his right to the crown.

Nonetheless, this right may be restored by the King or, in his absence, by those exercising the powers of the King in cases provided for by the Constitution, but only with the assent of both Houses.

Elisabetta clearly is not a Princess of Belgium in her own right as the title is no longer automatic for consorts of HRHs and no rioyal decree was issued granting her that title. I suppose though that, as Prince Amedeo's wife, she can be referred to by the courtesy title of Princess Amedeo.

I agree. She has sent cards using the title "Princess Elisabetta" (see here), but it can only be a courtesy title, for the reason that she is not covered under any royal decree, as you said (unlike princesses Mathilde, Claire, and Léa).

The decree retroactively granting consent to her marriage styles her "Mrs. Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein", which is presumably her legal name and title.


12 NOVEMBER 2015. - Koninklijk besluit houdende instemming met het huwelijk van Zijne Koninklijke Hoogheid Prins Amedeo, Prins van België, met Mevrouw Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

12 NOVEMBRE 2015. - Arrêté royal portant consentement au mariage de Son Altesse Royale le Prince Amedeo, Prince de Belgique, avec Madame Elisabetta Maria Rosboch von Wolkenstein

 

[Stefan]

I agree with you. But I wonder if they'll have no title at all. Will Prince Carl Philip's grandchildren be just Mr/Ms Bernadotte?

The same with the grandchildren of Prince Laurent. Will a noble title be creat for them or will they become Mr/Ms de Saxe-Coburg et Gotha/ de Belgique?

What about the children of Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway? He's already just a Highness, will his children have titles?

The problem in Sweden and Norway is that the respective King's can not create new Titles. They can decide about the Title Prince/Princess and the for the members of the Royal Families and the swedish King can also decide about the Dukeodoms for members of the RF which are personal and not heriditary.

 

[Stefan]

I agree. She has sent cards using the title "Princess Elisabetta" (see here), but it can only be a courtesy title, for the reason that she is not covered under any royal decree, as you said (unlike princesses Mathilde, Claire, and Léa).

She has signed the Card as Elisabetta Maria but not with Princess Elisabetta as far as i cann see in the pic-

 

[Skippy]

She has signed the Card as Elisabetta Maria but not with Princess Elisabetta as far as i cann see in the pic-

Koninklijke Bedankkaartjes 2015 - search for Elisabetta.
Basically the same as the link that Tatiana Maria gave, but still.
If Amedeo only signs with his name, it would probably be a bit strange if Elisabetta would sign with "Princess Elisabetta".