The Monarchy after Elizabeth II


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ysbel

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The monarchy as an institution has undergone many changes in the last century and may be prepared to make many more to adapt and survive in changing times. A most appropriate time for change will come when the current monarch, Queen Elizabeth II, passes away after more than 50 years on the throne and her successor takes the throne. It will be a time for the new King and the government to take stock and possibly make some significant changes to the state of the monarchy.

This thread is to discuss the broad changes you think the monarchy will undergo in the coming years and their possible effects on the institution and the country.

Possible changes include:

  • Smaller royal family with reduced titles for some
  • Cognatic primogeniture
  • Removal of the monarch as Head of the Church (separation btw Church and State)
  • Established provisions for divorces
  • Abolition of the monarchy in some Commonwealth countries
Feel free to introduce other areas where you think changes might be made in the future.

We're looking for discussion of broad systematic changes rather than those affecting a single individual: for example, a discussion of whether the wife of the British King should continue to be called a Queen rather a discussion of whether or not Camilla herself should be crowned Queen without any context of what happens to the consort's title beyond Camilla.
 
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I don't think cognatic primogeniture will become a priority until William or one of his heirs has a daughter as their first-born child. Even then, it won't be something most people worry about unless a subsequent child is a male.

I think it's inevitable that certain Commonwealth Realms (Australia, Barbados, Jamaica) will become republics, but I think that Canada, for instance, won't become one for quite a while, if ever. It's quite hard constitutionally to do it. The House of Commons, Senate, and legislatures of all 10 provinces must agree, which has never happened on any other issue.
 
I also don't think it's a hot-button issue in Canada. I don't see people clamouring to get rid of the crown.

I don't see the royal family getting that much smaller. Charles only has two children. It will be 20-25 years at least before they have children who are ready to take on a royal role.

The Queen's children are associated with many organizations. Some for long periods of time. I don't see them slowing down for a number of years.

In the next few years, the Kents and Glouceters will scale back I think. I'm not sure what kind of role Beatrice and Eugenie will take on.
 
I think Australia will definatley become a Republic and I'll take a guess and say the Royal Family may become smaller maybe along the lines of the Dutch Monarchy.
 
Of all the possible changes listed, my thoughts are that the separation of Church and State would be the very last one, if ever. I doubt the monarch would give up the leadership role in the church no more than the Pope would renounce the 'temporal' power the Church assumed centuries ago. Too much at stake to make it a quick political decision.
 
After reading about what the Norwegian RF family has done, in terms of scaling back the titles, I can see the British RF doing that somewhere along the line. As it stands, the monarch and his/her spouse, their children and the heir's spouse and eldest child all have the title HRH and that's it. Haakon and Mette-Marit's youngest child is just Prince Sverre Magnus.

I would like to see cognatic primogeniture make its way to England, as many other European monarchies have gone to that as well. Denmark probably would have if Fred and Mary had a daughter the first time around, but since their eldest is a boy, they have another generation yet to decide if it's what they want to do.

I think the monarch should NOT be the head of the Church, as I feel it disenfranchises a portion of the population and the sovereign is supposed to serve all his/her people, not just those who are Anglican. In doing this, I think we can finally see Catholics in the line of succession or maybe even on the throne. Catholics can be just as great a ruler as anyone else.
 
I also see cognatic primogeniture in England's future. It is quite possible that William could have a daughter as a first-born, and if that happens, I am sure they would not wait around for a boy.

I agree with Sister Morphine on the fact that a monarch should not be the head of the Church, but as for a Catholic on the throne? The current queen would turn over in her grave when the time comes. lol
 
I think they should do whatever it takes to get rid of the anti-Catholic discrimination which requires people to be removed from the line of succession if they marry a Catholic. I understand the reasoning behind the requirement for the monarch to be a communicant of the established church, but I see no reason beyond tradition to dicriminate against Catholics while not applying the same standard to other religions.
 
On scaling down in titles, maybe our British colleagues can tell us if my assumption is correct. I always viewed the British monarchy and the people of Britain as extremely fond of tradition, their history and sense of belonging. From the solemn Beefeaters to those pet crows they keep in the notorious Tower, everything has a reason to be and to be kept that way. At least that is my perception from the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. The monarchy itself seems to be part of that tradition and devotion for the past, after all, the British Royals can trace their roots to almost the very begining of history.

Elspeth said:
I think they should do whatever it takes to get rid of the anti-Catholic discrimination which requires people to be removed from the line of succession if they marry a Catholic. I understand the reasoning behind the requirement for the monarch to be a communicant of the established church, but I see no reason beyond tradition to dicriminate against Catholics while not applying the same standard to other religions.
How about a simple solution: The monarch is the head of the Church but he or she is allowed to marry a non Anglican and the consort could be allowed to have the option to keep his or her religion?
 
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Elspeth said:
I think they should do whatever it takes to get rid of the anti-Catholic discrimination which requires people to be removed from the line of succession if they marry a Catholic. I understand the reasoning behind the requirement for the monarch to be a communicant of the established church, but I see no reason beyond tradition to dicriminate against Catholics while not applying the same standard to other religions.


If they don't want to separate the CoE from the state, at the very least they can do this.
 
I'm not that fond of cognitive primogeniture.

I think the crown princesses are going to have a harder time finding a husband willing to play second fiddle to them than a crown prince is going to have finding a woman who wants to be his crown princess.

And because its a hereditary system, the marriages and the families have to be healthy and survive.

The Japanese system goes in the absolute opposite direction. Not to allow a woman to ascend the throne under any circumstances causes tremendous problems when the family is all female. But I'm OK with male preference for inheriting the throne as long as it doesn't exclude females and the British system has a long history of allowing women to ascend the throne.
 
on Established provisions for divorces, that looks like it could be the first item to modernize the rules. But I see a problem with the royals closer to the monarch because they have to get permision from the Crown first. Remember the Dukes of Kent couple? The monarch could approve or deny the royals closer to him or her (as the inmediate children and grandchildren) but, as the family grows, the other family members should be let free to divorce if they want to.
 
Sister Morphine said:
Haakon and Mette-Marit's youngest child is just Prince Sverre Magnus.

Though it is quite likely that upon his fathers accession he shall assume the style befitting the son of a sovereign, hence forth being known as HRH Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway.

Where do I see the British monarchy after Elizabeth II?

I really don't know. I mean, I'm sure it shall survive (Australia certain to obtain its rightful sovereign independence) and continue to progress with society (it must), but we will never see another monarch like Elizabeth II, that much is certain imo.
 
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Madame Royale said:
Though it is quite likely that upon his fathers accession he shall assume the style befitting the son of a sovereign, hence forth being known as HRH Prince Sverre Magnus of Norway.


I know this. The point I was trying to make though, is that Norway streamlined their RF so that there aren't multitudes of people with titles floating about.
 
Let's see who has the HRH in Britain at the moment

1) HM the Queen (OK not HRH but higher)
2) HRH The Duke of Edinburgh (spouse of monarch)
3) HRH The Prince of Wales
4) HRH The Duchess of Cornwall
5) HRH The Duke of York
6) HRH The Earl of Wessex
7) HRH The Countess of Wessex
8) HRH The Princess Royal
9) HRH Prince William of Wales
10) HRH Prince Harry of Wales
11) HRH Princess Beatrice of York
12) HRH Princess Eugenie of York
13) HRH The Duke of Gloucester
14) HRH The Duchess of Gloucester
15) HRH The The Duke of Kent
16) HRH The Duchess of Kent
17) HRH Princess Michael of Kent
18) HRH Princess Michael of Kent
19) HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent


However as the Queen's generation die out we will lose - # 1, 2, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

Then we are only left with the Queen's own children - children of the monarch.

Then there are the four grandchildren of the monarch of whom only two can pass on the HRH as they should become the children of the monarch in the furture.

I haven't included Louise as per the Queen's and her parents wish that she be known as Lady Louise. I haven't included Anne's children as they aren't HRH.

My point is that, unless William and Harry have heaps of kids, the number of people with the HRH will decrease naturally over the next two generations as only William and Harry can pass on the HRH.

With the decision to call Louise Lady instead of Princess we are getting a reduction in the HRH but what they aren't doing is removing titles from people intitled to them. I wouldn't be surprised if Harry's children don't have the HRH either.
 
Huddo said:
I think Australia will definatley become a Republic and I'll take a guess and say the Royal Family may become smaller maybe along the lines of the Dutch Monarchy.

The British monarchy has become smaller and more streamlined. There is only a handful of family members currently involved in public duties and about two (?) who are still on the Civil List.
 
Sister Morphine said:
I know this. The point I was trying to make though, is that Norway streamlined their RF so that there aren't multitudes of people with titles floating about.

You may have known it, but that was not the impression you gave. Thanks for clarifying ;)

With the decision to call Louise Lady instead of Princess we are getting a reduction in the HRH but what they aren't doing is removing titles from people intitled to them. I wouldn't be surprised if Harry's children don't have the HRH either.

Thats a very interesting observation, chrissy. I also think this quite possible.
 
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I believe that cognatic primogeniture is absolutely necessary, and that the present system insults women. I hope (since it affects me) to see further reforms of the arms system too so that armigerous women who have married non-armigerous men can pass their arms to their children, differenced like those of younger sons, and that titles in general will change.

We cannot wait, IMO, until a son disinherits a daughter to sort the issue. We should establish it when the present Queen dies as the first three in line at present are all men anyway. This matters far more to me than what a Queen consort is "known as".

All the major monarchies in Europe are bringing in cognatic primogeniture or thnking about it - it is a tide that cannot be stemmed.

I would also favour limiting the HRH. In an age of paparazzi, every HRH is a chance for scandal. Limit it and you limit the possibilities.
 
If it's good enough for Norway, Sweden, Belgium and The Netherlands, it should be good enough for England too. I should add that Denmark had discussed altering the succession laws and Felipe and Letizia leaked the sex of their child before she was born....probably to help spur the debate about changing it over there as well.
 
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chrissy57 said:
I wouldn't be surprised if Harry's children don't have the HRH either.

As the rules currently stand, Harry's children will be Lord and Lady until his father ascends the thrown.
 
yvr girl said:
As the rules currently stand, Harry's children will be Lord and Lady until his father ascends the thrown.


As will any of William's except the eldest son.

I know that but I didn't make it clear that I was refering to when Charles becomes king and they are entitled to be HRH.

When Diana was pregnant with William there was discussion about changing the line of succession for first born but as William was a boy it didn't happen.

I expect the discussion to arise again when William's wife is expecting but don't expect anything to happen until the first born child is a girl.

It would raise too many chances for the anti-monarchists to try to get rid of the monarchy altogether, or make other legislative changes as it would require debates in Parliament and also affects the passing of many other titles.

How fair is it for the throne to pass to females while other titles can only pass to males as it is? e.g. the Duke of York title can't pass to his daughters due to the Letters Patent. Maybe that needs to be considered along with changing who can be the monarch - why shouldn't a title pass to the daughters just because it was the norm in earlier times.

Unless Parliament is to change all inheritance laws I wouldn't support changing the inheritance laws for the monarch and as another poster said I think it would be harder for a Crown Princess to find a man prepared to give up his career etc for her than a Crown Prince to find a girl to give up her career. We still live in a world where the sexes are different and see their worth differently.
 
Sister Morphine said:
I know this. The point I was trying to make though, is that Norway streamlined their RF so that there aren't multitudes of people with titles floating about.

But then Norway does not have an aristocracy, but Britain has. So if they downgrade their Royals where will this end? They can't get fruther down as to "Lady" Louise Mountbatten-Windsor as the girl is the daughter of an earl and any daughter of an earl has the right to use the style of "Lady" in Britain. Once you stop giving the male Royals titles of dukes, you downgrade them into the lower ranks of the nobility while other families keep their higher titles.
 
I'm not just a chromosomal faux pas

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2004/01/19/feat19.xml&page=3

Equality Bill for royal daughters

Every peerage is governed by separate rules of succession depending on the terms of its creation and few allow for female heirs in the way that the monarchy does. (This is what I object to - skydragon).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1996/10/29/nroy29.html

Could British king marry a Muslim?

London - Playwright Alistair Beaton put Prime Minister Tony Blair on trial over the Iraq war. Now he wonders what would happen if a British monarch married a Muslim.

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?from=rss_World&set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1169552520971B216
 
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Whilst the sexes are obviously different, I don't see them as having different worth. Indeed, a reform law for the throne should also cover peerages and arms. It will be a welcome reform and I am sure it will be brought in within the next ten years.
 
Frothy said:
Whilst the sexes are obviously different, I don't see them as having different worth.

I don't either; its obvious the women can do the job as well as men and since its a ceremonial, non-political position without power, one could argue that women can do that type of position better than men.

If it were an elected position with a limited term, I would see no reason why a woman couldn't campaign for the job as well as a man. But a hereditary position for life means that every man knows right off the bat when he meets a crown princess that whoever marries her will take a subservient, powerless role for life. I think men's unwillingness to play second fiddle to a woman in general and especially to a woman in a figurehead role makes it much harder for the crown princesses who will inherit a crown for life to fulfill one of their duties in a hereditary system which is to marry suitably and provide an heir.
 
Again, I do not agree. There is no need or duty to "produce an heir" - there will already be an heir, be it a sister, brother, cousin or whatever. And I think in the modern world most young mothers work too, so the "career" of head of state-ship should no more prevent a sua juris Princess of Wales than it prevented HRH the Duchess of Edinburgh having plenty of princelings...

The man will have plenty of compensations; the love of his wife, the prestige of the inevitable princedom, raising the next monarch, oh, and a life of eternal comfort and luxury. He can have his own charitable "career" as much as he wishes. Ought we to insult young women in order to flatter the egos of men? I think not... I will welcome the reform when it, in my view inevitably, comes in a few years.
 
Frothy said:
Again, I do not agree. There is no need or duty to "produce an heir" - there will already be an heir, be it a sister, brother, cousin or whatever. And I think in the modern world most young mothers work too, so the "career" of head of state-ship should no more prevent a sua juris Princess of Wales than it prevented HRH the Duchess of Edinburgh having plenty of princelings...

However, that can mean that the throne can be inherited by someone who was not trained for the role. Right now, Prince Albert of Monaco is not married, has no child as heir and there is a lot of speculation surrounding the throne of Monaco because his eldest sister Caroline was never raised to assume the responsibilities and her eldest son Andrea does not look like he's been trained for any responsibilities. Monaco's situation is not the ideal situation.

Also Albert's reputation has also taken a nosedive because of the public's assumption by his single state that he is irresponsible and unwilling to commit which may or may not be true. A crown princess or Queen Regnant that remains unmarried will face even harsher criticism than Albert.
 
I think that Monaco undernines that argument itself. Albert was "trained to rule" and what a disgrace he is! Playboy, ever-changing succession of arm candy, children out of wedlock, attempts to deny paternity until caught by a DNA test... they could hardly have worse, could they?

Caroline appears to be a sober woman in a royal marriage and would make a good heir.

Who in fact is the present heir to Monaco?
 
Heir to Monaco - Caroline followed by her sons then daughter then Stephaine her son and daughter.
 
Frothy said:
I think that Monaco undernines that argument itself. Albert was "trained to rule" and what a disgrace he is! Playboy, ever-changing succession of arm candy, children out of wedlock, attempts to deny paternity until caught by a DNA test... they could hardly have worse, could they?

Caroline appears to be a sober woman in a royal marriage and would make a good heir.

Who in fact is the present heir to Monaco?

Well if Albert undermines the argument of male primogeniture, he also undermines the argument for a hereditary system to begin with because unless you elect a person, there's no guarantee that the heir will live up to the job whether they are a man or a woman.

The idea of a hereditary monarchy is a bit archaic to begin with because hereditary not a person's own worth is the determining factor of who gets the job.

Your argument for cognitive primogeniture changes the nature of the arbitrariness but doesn't change the underlying arbitrary influence of heredity on the system.
 
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