The Habsburgs and Hungary


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Cory

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In order to avoid to speak about hungarian realities on the thread concerning the Restoration of Monarchy in austria I suppose we'd better speak here about all the involment of the Habsburgs in the past and present of Hungary.
Why Archduke George chose to live in Hungary?
Why Archduke George is not against hungarian nationalist movements and against the new Constitution?
How the hungarians look to archduke Georg?Do they consider him a possible King, a politician or just a famous person?
 
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And why hasn't there been any pro-monarchy movement in Hungary in general? The monarchy was restored once before, after WWI. Is it because Hungary hasn't been ruled by its own royal family in so long-since before the Habsburgs?
 
True, the monarchy was restored in 1920, this is from Wikipedia: On 1 March 1920, the National Assembly of Hungary re-established the Kingdom of Hungary, but chose not to recall the deposed King Charles IV (Karoly IV of Hungary) from exile as the return of the Habsburg Emperor on the Hungarian throne was unacceptable to the Entente powers. Instead, with National Army officers controlling the parliament building, the assembly voted to install Horthy as head of state; he defeated Count Albert Apponyi by a vote of 131 to 7.

The Habsburgs are Hungary's Royals. There was a branch of Palatines of Hungary started by AD Joseph, but that family died out. Maybe AD Georg is somehow establishing a Hungarian Royal Family by living there. In a hypthetical restoration I doubt the Hungarian nobility will consider the Habsburgs as foreign.

Excellent idea Cory starting this new thread. I always had the idea that Hungary was less reluctant towards a constitutional monarchy than Austria, but I might be wrong. Last year I read 'Uncrowned Emperor' by Gordon Brook-Shepherd, excellent book by the way, and I got that idea of Hungary being more pro-Habsburg than Austria, but I know nothing about what's going on today.
 
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There are still male descendants of Archduke Joseph.
The present "Head" of this line is Archduke Joseph Arpapd, married to Princess Maria zu Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg.
They have 4 sons who are all married and have also sons.
 
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Maybe the hungarians would try to use the name of the "Crown" only to have influence over the hungarians in the neighbouring countries.Serious thoughts of the Restoration of Habsburgs are not seen.
 
Based on the information I've read Hungarian nobilty always had brilliant opportunuties regarding career and marriages(that it was even before they joined the Empire).I think that the first reason of their ascension was a common religion with other kingdoms,that was Catholicism.
More information here on a religious ceremony in Hungary:

http://www.noblesseetroyautes.com/nr01/2011/07/archiduc-otto-ceremonie-en-hongrie/
 
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Many of the properties of the hungarian nobility were not giver back.

Only a part of the hungarian nobles are catholics, the rest are protestant (especially calvinist).
 
Cory said:
Maybe the hungarians would try to use the name of the "Crown" only to have influence over the hungarians in the neighbouring countries.Serious thoughts of the Restoration of Habsburgs are not seen.
Click to expand...

No. I am convinced that the nationalist movement is far from being royalist. I think whenever they talk about 'neighbouring countries' they never mean a crowned head (let's not get in this topic, though).

I believe much of the popularity of the Monarchy as good old times comes from the fact that Austria-Hungary was a considerable power in Central Europe. At the same time these voices forget how oppressive the very Monarchy was towards minorities and the lower classes. Let's not forget how many times Hungarians or rather the Magyars (the two words definitely not meaning the same) revolted against Habsburg rule before the Compromise in 1867 and how many times they dethroned them...

Otto was regarded as some kind of representative of the good old days and later much loved for his own personality. When Georg started appearing in the media when he moved to Hungary, and revoked royalist feelings, I think it was because of the personality of his father and the nostalgia again (do not forget, it was a few years after the fall of the iron curtain). His wedding did cause some hysteria, as it put Hungary back in the royal map of Europe but I as far as I can remember people were looking for Prince Albert and Prince Felipe in the basilica during the ceremony ;)

In the past years he did not appear much and I believe it's kind over with the passing of Otto - very much like in Austria, a chapter in history closed.
 
 
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Stefan said:
There are still male descendants of Archduke Joseph the present "Head" of this line is Archduke Joseph Arpapd married to Princess Maria zu Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg. They have 4 sons who are all married and have also sons.
Click to expand...

Non the less they are just a cadet branch of the Habsburgs while Georg is the younger brother of the Head of the family.
 
The Habsburgs are here in Hungary not important people (anymore). I know who Archduke Georg is, because I am interested on royalty, but I think the most people here don't recognize him. I think the hungarian people saw the Habsburgs as foreign royals and not really accept them. When we should become a monarchy again, than I think the most people would choose an ancient Hungarian aristocrat-family... But the most of them live abroad, and I don't think that they would live here... :)
 
I agree with you, Fortimo.
I visited in Budapest the historical Museum and was really impressed by Imre Nagy !
No-body knows ambitious Archduke Georg who seems not be happy to be the N° 2.
Do you have nowadays a lot of aristocrat families whose portraits I saw in your Museum?
 
We had in the past very much aristocrats: barons, earls, dukes and from the history we know also the most important names of the hungarian nobility: Almássy, Battyhány, Bánffy, Esterházy, Festetics, Hunyady, Széchenyi, Zichy, Teleki etc. And I am sure, that this families have also todays descendants, but they are here in Hungary not well known. About a few we know what they do (for example the writer Péter Esterházy - Esterházy Péter - Wikipédia, http://translate.google.hu/translat....wikipedia.org/wiki/Esterh%C3%A1zy_P%C3%A9ter, but the most are unknown.
They lost after the worldwar their properties, goods, and after a law it was not allowed to use their titles (1947/IV.: 1947. évi IV. törvény - Wikipédia, Google Fordító).
They couldn't study if it come out that they are from the nobility!!
It was very hard with them, the most families emigrated.
So I think here in Hungary don't live so much aristocrats...
 
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What a difficult situation your country had.
Fortimo your thread was very interesting it goes about a situation we can't believe in our countries.
I sincerely hope time is easier now and that the everyday life is comfortable . Kind regards from MO
 
Thanks for your kind words. Yes, we had a "turbulent" history and often really difficult and hard past. But now is more easier and I hope for me, for my children and for my country, that our future will be more relaxed and predictable. Best regards..
 
Very interesting thread. Thank you, Fortimo. I join Maria Olivia's sentiments.
 
Count Maximilian von Habsburg (b.7 July 1974) [son of Archduke Geza of Austria (Palatine of Hungary line) (b.1940) by his first wife, Monica Decker (b.1939)] married Arabella Stafford Northcote (b.1975) [oldest of five children of Hugh Cecil Camden Stafford Northcote (b.1938) & his wife Hillary Jane, nee Evans]on 17 August.

Sources: http://www.nettyroyal.nl/ Genealogical News 2013
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/gotha/gotha/austria.html
http://www.thepeerage.com/p33019.htm#i330190
Archduke Géza of Austria - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
In Hungary the Habsburgs created over 100 new titles of nobility between 1606 and 1657.
​
The present members of the Batthyany family bear the title of Graf/Grafin Batthyany von Nemet-Ujvar.
​
 
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fortimo said:
So I think here in Hungary don't live so much aristocrats...
Click to expand...

They voted before for a noble over a Habsburg before and there are still noble options. Moving to Hungary might not help Georg that much with at least the Esterhazys and Zichys seeming to live there. Istvan Horthy, the heir of the last monarch was born in Hungary while his grandfather was still Regent so elder Hungarians may be familiar at least with his existence .

Heirs to Regent
Horthy - István 1941 (grandfather was Kormányzó (Regent) of Hungary (1920-44), father was Alkormányzó (lieut-governor)) who has 3 sons Leonhard 1961, Henry 1965, and Stuart 1971 (England?)
Horthy de Nagybnya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/István_Horthy,_Jr.

Heirs to Runner-up
Apponyi - Rudolf 1940, Alfred 1941, Alexander 1971, Constantin 1977
(Frankfurt?) Apponyi 3

Princely House
Esterházy - Antal 1936 (Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Hungarian Institute for Environmentally Sound Economic Development in Eastern Europe), son Pál-Antal 1986,
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/hung/esterhazy2.html
Geboren im 20ten Jahrhundert
The Heirs of Europe: Esterh�zy (Hungary?)

Counts
Almásy - Denes 1963, Antal 65, Ferenc 95, Miklos 67, Kristof 95, László 97
(Belgium?) Almsy 2
Battyhány - Ladislaus 1938, Ladislaus 1970, Dominik 1971 (Vienna?)
Batthyny 3
The Heirs of Europe: Batthy�ny
Festetics - György 1940, Tasziló 1978, György 84 (Kitzbühel, Austria?)
Festetics de Tolna 3
The Heirs of Europe: Festetics
Hunyady - Jozsef 1962 (Katalin Almásy de Zsadány et Törökszentmiklós 1969) Istvan 1968 (Alexandra zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn ) Laszló 2009
Hunyady de Kthely (Tuscany?)
Széchenyi - Bertalan 1937, Kristóf 1967 (United States?)
Szchenyi 3
Teleki - Pál 1937, Geza 1943, Aidan 1995 (United States?)
Teleki 2
Zichy - Peter 1924, Mihály 1961, Pál 1988, Ferenc 1992, Gergely 1996 (Hungary?) Zichy 3
 
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Archduke Maximilian of Austria (b. 1974), youngest son of Archduke Geza of Austria (himself son of Archduke Joseph Franz and Princess Anna of Saxony) and his first wife Monika Decker, and his wife, nee Arabella Stafford Northcote (b. 1975), became parents of a son, Charles, this year.

He is the first child for the couple, who married last year, and the 6th grandchild for the paternal grandparents.

Source: Descendants of Archduke Franz Karl of Austria
 
:previous:
Maximilian was born of a morganatic marriage and later raised to comital rank but I don't think he's an archduke.

The baby's full name is Charles Benedict István.
 
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Marengo said:
Interview in German with Archduke Eduard, son of Archduke Michael and Archduchess Christiane:

Erzherzog trifft Prinzessin - KURIER.at
Click to expand...

It is about the Series Wo grafen schlafen (Where Counts sleep) which is shown at the Moment in servus.tv. In it the Archduke and Jessica Schwarz visit a Castle owned by a Count or other noble.
The parts whioch have already shown can be viewed here: Wo Grafen schlafen Jeden Donnerstag um 20:15 Uhr - Alle Informationen auf ServusTV.com
 
Actually there is a paradox situation. In Hungary the nobile titles aren't allowed to use, and never any of the former properties were given back. Even Prince Antal Esterházy can use aparments in the Palace of Fertőd just with the permission of the Hungarian state. Or another story I heard, that a former Zichy Palace was renovated to a hotel, and the last owner of the palace, the old Count Zichy wanted to visit the building during the renovation, and they didn't let him in, and denied it very rudely. After the hotel was ready, they wanted to invite him to the opening party as a celebrity, to show everybody the "Count" - of course he refused to attend after the previous incident.

The situation in Transylvania, now part of Romania, is totally other: the Transylvanian nobility can get back not just the buildings, but even estates (lands, and more important: forest), and a couple of families are already returned and had some very nice process to rebuild the former palaces: Count Kálnoky, Baron Bánffy in Fugad, Count Teleki in Gernyeszeg, Count Horvath-Tholdy and others. But there is rather problems with the local authorities, which try to hinder the restoration of the estates...

I think Archduke Georg/György von Habsburg rather represents the Imperial Family's cultural and historical contribution to the Hungarian history. He often attends historian conferences and charity events. I don't think that he has deep political expectations. Of course once he was nominated as a European Union MP candidate (probably in 2010), but only by a little party, and were rumours about his candidation to presidency of Hungary, but I don't doubt, that he can treat these rumours or even actual asks on their right place.
 
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