The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 9: August 2023 -

[Chimene]

Yup. All he’s succeeding in doing is exposing and highlighting the corruption that exists in the environment he’s swimming in. Everyone with an iota of integrity and credibility ran away from him a long time ago.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Whether you agree with Harry receiving the award or not, Pat Tillman's concern that he is too controversial and divisive a figure has certainly borne true when you see the furious discussions taking place, not least in this thread.

For me, I look behind the scrum to peer at the machinations of the PR machines organising these things, and their work is pretty clear.

Pat Tillman is dead, so he has nothing to say about the issue. A hero, in my opinion, doesn't turn his back on his country or his family, and thus I don't think Harry deserves this award. If they want to award Invictus for the good work they do, then award the organization as a whole, not him.

 

[Asteria12]

Whether you agree with Harry receiving the award or not, Pat Tillman's concern that he is too controversial and divisive a figure has certainly borne true when you see the furious discussions taking place, not least in this thread.

For me, I look behind the scrum to peer at the machinations of the PR machines organising these things, and their work is pretty clear.

Apologies, I meant to refer to Pat Tillman's mother!

 

[Alison H]

I see that Marcus Rashford received this award a few years ago. I love Marcus Rashford to bits, and think that the award was well-deserved for his work regarding free school dinners - but, as a Premier League and England international footballer, he is neither an unsung hero nor an American, both of which are comments that people have made about Harry. I assume that no-one complained about his winning it, so, as other people have said, it shows what a divisive figure Harry has become.

 

[Chimene]

I see that Marcus Rashford received this award a few years ago. I love Marcus Rashford to bits, and think that the award was well-deserved for his work regarding free school dinners - but, as a Premier League and England international footballer, he is neither an unsung hero nor an American, both of which are comments that people have made about Harry. I assume that no-one complained about his winning it, so, as other people have said, it shows what a divisive figure Harry has become.

Meghan Markle doesn’t have cachet into anywhere, so it falls on Harry to provide the access required, but he is being devalued by every attempt at grabbing onto relevance. Soon he will no longer be useful. When you have 50,000 in counting signing a petition about your latest stunt, I would say the jig is up. But no, people are now being asked to research the facts before signing… I don’t think you want people to rehash old news because you know… the truth is rather inconvenient.

 

[HenRach Dominion]

I'm still trying to understand what's wrong with Prince Harry personally receiving an award for his work on the Invictus games.

Is it because philanthropic work shouldn't be celebrated and the work itself should be reward enough? Because there are many people who personally get rewarded for their philanthropic work. Heck, the O.B.E. is routinely giving to such people.

Is it because of his high social-economic status that he shouldn't be rewarded? Because Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and Oprah Winfrey, all with much higher social-economic statuses, have been given philanthropic awards before?

Is it because Prince Harry was born a prince of Great Britain and the British Royal Family doesn't receive awards? Not only is that not the case (King Charles for example: List of awards received by Charles III - Wikipedia), Prince Harry represents no one but himself and his projects, so why should he be beholden to that, especially since other family members have won awards before?

Is it because Invictus started while Prince Harry was a working royal? Even the BRF considered Invictus a private patronage of Prince Harry, which is why he got to keep it, so why should great emphasize be put on that point when even the BRF didn't?

Is it because Invictus should have be awarded solely? Unfortunately, not many people know Invictus outside of Prince Harry, and if the organizations wants more eyes, patrons, participants, and donations, why would they hide away their most visible member and not put his name forward when they have no other similarly famous face?

Is it because Prince Harry has been working for himself, his wife, his children, and his personal causes rather than the British people and gets accolades in spite of "backstabbing" the BRF/Great Britain two years ago?

 

[Durham]

It’s because no one in the rf should be given awards for philanthropy None of them. Ever.

It’s not right. It’s like giving the pope an award for services to religion.

What these various awards to H.Windsor do illustrate is the rather unsavoury & murky world of celebrity back slapping.

 

[shady lady]

I'm still trying to understand what's wrong with Prince Harry personally receiving an award for his work on the Invictus games.

Is it because philanthropic work shouldn't be celebrated and the work itself should be reward enough? Because there are many people who personally get rewarded for their philanthropic work. Heck, the O.B.E. is routinely giving to such people.

Is it because of his high social-economic status that he shouldn't be rewarded? Because Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, and Oprah Winfrey, all with much higher social-economic statuses, have been given philanthropic awards before?

Is it because Prince Harry was born a prince of Great Britain and the British Royal Family doesn't receive awards? Not only is that not the case (King Charles for example: List of awards received by Charles III - Wikipedia), Prince Harry represents no one but himself and his projects, so why should he be beholden to that, especially since other family members have won awards before?

Is it because Invictus started while Prince Harry was a working royal? Even the BRF considered Invictus a private patronage of Prince Harry, which is why he got to keep it, so why should great emphasize be put on that point when even the BRF didn't?

Is it because Invictus should have be awarded solely? Unfortunately, not many people know Invictus outside of Prince Harry, and if the organizations wants more eyes, patrons, participants, and donations, why would they hide away their most visible member and not put his name forward when they have no other similarly famous face?

Is it because Prince Harry has been working for himself, his wife, his children, and his personal causes rather than the British people and gets accolades in spite of "backstabbing" the BRF/Great Britain two years ago?

With respect HenRach, I think you have all the information you need both here and elsewhere, and it is very clear why people are objecting. It really doesn't require further explanation IMO. For example here is a quote from someone else who signed the petition which is being widely circulated:

"Pat Tillman sacrificed his life for duty and country! Harry walked away from duty and country & spit on his commander in chief, country, duty & family on his way out."

That's just one of the many comments online that explain why PH is unworthy of this award. I'd also refer you to my previous post #2802 where I quote Pat Tillman's mother's response, which again summarises most clearly why he should not be receiving it.

And again, with the greatest of respect HenRach, to dig deeper into the many good reasons why PH is unworthy of the award, whilst they are all very valid and relevant, would deviate from the thread rules. It would also be a response of such length that it would give War and Peace a run for its money!

 

[Elenath]

"Pat Tillman sacrificed his life for duty and country! Harry walked away from duty and country & spit on his commander in chief, country, duty & family on his way out."

I don't understand this requirement for him to stick with his family, country and duties no matter what that means, or does, to him. It's family and a job not slavery. He felt it wasn't the right place for him and he has the right to feel that way and act on it.
Plenty of people move away from their family and their country and it doesn't negate all the good they do.
I also don't understand why people can't differentiate their feelings for Harry as a person from his hard work for Invictus (for instance).
I neither like nor dislike Charles, but I do recognise he has so much for the environment in the UK. Despite his habit of flying private aircrafts.

Thankfully whether a bunch of people online think Harry is unworthy of this award is moot. ESPN has decided he is and that's all that matters. It's their award, they can give it to whomever they like.

 

[Durham]

This conversation is going round in circles.

Some of us posters here in Britain have tried to explain what the issue is.

I don't think we should bother anymore. It's a waste of time.

 

[shady lady]

I don't understand this requirement for him to stick with his family, country and duties no matter what that means, or does, to him. It's family and a job not slavery. He felt it wasn't the right place for him and he has the right to feel that way and act on it.
Plenty of people move away from their family and their country and it doesn't negate all the good they do.
I also don't understand why people can't differentiate their feelings for Harry as a person from his hard work for Invictus (for instance).
I neither like nor dislike Charles, but I do recognise he has so much for the environment in the UK. Despite his habit of flying private aircrafts.

Thankfully whether a bunch of people online think Harry is unworthy of this award is moot. ESPN has decided he is and that's all that matters. It's their award, they can give it to whomever they like.

Ah, but I don't believe PH works hard for Invictus. Other people are doing the hard work for him, and always have done IMO; that's why it should be the Invictus Games as a whole that receives the award.

Moreover, it's not just about H&M leaving, it's also about how they left, as the quote I borrowed (and you quoted) says; however I'm not going to be drawn into breaking thread rules by expanding on this point

At the time of writing "the bunch of people" has reached over 54k and is rising. Of course ESPN can give it to PH - he will accept it, and I would not expect any different; however it is good to see so many people objecting to it - and Pat Tillman's mother is one of them.

This conversation is going round in circles.

Some of us posters here in Britain have tried to explain what the issue is.

I don't think we should bother anymore. It's a waste of time.

I quite agree; I don't think any further explanations are necessary!

Edited to add: it's worth remembering that many Americans and people from elsewhere feel the same, not just us here in the UK.

And on that note I am going to resume my packing as I am on holiday next week.

Have a good evening everyone

 

[Chimene]

I’m never one to back away from a debate, and I love nothing more than to elaborate and provide context, but yeah, let’s not purposely get this thread closed again.

 

[Toledo]

I’m never one to back away from a debate, and I love nothing more than to elaborate and provide context, but yeah, let’s not purposely get this thread closed again.

I have to say this couple and their antics can raise the temperature in here at any given moment. Every time I hope for something positive to happen that will help renew their credibility and respect another public relations moment backfires and makes us thing is this for real? How is he even nominated to an award considering his track record and the comments he made about opposing soldiers?

But it's a done deal and he is going to get the award and photo ops and I still hope when he goes on stage the emphasis is about acknowledging the people that made Invictus happen and invited him to be the front person. That, if it happens, will be a kind moment if he gives credit to those putting the hard work to organize these events for the veterans. Would that be too much to ask?

And do I hope Meghan doesn't go on stage with him. Would that be too much to ask?

 

[HenRach Dominion]

Hey, break-ups happen. They are often very painful, especially if you feel the other person has wronged you and continues to live a decent life while you have to pick up the pieces left behind. You can decide to stay angry and wallow in what they’ve done to you, or you can move on.

 

[Ghost]

Decent?

 

[Chimene]

I have to say this couple and their antics can raise the temperature in here at any given moment. Every time I hope for something positive to happen that will help renew their credibility and respect another public relations moment backfires and makes us thing is this for real? How is he even nominated to an award considering his track record and the comments he made about opposing soldiers?

But it's a done deal and he is going to get the award and photo ops and I still hope when he goes on stage the emphasis is about acknowledging the people that made Invictus happen and invited him to be the front person. That, if it happens, will be a kind moment if he gives credit to those putting the hard work to organize these events for the veterans. Would that be too much to ask?

And do I hope Meghan doesn't go on stage with him. Would that be too much to ask?

I don’t know honestly. If ESPN was looking for publicity, well they’ve certainly got it, but I doubt this is the kind of publicity they had in mind.

He’s going to get dressed and accept the award, maybe say something about IG, and pretend nothing happened. She will be there and will hang on to him as she always does. This will be as much her moment if not more so.

Harry seems really confused about why he’s not trusted or liked. Then they will go on another merry go round and on and on. I don’t know why they are paying PR agencies? If that’s all they can come up with, they are wasting their money in my opinion.

They are also perplexed by everyone’s reaction and they want everyone to move on. Nothing happened and nothing to see here. It doesn’t work that way. Your actions follow you until you take the lessons from the experience and self reflect/course correct. They will continue to botch everything until they take responsibility for their actions/mistakes.

As for the fans who are always challenging people who are critical of them. I think what it boils down to is, and I should really speak for myself, we have moral, ethical and philosophical differences. Their values are aligned with mine specifically, and I don’t respect nor do I have the patience or tolerance for two middle aged people who are, to put it politely, very loose with the truth and that’s only one issue.

 

[Curryong]

Jake Wood, 2018 ESPY winner and a vet, has come out and defended Harry getting with award. And he’s not the only one. He spoke live, having served in Afghanistan. And he’s not the only one who agrees that Harry is a worthy recipient.
Tillman winner U.S. Air Force Master Sgt. Israel Del Toro Jr. is all in for Harry having the honor.

Prince Harry's The Perfect Fit For Pat Tillman Award, Past Recipient Says

Prince Harry's a humble, stand-up guy who blends in as just another fellow veteran, making him deserving of the Pat Tillman Award for Service ... a former recipient tells us amid the outrage over ESPN's decision to honor the royal.

www.tmz.com

Pat Tillman Award Recipients Say Prince Harry Deserves the Honor

Prince Harry has key figures in his corner amid the outrage over ESPN's decision to honor him with the Pat Tillman Award for Service -- at least 2 former winners say Harry is definitely deserving.

www.tmz.com

 

[Chimene]

One word, well really three: quid pro quo.

 

[Curryong]

Harry has been reported as being humble many times, by Invictus and Wounded Warriors competitors he has met, fellow servicemen when he was on his helicopter courses, by people in his other charities like WellChild, and by ordinary people he met when on tour.

And as for quid pro quo, as was pointed out in the second video, the organisation in charge of ESPY awards dont have to ask for favours from anyone, let alone past award winners. It’s a prestigious award, and recipients are always very proud to receive it. This organisation doesn’t need publicity.

 

[Elenath]

I'm not a fan and never have been and I agree their leaving could have been handled better, but the hate they seem to get is disproportionate to what has happened. And all of it seems to focus on them. People seem to have forgotten the BRF has been called "the most disfunctional family" for a very long time. In the same way I just can't understand why Meghan needs to forgive her "poor, ailing father" when that idiot keeps selling his story to the media.
But to each their own.

 

[Hallo girl]

Hey, break-ups happen. They are often very painful, especially if you feel the other person has wronged you and continues to live a decent life while you have to pick up the pieces left behind. You can decide to stay angry and wallow in what they’ve done to you, or you can move on.

That is exactly what the RF have done, moved on without Harry.

 

[shady lady]

One word, well really three: quid pro quo.

Yep. Jake Wood's company Team Rubicon received a $250k grant via Archewell courtesy of one of its donors. So it's a given he's going to sing the praises about PH. To quote Mandy Rice-Davies: "Well he would, wouldn't he?"

I like to help people, but I neither want or expect anything in return. The only person I am beholden to is my cat!

 

[Curryong]

There are no financial links between EPSYN and the Archewell Foundation and that is important. The EPSY committee chose Invictus and its founder on merit because for everything the organisation and Harry have done for vets in the last ten years.

They have explained that twice now and Harry will receive it at the award ceremony, regardless of stupid online petitions from whoever or anything else.

I can actually remember a petition of that sort going forth before Harry and Meghan’s wedding to try and stop that and it made no difference whatsoever.

 

[Chimene]

I'm not a fan and never have been and I agree their leaving could have been handled better, but the hate they seem to get is disproportionate to what has happened. And all of it seems to focus on them. People seem to have forgotten the BRF has been called "the most disfunctional family" for a very long time. In the same way I just can't understand why Meghan needs to forgive her "poor, ailing father" when that idiot keeps selling his story to the media.
But to each their own.

I have been very critical of the RF in other posts here and elsewhere. In my opinion, what has happened and is currently happening could have been avoided if they hadn’t afraid of whatever.

All families have their problems. That’s a given. They are dysfunctional at times I will agree, but they are also very united when it matters and important like QEII’s passing. I’ll refrain from touching on certain drama.

We are dealing with two issues here: duty to the monarchy, that’s the work, and loyalty to family, that’s the responsibility of those who represent the monarchy to say nothing of having some gratitude. Harry loves to purposely confuse the two to suit his needs. If you take Monaco for example, they are also dysfunctional, but none of them have ill intentions or at least I don’t see any evidence of it.

I’m going to ignore the word hate. I’ve said it before, it’s simply not useful in terms of advancing and improving understanding of any particular situation or point of view. Criticism of the couple is intense because of current and ongoing conflicts, “where’s Kate?”, “Charles and Kate are the racists”, and the constant “the RF needs to forgive or do xyz”.

It’s ironic that you mention Meghan’s father when she herself, as well as Harry have done the same with Netflix and Spare (Harry’s betrayal is incomprehensible) to the bounty of “120 million dollars”. I’ll stop there because again, the truth is really inconvenient.

What they are desperately trying to do, and going about it the wrong way, is changing public opinion. I don’t share their values and they are not honorable people in my opinion. I think I’m a fairly open minded person, and I’m not inflexible in my outlook. However, as long as I don’t see a change in their behavior and tactics, my opinion of them remains the same. I agree to each their own or you do you!

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

How very sad that it has come to people arguing about whether Harry deserves an award. Of course, we know now that the palace protected him but I’m just remembering how loved he used to be. And I think that is part of why some people are so hurt and angry with and about him. He is just not who some people (myself included) thought him to be.

 

[Chimene]

How very sad that it has come to people arguing about whether Harry deserves an award. Of course, we know now that the palace protected him but I’m just remembering how loved he used to be. And I think that is part of why some people are so hurt and angry with and about him. He is just not who some people (myself included) thought him to be.

What’s sad is he didn’t need an award for relevance then either. I used to like Harry, okay let me be honest, loved the guy, but what I felt back in 2016-2017 was more like disappointment.

I know people are automatically going to think, aha, hater this and racist that. I can argue the fallacy in that characterization using Meghan Markle’s own words. Bref passons…

And here’s a critique of the RF: Oh what a tangled web we weave/When first we practice to deceive, Sir Walter Scott.

He didn’t need just protection, and I agree that too was warranted because he was ripe for the picking, but should also have come with disciplinary actions.

Again, I don’t really know if there weren’t any, but 2016-2018 was preventable because for starters the environment Markle comes from is not compatible with Harry’s. I could elaborate and provide further context/details, but I’m going to adhere to the rules. That is the basic premise where the wheels essentially fell off the cart if you will.

I’m really more upset at myself for failing to see what was really obvious because I had my blinders on and overlooked his antics. I thought he was the fun one, unfussy (that’s a barrel of laugh in hindsight), and not a fuddy duddy like William ().

I refuse to be an apologist for horrible behavior and have since accepted that I was categorically wrong about him. Never judge a book by its cover, and that’s the reason I’m here practicing my critical thinking skills.

 

[HenRach Dominion]

That is exactly what the RF have done, moved on without Harry.

If only others had the grace to move on like the Mountbatten-Windsors have.

Speaking of the ESPY award, ESPN has put out their own statement about Prince Harry winning the award: ESPN Responds to Backlash Over Prince Harry Being Named the Recipient of the Pat Tillman Award at the ESPYs—Including Complaints from Tillman’s Mother Over Harry’s Selection

ESPN defended its choice of Harry in a statement to TMZ Sports, telling the outlet “ESPN, with the support of the Tillman Foundation, is honoring Prince Harry, Duke of Sussex, specifically for the work of The Invictus Games Foundation as it celebrates its 10th year promoting healing through the power of sport for military service members and veterans around the world,” a representative for the network said in a statement. “While we understand not everyone will agree with all honorees selected for any award, The Invictus Games Foundation does incredible work, and ESPN believes this is a cause worth celebrating.”

The chair of the foundation, by the way, is Leadership - Marie Tillman | Pat Tillman Foundation, Tillman's widow. Apparently she had no issue with Prince Harry receiving the award, so do you take the side of his mother or the foundation chaired by his widow? I'm guessing confirmation bias will come into play here.

 

[Toledo]

Deja Vu on the Quid Pro Quos. Didn't we have similar findings over a year ago + when they received a courage valor and grandiosity Award from the hands of a Kennedy family member that was the sister of one of the co-producers involved in the documentary that...caused the reason for the award to be given to them?

And I recall the timing had to match the broadcast, too. Free publicity is always good publicity.

My solution would be instead of the typical self-congratulatory events why not apply for a grant and create their own award to give away to others: The Duchess and Duke (yes, in that sequence) Award for this or that.

Kind of the Nobel Prize live from Montecito with them in royal gowns and tiara to hand out a laser cut glass sculpture of Meghan in the forefront and Harry behind her (yes, in that sequence). And since they are pals with Jeff Bezos he could broadcast it on Prime, too. Just sayin'